EPT[Q] Fungal Growth helping ZvP vs. Deathball? - Page 5
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
Yeah they do have their place if the opponent don't have those units, but ... if he either have ghosts or templars, and he have decent micro, it just seems like so much wasted supply. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Maybe just Fungal *after* the P has forcefielded .. attack with some roaches to force a FF wall, you then have safe 15 seconds to FG the protoss = 3 to 4 fungals. Well that kinda works out awkwardly again, because it requires you sacrificing a bunch of roaches, plus using up a lot of gas on infestors, to try and take out all his sentries. plus, the range is a bit awkward too. sentries have 5 range, forcefields are 4 units wide, so that means if a roach gets forcefielded inside, and sentries are attacking it from max range, the closest you get to them is range 9. which means you can just barely cast a fungal (fungal has range 9), but half the fungal will be wasted. so you end up investing a lot in infestors, and sacrificing a lot of roaches, to try and get half a fungal off on a clump of sentries at the front, and theres just a lot that can go wrong with that. plus, even if it does work, saccing a third of your army in roaches, plus using up 3 infestors to kill the sentries, so a 700 gas investment, thats a lot. even once the sentries are gone, if you spent 700 gas, and had to lose 10-15 roaches to kill of those sentries, its still not really a very awesome trade. I'm talking about a timing windows that relies on 3 (actually 4) FGs with only 2 infestors and without spending the energy upgrade. That's 300 gas. You'd need speed roaches but not tunneling claws or burrow since the whole purpose of my build is to kill the sentries with 3 FGs. I'm aware, I won't be able to kill all of them but i'm pretty sure that'd help a lot especially in the beginning. Im sorry, but you are not making much sense. In the begining of what? of the game? If you want to make an infestation pit, and then 2 infestors, and then let them sit around for over 3 minutes to gather 150 energy, and then use them, thats 5 minutes. thats a TON of time really. thats another thing that makes the infestors not very useful, appart from the whole super heavy on gas part. The fact that the timings for them are all wrong. You cant really get infestors out fast enough for the big gateway pushes, like a 4gate, or a 6gate. They just come too early, its already awkward to get burrow in time for a 6gate if you didnt start burrow within seconds of your lair finishing. and getting infestors out takes ~40 seconds more than getting burrow. Then, after the timing for gateway pushes passed, its possible and quite easy to get infestors, but you cant really use them very easily to be agressive. Thus you have to wait for the next toss push. At which point, he will have coloxen. which render your infestors useless. So you cant get them in time for when you would want them, and by the time you can actually get them, their moment of usefulness, their timing, has already passed. | ||
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
but I also drop 2 in each of his base, and in after the battle while i'm remaxing his workers managed to vanish in thin air. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
The only way FG will work on a protoss army that has colossus in it, is if FG outranges colossus. | ||
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ShamTao
United States419 Posts
[Q] Question threads Ask for help with or against a specific strategy In a [Q] thread you may ask about a specific, situational strategy, whether that is executing it yourself of playing against it. It is very important that you keep these threads specific. A general "How to FE against Zerg?" is not acceptable. This is the most important distinction from the [H] threads. As with [H] thread you must post one or several replays. Post some analysis of the problem, and what you have tried so far. This not only avoids redundant advice but also shows people you have put some effort into this yourself. As with the [H] threads, it makes it a lot easier to help you if you ask a couple of specific questions regarding the strategy you are unsure about. Have you tried any infestor play yourself? I'm curious to see what people can come up with. Please post replays! | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On April 06 2011 00:27 BlasiuS wrote: I was really excited to use FG on protoss more in 1.3, but sadly thermal lance colossus still shut down infestors. You just can't chain fungals on a protoss army that has upgraded colossus in it, since they have the same range as FG. And since they die in 3 colossus hits, if there's 3+, you'll lose an infestor every time you try to use a fungal. The only way FG will work on a protoss army that has colossus in it, is if FG outranges colossus. The idea is you chain the fungals while rushing the deathball with Roaches, not running in and trying to get a fungal in then backing off. At the very least, a few fungals will go off if the Colossus focus down the Infestors fast with good micro, but then you have tons of Roaches in their face that weren't hit by the Colossus yet, and your army is trapped. And I think people are missing that point that this kind of tactic totally nullifies any kind of Gate + Immortal or Stargate pressure. Essentially, if you get Infestors, Protoss has to get either HT's or Colossus to deal with it. At least this has been my experience as a Protoss player. Really I think it is the ultimate counter to the 5 or 6 gate push. Get burrow and tunneling claws, then get infestors and attack before too many Colossus are out. The metagame was Gateway + Colossus (Void Ray sometimes too) vs Roach/Hydra/Corrupter, then people stopped making Hydras because they die so quick to Colossus (and Corrupters can take down the Void Rays), so Protoss responded by not making as many Colossus and focusing on Immortals. This would naturally see Zergs moving back to Hydras, but Infestors seems to be a better choice to me now, relegating Hydras to an anti-air only role in situations where Protoss rushes to Stargate tech. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
You just can't chain fungals on a protoss army that has upgraded colossus in it, since they have the same range as FG. well actually, fungal has a range closer to 8 than 9. You can fungal a unit that is 10 range away, at the very edge of your fungal. But if you want to get a full fungal off, and not half a fungal, then you need to move to 8 range of his army and not 9. ![[image loading]](http://img827.imageshack.us/i/infestorrange.jpg/) here it is in pictures. range 10 to fungal a unit, range 9 to get off half a fungal, and the actual range 8 if you want to get a full fungal off. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
And I think people are missing that point that this kind of tactic totally nullifies any kind of Gate + Immortal or Stargate pressure. Essentially, if you get Infestors, Protoss has to get either HT's or Colossus to deal with it. At least this has been my experience as a Protoss player. people arent really missing the point on the fact that it nullifies gateway units that are alone or with immortals pretty well. We know that. But the fact that you can nullify gateway pushes is not all that useful in a real game, simply because the point at which you actually can get out enough infestors and still have an army, is much later than when gateway pushes would actually be happening. see, its kind of the same reason why people are using hydras less now. a big roach-hydra army, with roach speed, hydra range, and a couple of upgrades, is incredibly awesome against gateway armies. Unfortunately, a 6gate will arrive before you can get all that up, so if you did invest in hydras, the investment doesnt pay off fast enough, and you end up dead. So instead, people go for roaches with burrow. Not because roaches with burrow are incredibly awesome against gateway armies, compared to roaches with infestors, or roaches with hydras. roaches with infestors or hydras would actually be superior in holding off gateway armies, but you cant get them up in time, thats why people go for roaches with burrow instead. if you want to think of it differently: roaches with broodlords would do pretty damn well against a pure gateway army without blink. why do people not get roaches with broodlords to hold off a 6gate? because you cant get the broodlords up in time. its the same thing with infestors or hydras. in short: infestors are great at negating gateway armies that dont have high templars or colossi in them, but they arrive at a time when pure gateway armies are gone, and the toss either killed you, tried to kill you and failed and is way behind, or is getting colossi/templars. And if he killed you, its too late. if you held off the big gateway push without infestors, you didnt need infestors. and if hes teching, then the infestors are useless again. another different example of timings: speedling-baneling would be an incredibly awesome and easy way to hold off a 2rax. but it just doesnt come in time, so thats why people dont defend 2rax with speedling baneling, not because its bad. infestors are good at what they do, but they do it at the wrong time. compare that to ZvZ instead, and there, infestors are great. Why? because by the time you can get infestors, your opponent will have roaches, roach-hydra, or roach-infestor, and wont even be close to getting ultras or broodlords. So in ZvZ, they actually arrive in time to fight the units they need to fight, and before the units that counter them. in ZvP, they dont arrive in time to fight the units they are good against, and they arrive just as your opponent is getting the counter unit. thats why they arent used all that much. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On April 06 2011 00:59 BronzeKnee wrote: The idea is you chain the fungals while rushing the deathball with Roaches, not running in and trying to get a fungal in then backing off. At the very least, a few fungals will go off if the Colossus focus down the Infestors fast with good micro, but then you have tons of Roaches in their face that weren't hit by the Colossus yet, and your army is trapped. this doesn't solve the problem of forcefields though. You can't just 'rush the deathball' without proper positioning, FG doesn't change that at all. If you try to run in with your army to tank for your infestors, you'll end up losing units. Try to do this a few times and you'll lose half your army trying to get off a few fungals. Not worth it. I was eager to try and chain FG on units to soften the army before I engage. That's not possible. Also if you're up against colossus without corruptors, you're probably going to die. I'm not completely anti-infestor yet, but I'm still very skeptical. I'd need to see some consistent play with infestors before I'm convinced. My experience has shown that they don't help against a stalker/sentry/colo much more than they did before 1.3. They help somewhat better vs a colo/void army since voids stack easily with each other and with colossus, but then again there's the issue of colossus killing your infestors as they run in and use fungal. I also have not seen hardly any good ZvP games where infestors were used to great effect vs a maxed protoss army. IdrA v Huk on crossfire showed some sweet infestor use, but that's just 1 game, and it wasn't really used late-game against a large protoss army. | ||
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Uhhmm
Sweden19 Posts
On April 05 2011 19:40 theLiminator wrote: Are chained fungals with slings blings and ultras feasible? I think it might just smash the deathball? It would require good flanking, but It could be REALLY deadly. Baneling/ultra is really strong, but I'm not sure what the infestors role in this would be. He can't outrun blings anyway (unless he blinks), and they kill stuff so fast the FG would just go to waste. I'd rather get more blings or corruptors or something. I have the same feelings about the new infestors as most others here. Amazing against alot of stuff that protoss either builds to early or doesn't build at all -- meh against the lategame deathball -- and a bit OP against terran (which was a fairly balanced matchup they didn't need to touch). | ||
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giuocob
United States149 Posts
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Grantler
United States228 Posts
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mazqo
Finland368 Posts
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
Vs smaller blink stalker armies i feel like the change has been a real nerf, by the time my lings surround those stalkers the 4 seconds are over and they blink again. Vs marines - to be honest, if my opponent invests as much gas in medivacs as i do in infestors he still wins and barely ever loses much (medivacs still outheal fungal on single targets), also a small group of 3-4 stimmed marines can kill my infestors sooo fast (and fungal on 3 marines is most of the time a waste of energy). I always thought to make their dps vs healed/repaired units significant fungal should prevent any healing/repearing on the fungaled unit (with 8 seconds duration). This would really help vs bio armies late game, would prevent mass repaired thors etc. and would allow one full energy infestor to take out a drop of 8 marines by himself. As it is now, you have to have a spine as well because your fungals will kill only about 5 marines max and the remaining will still shred your expo. Also fungal should fully penetrate shields but with the 8 seconds duration (so same dps as half penetration on 4 seconds duration). After all i want my infestors to help getting a nice surround/prevent the enemy from kiting and bind the opponent on his current position, not a pseudo-storm. And last but not least i think infestors are too big of a unit. Their size doesn't help to prevent getting emped when clumped up but in fact makes them so much easier to spot for the opponent. I sometimes have a hard time to see HT in my opponents Deathball between Zealots, sentries (have energy bars as well), Colossi and Void rays. Ghosts can hide in groups of marines or just cloak. But infestors? If burrowed, they can't cast NP/Fungal and if not burrowed - well they make up for half of my visual army size so you can't miss them. I really hope for them to get smaller in the future. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
On April 06 2011 01:08 morimacil wrote: well actually, fungal has a range closer to 8 than 9. You can fungal a unit that is 10 range away, at the very edge of your fungal. But if you want to get a full fungal off, and not half a fungal, then you need to move to 8 range of his army and not 9. here it is in pictures. range 10 to fungal a unit, range 9 to get off half a fungal, and the actual range 8 if you want to get a full fungal off. that's crazy. probably why they reverted the projectile change too then, as you would have to be even closer as to not miss. | ||
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Drae
70 Posts
For me, the changes to FG are definitely a buff for ZvP, and make infestors stronger, mostly in the late game. The buff to FG is not strong enough for infestors to be a mid game option for me. I just dont think any decent protoss is going to let you live until you have pathogen up, and a decent number of infestors. The longstanding issues are also still there, they are large, slow and have low HP. I think that ling / roach / bane + drops is still the strongest mid game option on most maps. For late game, Infestors are definitely a good option now, as they work well with the above comp, or with any brood based comp. Still pretty early days for the new patch, so any analysis should be taken with a grain of salt. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On April 03 2011 12:27 themell wrote: The problem is that most people only get 1 or 2 infestors. At those numbers, you won't even be able to bypass shields. For infestors to work, you need more than a couple. If you only use 1 or 2 FGs, then the P deathball will just retreat and let the shields recharge. I see infestors with FG as the most cost effective against protoss atm. Also, another problem I see with zergs is that they group their infestors with the rest of their army, and then proceed to A move in. Infestors then rush forward and die. This. Everyone does this, WHY. DIMAGA did this vs MVP ~_~ They should be on a separate hotkey, possibly auto-following your roaches or hydras, but never in your 1A group. The real strength of fungal vs Protoss death-ball comes when you start chain-casting it. 1 fungal tickles the shields, 6 fungals locks down a pile of stalkers and void rays and there's no hope of escape. I actually think we're going to start seeing much more than "2-3" infestors in a group - more like 5-6 - enough that you have the energy required to lock down a part of the ball and just laugh as you chain-cast fungal til it all dies. You still need corruptors so they dont just lead with colossi to prevent infestors from getting in range. (If they do? Then you get to pick them off. Victory anyway!) Really, when you have corruptors out, is the protoss gonna stick his colossi in the front of his army so that they "counter infestors" ? No... If they do you just get free colossi kills which is what you want in the first place and you don't even need much fungal. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On April 06 2011 00:59 BronzeKnee wrote: The idea is you chain the fungals while rushing the deathball with Roaches, not running in and trying to get a fungal in then backing off. At the very least, a few fungals will go off if the Colossus focus down the Infestors fast with good micro, but then you have tons of Roaches in their face that weren't hit by the Colossus yet, and your army is trapped. And I think people are missing that point that this kind of tactic totally nullifies any kind of Gate + Immortal or Stargate pressure. Essentially, if you get Infestors, Protoss has to get either HT's or Colossus to deal with it. At least this has been my experience as a Protoss player. Really I think it is the ultimate counter to the 5 or 6 gate push. Get burrow and tunneling claws, then get infestors and attack before too many Colossus are out. The metagame was Gateway + Colossus (Void Ray sometimes too) vs Roach/Hydra/Corrupter, then people stopped making Hydras because they die so quick to Colossus (and Corrupters can take down the Void Rays), so Protoss responded by not making as many Colossus and focusing on Immortals. This would naturally see Zergs moving back to Hydras, but Infestors seems to be a better choice to me now, relegating Hydras to an anti-air only role in situations where Protoss rushes to Stargate tech. Very good observations here and this is how I've started to play as well. I saw ret's stream the other day and he played like this too. In one game the toss went for a 3 gate expand directly into VRs/phoenixes. Ret's response was getting hydras early on. As he spotted the robo bay he made enough roaches to stop a VR/single collosus poke and then he eventually switched to infestors. What I like about this build is you can tech to hive a lot earlier and you can still survive a 3 collosus push (with some corrupters) or any VR/collosus builds. Plus as you said, it allows for a tunneling claw opening which will defend a 5 or 6 gate long enough for you to get infestors to roll him. | ||
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