EPT[Q] Fungal Growth helping ZvP vs. Deathball? - Page 7
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ZionsWrath
United States121 Posts
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On April 08 2011 02:19 kcdc wrote: Disagree completely. I don't think I've won a PvZ where Z has gotten a decent number of infestors out. I had a game where I was up a base the entire game (even bases is often considered to be advantage: P), ahead in food (Z should be ahead in an even game), and got completely rolled by ~6 infestors. Colossi with range aren't a counter. Templar feedback is 100% necessary, but it's not a proper counter since you wind up spending as much gas on tech and templar as Z spent on infestors. Storm sucks against roaches so you don't get much value out of the templar beyond defending the infestors, and since Z typically has access to more gas, it's a losing trade for P. I'm not going to call infestors imbalanced because it's too early and I need to work out responses, but against standard P play styles, infestors are really freaking good. I'd love to see that replay, I've had a hard time finding good ZvP replays making good use of infestors, where the zerg isn't a level or two above the Protoss skill wise. Even I, merely a high diamond, have had nice games with infestors, only to watch the replay and relealize the Protoss never used Chronoboost, or only made 4 gateway on 2 base. I think the day of the infestor is on its way but their proper usage has yet to be mastered. Here are a few things I think players haven't really figured out, that will change the metagame once they are discovered: #1 - Unit composition What units synergize with infestors best? How many infestors should I make for a given unit composition? At what point do I abandon/pursue infestors, based on the enemy's composition? Are they best used alone (commando style), in small groups (multi-prong attacks), or as part of the main army? #2 - Energy Management I've seen quite a few games where the Zerg burns 100% of infestor energy during a single battle, but then loses to a follow up attack. How should energy be managed when using infestors? Should some infestors be left back at base to charge up energy, and/or ensure a charged infestor is available for the 2nd battle? At what point are there too few enemy units where I decide to NOT cast fungal, and simply run away? #3 - Timing Do I rush to infestors or add them in during late game? Do I slowly add them to my army, or make many at once? #4 - Use as Harassment If I have 4 infestors, do I keep them with my main army, or send 1 or 2 to harass expansions? If I harass should I favor Fungal Growth, Infested Terran or both? Should I use Infested Terran to snipe tech, depots, or go for harvesters? Should I try to burrow my infestors into position, or lob infested terran over a cliff (into the main for instance, on Slag Pits, with the aid of an Overlord for vision). Are ventral sacs going to be much help here? #5 - Spell Selection Should all energy be saved just for fungal, or can we identify situations where it is better to use Infested Terran or Neural Parasite? In late, late game, and I have 8 infestor with full energy, should I consider using them to make 64 infested terran? Is there something to be worked out here in regards to using infested terran as a form of late game supply efficiency? (infestor at full energy, 1 infested terran "costs" 1/4 of a supply). #6 - Infestor Preservation How reckless do we want to be with infestors? Are they worth sac'ing for a decent fungal? Can we find techniques to keep them alive? In what situations do we decide that they are too expensive too risk on certain types of missions? Should infestors in the main army be kept burrowed most of the time, or unburrowed so they can move faster? | ||
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Kreos.Z
United States37 Posts
On April 08 2011 03:35 Johnny_Vegas wrote: I'd love to see that replay, I've had a hard time finding good ZvP replays making good use of infestors, where the zerg isn't a level or two above the Protoss skill wise. Even I, merely a high diamond, have had nice games with infestors, only to watch the replay and relealize the Protoss never used Chronoboost, or only made 4 gateway on 2 base. I think the day of the infestor is on its way but their proper usage has yet to be mastered. Here are a few things I think players haven't really figured out, that will change the metagame once they are discovered: #1 - Unit composition What units synergize with infestors best? How many infestors should I make for a given unit composition? At what point do I abandon/pursue infestors, based on the enemy's composition? Are they best used alone (commando style), in small groups (multi-prong attacks), or as part of the main army? #2 - Energy Management I've seen quite a few games where the Zerg burns 100% of infestor energy during a single battle, but then loses to a follow up attack. How should energy be managed when using infestors? Should some infestors be left back at base to charge up energy, and/or ensure a charged infestor is available for the 2nd battle? At what point are there too few enemy units where I decide to NOT cast fungal, and simply run away? #3 - Timing Do I rush to infestors or add them in during late game? Do I slowly add them to my army, or make many at once? #4 - Use as Harassment If I have 4 infestors, do I keep them with my main army, or send 1 or 2 to harass expansions? If I harass should I favor Fungal Growth, Infested Terran or both? Should I use Infested Terran to snipe tech, depots, or go for harvesters? Should I try to burrow my infestors into position, or lob infested terran over a cliff (into the main for instance, on Slag Pits, with the aid of an Overlord for vision). Are ventral sacs going to be much help here? #5 - Spell Selection Should all energy be saved just for fungal, or can we identify situations where it is better to use Infested Terran or Neural Parasite? In late, late game, and I have 8 infestor with full energy, should I consider using them to make 64 infested terran? Is there something to be worked out here in regards to using infested terran as a form of late game supply efficiency? (infestor at full energy, 1 infested terran "costs" 1/4 of a supply). #6 - Infestor Preservation How reckless do we want to be with infestors? Are they worth sac'ing for a decent fungal? Can we find techniques to keep them alive? In what situations do we decide that they are too expensive too risk on certain types of missions? Should infestors in the main army be kept burrowed most of the time, or unburrowed so they can move faster? These are the kinds of posts that I really think the zerg community at a whole needs to think about. Zerg, in general, seem to have really gotten so frustrated with the matchup that we want to just slam what is familiar and comfortable into the toss game after game and hope it turns out well. Blizzard drastically changed one of our most dynamic units and it has yet to seen the light of day in a competition yet, mainly because infestors are an unfamiliar unit to the matchup. However, over the next few months (probably) the top tier players are going to be trying to figure out the answers to those questions and we'll start seeing just how pivotal or not the unit will be. | ||
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VictorX
United States773 Posts
On April 08 2011 03:35 Johnny_Vegas wrote: I'd love to see that replay, I've had a hard time finding good ZvP replays making good use of infestors, where the zerg isn't a level or two above the Protoss skill wise. Even I, merely a high diamond, have had nice games with infestors, only to watch the replay and relealize the Protoss never used Chronoboost, or only made 4 gateway on 2 base. I think the day of the infestor is on its way but their proper usage has yet to be mastered. Here are a few things I think players haven't really figured out, that will change the metagame once they are discovered: #1 - Unit composition What units synergize with infestors best? How many infestors should I make for a given unit composition? At what point do I abandon/pursue infestors, based on the enemy's composition? Are they best used alone (commando style), in small groups (multi-prong attacks), or as part of the main army? #2 - Energy Management I've seen quite a few games where the Zerg burns 100% of infestor energy during a single battle, but then loses to a follow up attack. How should energy be managed when using infestors? Should some infestors be left back at base to charge up energy, and/or ensure a charged infestor is available for the 2nd battle? At what point are there too few enemy units where I decide to NOT cast fungal, and simply run away? #3 - Timing Do I rush to infestors or add them in during late game? Do I slowly add them to my army, or make many at once? #4 - Use as Harassment If I have 4 infestors, do I keep them with my main army, or send 1 or 2 to harass expansions? If I harass should I favor Fungal Growth, Infested Terran or both? Should I use Infested Terran to snipe tech, depots, or go for harvesters? Should I try to burrow my infestors into position, or lob infested terran over a cliff (into the main for instance, on Slag Pits, with the aid of an Overlord for vision). Are ventral sacs going to be much help here? #5 - Spell Selection Should all energy be saved just for fungal, or can we identify situations where it is better to use Infested Terran or Neural Parasite? In late, late game, and I have 8 infestor with full energy, should I consider using them to make 64 infested terran? Is there something to be worked out here in regards to using infested terran as a form of late game supply efficiency? (infestor at full energy, 1 infested terran "costs" 1/4 of a supply). #6 - Infestor Preservation How reckless do we want to be with infestors? Are they worth sac'ing for a decent fungal? Can we find techniques to keep them alive? In what situations do we decide that they are too expensive too risk on certain types of missions? Should infestors in the main army be kept burrowed most of the time, or unburrowed so they can move faster? Synergy wise, I have actually had the most success with speedling/banelings The reasoning is that to get good maximum usage of fungal AND neural parasite, the protoss must be pinned back. Roaches, being a ranged unit, once engaging the Protoss ball, make the protoss ball naturally spread into a line. All good protoss (as well as good zergs) will begin fanning out to out-flank using their ranged units. With both players trying to get "the better concave" fungal growth becomes greatly mitigated, at most catching 5-6 stalkers mid-late in the battle. The line formation is terrible for infestors, because with stalkers at the flank and colossus at the center of the "line of fire", it becomes very hard to get off a good fungal OR a good parasite. Not to mention your infestors will be mixed in with the roaches and hydras, which the colossus are naturally shooting, it also becomes hard to move the infestors in without them getting leisurely focus fired. With speedlings, the protoss is instantly balled by the surround, sometimes even forcing themselves into a tighter ball using forcefields. The colossus will do great damage on the speedlings. However, because infestors are allowed to cast in those 2-5 seconds the speedlings are still active, they are able to secure the entire Protoss army with two-three fungals, and chain-neural colossus to devastating effect. Also, banerain + fungal provides the most potent Zerg ZvP splash damage, and can annihilate an army in seconds, only to be succeeded by hivetech Baneling/ultralisk/infestor/speedling, which is a nightmare for any Protoss to deal with without a sharp transition into mass voidray As for harassment I feel baneling drops are more cost efficient and less risky than infestor harass. However on high ground ledges (3rd blue mineral base in Xel'naga, 3rd base in Typhon Peaks), just one or two infestors on the high ground can do much more than their cost. Infestor preservation is a must, because in late game PvZ, well-micro'd blink stalker balls with support are the enemy of both broodlords and ultralisks, to be able to fungal and prevent blink spread vs ultralisks and blink forward (to snipe BL) is absolutely invaluable | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On April 08 2011 04:05 VictorX wrote: Synergy wise, I have actually had the most success with speedling/banelings The reasoning is that to get good maximum usage of fungal AND neural parasite, the protoss must be pinned back. Roaches, being a ranged unit, once engaging the Protoss ball, make the protoss ball naturally spread into a line. All good protoss (as well as good zergs) will begin fanning out to out-flank using their ranged units. With both players trying to get "the better concave" fungal growth becomes greatly mitigated, at most catching 5-6 stalkers mid-late in the battle. The line formation is terrible for infestors, because with stalkers at the flank and colossus at the center of the "line of fire", it becomes very hard to get off a good fungal OR a good parasite. Not to mention your infestors will be mixed in with the roaches and hydras, which the colossus are naturally shooting, it also becomes hard to move the infestors in without them getting leisurely focus fired. With speedlings, the protoss is instantly balled by the surround, sometimes even forcing themselves into a tighter ball using forcefields. The colossus will do great damage on the speedlings. However, because infestors are allowed to cast in those 2-5 seconds the speedlings are still active, they are able to secure the entire Protoss army with two-three fungals, and chain-neural colossus to devastating effect. Also, banerain + fungal provides the most potent Zerg ZvP splash damage, and can annihilate an army in seconds, only to be succeeded by hivetech Baneling/ultralisk/infestor/speedling, which is a nightmare for any Protoss to deal with without a sharp transition into mass voidray As for harassment I feel baneling drops are more cost efficient and less risky than infestor harass. However on high ground ledges (3rd blue mineral base in Xel'naga, 3rd base in Typhon Peaks), just one or two infestors on the high ground can do much more than their cost. Infestor preservation is a must, because in late game PvZ, well-micro'd blink stalker balls with support are the enemy of both broodlords and ultralisks, to be able to fungal and prevent blink spread vs ultralisks and blink forward (to snipe BL) is absolutely invaluable I agree once you get drops or ultras that ling/bane/infestor has amazing synergy. However until you get one of those two techs, FF hardcounters ling/bane. But I have seen some high-level players adopt bane drop + infestor play, namely Naugrim & HayprO. However at the tournament level infestor play generally doesn't do well. | ||
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MagicGunner
United States78 Posts
Basically, I've noticed that I've never used infested terrans outside of minor mineral line harass and building sniping. Why is this? Well, quite frankly, when you've got above 4 infestors with over half full energy, you invest so much time spamming Shift-Clickthat your focus on other aspects of the game is dulled. Well, I thought "Huh, isn't there a faster way to make infested terrans? If only there was a batch spawn ability..." Well then I got to thinking "Is there a way you can enable mouse clicks on your keyboard?" I do some googling and sure enough, there is. By going into Accessibility and enabling Mouse Keys, your + sign on your number pad acts as a double click... So I change my Infested Terran hotkey from T to Delete (Something close enough to the Number pad + so I don't have to use both hands) and by spamming Shift-(Delete)-+ While clicking on my mouse, I was astonished at how quickly you could queue infested terrans. It might just be a neat gimmick but I definitely think that, at the very least, mass infested terrans can become more viable with this technique. What are your thoughts guys? EDIT: Quick replay in a unit test map. At 1:10 is when I start testing all the stuff, I was messing with my hotkeys for the first minute. The funny thing is, my apm peaks at 720 when using this method, literally double what my APM was using the normal method (I might be a little slower at clicking but I think you'll get the idea). http://rapidshare.com/files/456374696/InfestedTerranSpam.SC2Replay | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On April 04 2011 12:28 DeadPixels wrote: Honest question, if you simultaneously cast several fungal growths on the same group of units does the damage stack or are they just wasted fungals? Um.. if fungal growth damage stacked ZvX would be a joke. I believe only AOE damage that stacks in SC2 is thermal lance. (I could be wrong) | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
thermal lance, ultra damage, and tank splash, I believe all stack (none else do though) (thats because these are all over instantly rather then being a DOT like storm or fungal). As to infesters, I have used infesters quite a bit, they are very usefull. However I think people underestimate some things about infestres. First burrow is CRITICAL with infesters. Being able to move and not be seen is very powerful in any matchup. Also casting FG/IT and then burrowing all your infesters so they cant be targeted is very good. Secondly, people underestimate how powerful infested terrans are at harrass. If you have 2 infesters drop all thier energy (assuming about 125 energy each which seems about avr) in infested terrans at a base, it will kill all the workers or the hatchery/nexus/command center no problem (command center might be able to pick up and move away, but it depends on how you spread your IT). Although it wont kill a PF (you can drop just a few IT behind the mineral lines so the scvs cant keep mining) | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
perhaps if you were to find a way to rush for infestors pretty fast, not die, and have them be useful, then yeah, saving them is a good idea. Like in ZvZ if it gets into roach vs roach, and you get some early infestors, then youd really want to save them for later. But once you get maxed, well its prebably best to have the infestors a-move into the deathball and let them die. with high templars, once they are oom, well you can make archons, so its best to keep them alive. But infestors, once they are oom, they are useless. Then, you need to wait over 2 minutes to get back to 75 energy, while its only 50 seconds to remake some infestors. So if you get into a lategame ZvP, the big battle of max vs max is likely to decide the game. if you sac your infestors, well they can soak up a small amount of damage, and I guess everything helps, and then you can remax. If you keep them alive, I dont see the advantage really, since now you have a lot of supply used up in infestors with no energy, that wont help you kill him, kill his expos, survive the rest of his army, or whatever. If you have a lot of money, then clearly, having 20 food of actual units building right after the fight, is better than having 20 food of infestors just sitting around even in a situation where you have little cash, having 10 infestors just sitting around for 2 minutes doesnt really seem worth it, might as well have had them soak up 900 more damage from the ennemy deathball, and have some other units still alive for those 2 minutes. | ||
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VeryAverage
United States424 Posts
I was the protoss and I did the normal good ol' 3 gateway sentry expansion against a zerg. As soon as I saw IdrA pull his nifty burrowed roach play, I decided I was never going to 6 gate again. So I've been kind of doing a push after I get 5 gateways and an immortal or two. This guy I was facing however, didn't get roaches. I scouted poorly and didn't realize he was going ling/baneling/infestor. Because I clumped up my units so heavily, one or two fungals effectively nullified my ability to abuse range + forcefields and he just kept pumping lings to eventually whittle down my forces to nothing. I couldn't take a 3rd base because we were close positions and the lings gave him so much map control versus roaches. He also had a shocking amount of queens which didn't allow me to tech switch into heavy void ray play. I guess in hindsight I could have just gotten like 15 phoenixes and lifted all of his queens but that's why I'm only in diamond  PvZ Infestor/Ling/Baneling/Queen | ||
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darthfoley
United States8003 Posts
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SpaceGhost
United States61 Posts
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