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[Q] Fungal Growth helping ZvP vs. Deathball? - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Nakas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States148 Posts
April 03 2011 22:31 GMT
#41
On April 04 2011 05:49 DeltruS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2011 05:47 Nakas wrote:
Just finished watching the second set of Idra vs Huk, and again no infestor play. Idra just used the standard roach/hydra/corruptor pushes that were used in patch 1.2.


He had 12 infestors VS HuK on the game that HuK dced. I really wanted to see how well IdrA would use them.


I felt the same way. It was going to be a more wide open engagement there on Shakuras than it was on his previous Crossfire game, so I imagine the infestors would have been more effective.
Scaryman
Profile Joined June 2010
United States70 Posts
April 03 2011 22:32 GMT
#42
On April 04 2011 06:47 morimacil wrote:
Show nested quote +
You can easily have 7 infestors when toss has 3-4 colossi.

not really, no.
7 infestors is a ton of gas. 1300 gas to be exact.
if you are getting neural parasite, then thats another 150 gas, and you cant have it by the time a toss has 3 colossi.
Well actually, you can, but you cant have that, plus an actual army, and infestors are just support units.
Infestors are super gas heavy support units with super gas heavy upgrades, that are meant to support a super gas heavy army with super gas heavy upgrades. thats the problem, the gas.

Thats also the reason why stuff like marine-marauder-viking works much better against toss deathballs than roach hydra corruptor.
without going into the whole range, and relative power of the units, mm viking is just a much more streamlined composition based on your income. a mineral unit, 2 units that are relatively cheap on gas, and 250 gas spent on upgrades.
roach hydra corruptor, you are looking at a relatively gas cheap unit, 2 gas expensive units, and at least 350 gas on upgrades.
So adding in more support units like infestors that are super gas heavy, with more gas heavy upgrades needed, is just not really possible most of the time. You can only get so much gas, even if you are 1 base up over your opponent.


pro tip you dont need hydras
MrBadMan
Profile Joined February 2011
93 Posts
April 03 2011 22:47 GMT
#43
Infestors still get crushed by thermal lance colossi. And any deathball that doesnt use colossi, you are better off going pure hydra/roach.

The one thing infestors are godly against are death balls with alot of zealots/sentries.
ODKStevez
Profile Joined February 2011
Ireland1225 Posts
April 03 2011 22:53 GMT
#44
From my own experience, +30% to armoured isn't that big of a deal since FG diddn't do much to armoured in the first place. However, I personally used FG for slowing down an army to allow me to recreate my army, however, now, it will be used more for dps it seems. It will be interesting to see how it adapts over the next few weeks.
Luppa <3
Tef
Profile Joined April 2008
Sweden443 Posts
April 03 2011 23:06 GMT
#45
I think the biggest issue is that infestors doesn't have good synergy with roaches and lings, which is what you can afford if you go for infestors. You can't afford blings or hydras together with infestors on 3 bases. The tech is also very slow and even if you get infestors they are useless before they have enough energy for a fungal so they are basically the anti-timing against warp gate builds.
Dont fuck up, dont fuck yourself
enrOo
Profile Joined July 2010
Finland23 Posts
April 03 2011 23:09 GMT
#46
zvp infestors own.... after u fungal theres no escaping the roaches
i am become death, the destroyer of worlds. For Our Utopia
RaiZ
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
2813 Posts
April 03 2011 23:29 GMT
#47
On April 04 2011 06:30 tdt wrote:
It was a buff and a nerf. More damage to protoss units because most are armored but less time locking them down so they can get back to the business of FF and blinking again. I don't think you'll see much change at pro levels.


What about saving 2 infestors' energy so that it can get to 3 FG and kill the sentries before engaging our army ?
You can also spend ur surplus of minerals to get glings and suicide ur glings to save the life of the infestors and FG 3 times before dying against colossus ?
I'm seriously thinking about using it more and more...
Having way less FFs could be really interesting (it takes 3 FGs for sentries to be killed but you can already spend ur 3rd FG straight after the 2nd one since they have like 10 hp left after 2 FGs).
Downside is obviously spreading ur sentries which pretty much renders infestors useless. Maybe you could lure them with glings so that the toss army get clumped again ?

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Oscar Wilde
morimacil
Profile Joined March 2010
France921 Posts
April 04 2011 00:33 GMT
#48
what the hell are glings?
zerglings are zerglings.
lings are zerglings
banelings are banelings.
blings are banelings.
speedlings are zerglings with the metabolic boost upgrade.
cracklings are speedlings with the adrenal gland upgrade.
but glings?
what the hell are glings supposed to be?

And no matter what you meant by glings, its still not a great idea. Because all in all, you are investing a lot of gas in infestors (yes, even 2 infestors is a lot of gas), and a lot of time too.
And then you are relying on greatly outmicroing your opponent to make them useful, if your opponent microes his colossi and one-shots them, blinks some stalkers and kills them, or spreads out his sentries a bit, and so on, then your big gas investment is once again useless.

its kind of like sending out 1 zealot to fight 2 marines. sure enough, if your opponent has shit micro, it could be a good idea, but making an investment that relies on your opponent having terrible micro just so that investment pays off for itself is a bad idea.
Even if you do manage to kill the sentries, they are just there to amplify the toss army's potential, they arent the real army.
Its great if you can kill the sentries, and your opponent can no longer cut off a third of your army and kill it. But if you have to sacrifice a third of your army to do that, then in the end, while you dont get crushed by the forcefields, you still get crushed in exactly the same way as if there had been forcefields.

running infestors forward to fungal the sentries, relies on your opponent mismicroing. Not only that, but it relies on your opponent mismicroing, 3 times in a row.
And even once that happend, its still not like you are in a game winning advantage situation. its unlikely that you would be able to get 100% of his sentries, he can warp in some more, and even assuming the fact that you did get all his sentries, and he cant warp in any more, since you had to use up so much gas to do that, you still are not ahead, because the rest of your army is that much weaker now.
just 3 infestors, with the upgrade, to fungal 3 times, is 450 gas for the infestors, 150 for the upgrade, 100 for the pit, thats 700 gas, thats 28 roaches that you now cant afford. or 7 corruptors less.
good luck fighting a toss deathball, with 7 less corruptors, you will get raped by colossi and void rays.
Chinesewonder
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada354 Posts
April 04 2011 00:41 GMT
#49
I dont know about you guys, but infestors in ZvP just seems way too hard to pull off. First of all the damage pay off isnt that great. If you fungal once or even twice all his stalkers, sure it takes off 47 damage, but it just takes it off the shields. Fungal is also quite a small area of damage, so your going to have to lay down quite a few fungals to really have an effect. Not to mention you have to micro the slow infestors which could get picked off by blinked stalkers.

I haven't changed my ZvP at all since the patch. Same thing goes, roach heavy, with hydras, and 30-40 banelings for drops. Then 8-10 corruptor. And let me tell you, it works amazing even if my ground gets ff'ed to crap, by the end the deathball doesnt have any stalkers, sentries, zealots and the colossi are sometimes heavily damaged. When I pull it off flawlessly I can be left with 50-75%, at the very worst I trade armies with corruptors left over which is a huge plus for me still.
Avril_Lavigne
Profile Joined April 2010
United States446 Posts
April 04 2011 00:48 GMT
#50
how greedy is it that you want to fungal all of their sentries? You need about 2-3 fungals to kill sentries and losing sentries is huge for a protoss army. it takes 3 fungals to kill vikings so broodlord infestor is pretty damn hard to stop, it takes 2 fungals to kill a group of marines with moderate medivac support, through testing it's ALMOST as if you seriously need 1 medivac for each individual marine to really out heal fungals not to mention that fungal catches medivacs too. I know this is a zvp thread so I'll get a little more on topic. Zergs who go straight for infestor after lair is a pretty solid strategy since protoss can't really move out anymore risking their sentries to get fungalled, they have to wait for colossus and the thermal lance giving zerg time to drone up so yeah infestor is pretty viable in all match ups
morimacil
Profile Joined March 2010
France921 Posts
April 04 2011 00:58 GMT
#51
Zergs who go straight for infestor after lair is a pretty solid strategy since protoss can't really move out anymore risking their sentries to get fungalled, they have to wait for colossus and the thermal lance giving zerg time to drone up so yeah infestor is pretty viable in all match ups


Its called timing windows.
protoss players who move out at completely random times and get crushed is nothing new.
Either they want to move out and hit early, like for example a 6gate, so its timed before zerg has mutas, infestors, or large numbers of upgraded roache hydra.
Or they want to wait for the lategame deathball.
Theres really no reason why a toss would want to let you get your lair tech up, and then move out to attack you.
and if you rush to get infestors super fast, then you cant really have enough gas to have for a example a bunch of +1 speed roaches with burrow. So if you rush for infestors super fast, a 6gate can still just move in, lose 100% of the sentries through terrible micro, having them all clumped up at the front in a nice circle, and then still roll all over you, because you dont have anything to deal with the stalkers.
ChoiBoi
Profile Joined January 2011
United States130 Posts
April 04 2011 01:01 GMT
#52
I do like infestors, but I believe they're being used the wrong way, especially against death balls. (I still believe they need a HP buff)

With infestors, I'm starting to see a very good way to utilize them: infested terrans. Especially against toss, because you always (you should be, anyways) upgrade missile and carapace for roaches, they help amazingly towards infested terrans.

The infested terrans do 8 base damage and 10 with +2 missile. They are basically free supply marines! If you shoot them (the larva) dead center into the protoss ball, the collosus linear splash is ruined if they target the marines.

Plus, forcefields can't do anything if the units are inside the deathball, now can they? And fungal will keep them in place for this to work.
Scaryman
Profile Joined June 2010
United States70 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-04 02:19:29
April 04 2011 02:03 GMT
#53
On April 04 2011 06:51 Mutarisk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2011 06:07 Scaryman wrote:
fungal is storm that cant be avoided for a higher mana cost. It completely destroys but you cant cast in once and then 1a suicide all your infestors. Keeping your infestors alive is important, and if you get to the point where you have 6+ infestors and broodlords you actually cant lose. The zerg "deathball" is the best in the game. fungallord is king and should be every zergs endgame goal in zvp

also fungal + neural is digusting if you have good positioning.(never underestimate neural on immortals, its nasty)

people complain that fights vs the p deathball don't last long enough for 3 fungals, well that also means they don't last long enough for neural to run out. You can easily have 7 infestors when toss has 3-4 colossi. you can neural all the colossi then start fungaling good chance 1 or 2 of your neuraling infestors get picked off so re-neural with a different one. You should still have energy for a 3+ fungals meaning protoss cant do anything about the neurals unless you position poorly.



Void Rays crap on the Zerg "Deathball"

Unless you have 12 infestors to chain the void rays to death (And if you did I'm sure the protoss would be smart enough to split the void rays)


Protoss has a unique ability to crap on every zerg unit except the corruptor which actually allows the zerg player to have a small part in dictating how the battle will occur.

Since the infestor was changed from a snare to a dps roll, it's kinda worse in providing actual support to units in ZvP.

Also, if you have 7 infestors by the time protoss has 3 colossus.

You won't have either an Army or Upgrades while the Protoss is way ahead.


voidrays are pretty good vs infestors with there low amount of hp and armoredness

and unless they have been going voidrays all game you corruptor count should easily be able to maintain air control and protoss can't suddenly build 20 voidrays at a time like you can with corruptors, since at this point you would have 4+ hatches. Protoss cant suddenly make 10 stargates and then voidrays. Once you get air control from the voidrays you have it forever.
Rodregeus
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia126 Posts
April 04 2011 03:09 GMT
#54
My friend has always used heavy amounts of infestors, and is an absolute boss with FG. I never understood why there was such a lack of people using it. I CAN NOT go bio against him, as he always has infestors, and is generally able to just keep my army in place until the slowly die every time. :/

He's better than me in general which helps, but I just think infestors have so much potential that people haven't figured out yet. I'm going to assume I'm right too, as I kept saying the same thing about FF, everyone said I was an idiot, and now look at MC!
Fear the reaper. // lol never mind.
DeadPixels
Profile Joined October 2010
United States78 Posts
April 04 2011 03:28 GMT
#55
Honest question, if you simultaneously cast several fungal growths on the same group of units does the damage stack or are they just wasted fungals?
K3Nyy
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1961 Posts
April 04 2011 03:33 GMT
#56
I rather see zergs mix blings into their late game army with fungal.
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
April 04 2011 03:41 GMT
#57
On April 03 2011 11:57 LaLuSh wrote:
I have always been of the opinion that fungal growth should (partially) ignore shields and do direct damage to armor (like a light version of plague from broodwar).

With fungal being a projectile as it was in the PTR build, I think fungal doing half of its damage to armor and half of its damage to shields would have been a good compromise.

Especially as protoss have got counters to infestors in colossi range and templar feedback.


Patch didn't do too much to change the infestor's situation in ZvP. I still think it's too much of an investment, too hard to micro; a strategy too prone to backfiring.

Whatever people say, you can't keep chaining fungals against a thermal lance army. Maybe in theory you can -- but doesn't work as well in practice. And it just gets harder and harder the longer the game progresses and the bigger the Protoss army gets.

2-3 infestors are always good. More than that commonly proves to be a waste.


thanks for the insight. i tried getting infestors but chaining a stalker collo ball is harder than i thought. oh and does it hurt a lot when you get blink sniped...
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
April 04 2011 03:43 GMT
#58
On April 04 2011 12:28 DeadPixels wrote:
Honest question, if you simultaneously cast several fungal growths on the same group of units does the damage stack or are they just wasted fungals?


doesnt stack. you gotta wait until the 4 seconds is up to get maximum chain damage. you cant just put 10 fungals on enemy army in 1 second. itll be a waste.
johanngrunt
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Hong Kong1555 Posts
April 04 2011 03:53 GMT
#59
Or could the dilemma be solved by making the infestor model smaller? More in line with the other spellcasters like HT and ghosts.

Would not change any numbers, and just makes infestors harder to target in the heat of battle.

They did roughly the same thing to the Thor back in beta and it upped the effectiveness of the thor noticeably.
ReaperX
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Hong Kong1758 Posts
April 04 2011 04:03 GMT
#60
I think quick infestors work great with the new gateway based builds made by the pros, but if you're facing opponents who have range or HT the fungal's become worth less.
Artosis : Clide. idrA : Shut up.
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