EPTOf course you don't need hydras. What is optimal and what is necessary are different. At a certain point, roaches lose a lot of effectiveness against gateway armies due to forcefield and blink. That is when hydras become the better choice.
[Q] Fungal Growth helping ZvP vs. Deathball? - Page 4
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Mithrandir
United States99 Posts
Of course you don't need hydras. What is optimal and what is necessary are different. At a certain point, roaches lose a lot of effectiveness against gateway armies due to forcefield and blink. That is when hydras become the better choice. | ||
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Zeroes
United States1102 Posts
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tarath
United States377 Posts
No one else I've played has used it like that. | ||
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Synk
United States297 Posts
I wonder if the idea of infesters was for us to be able to abuse their borrow movement more, but the issue is every Protoss always rolls with an obs in their army so borrow just isn't available. I have used them a good deal after the patch but every time I've made them I've just gotten steam rolled, it just takes so many FG's to actually make a difference and since your infesters die after 1 FG like 75% of the time ... it just isn't effective. | ||
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aNooburak
Australia190 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
To chain fungal, it often helps to group an infestor with 4-6 lings as buffer so he doesn't get killed as soon as he gets in range - yes, they get killed in a second but fungal growth is insta-cast and if you shift-click the infestor into safety the opponent will only have a second as timing window to kill it. It's possible but extremely micro intensive to also use infested terran eggs to distract, though i've never been able to pull that off without messing my micro up and throwing infested terrans into the ball instead of fungaling it, but i'm just Diamond league with 100APM and non-existant multi-tasking. Repeat fungals with ling sacrifices until the army is weakened enough to be killed by your other units. I don't understand why people complain about fungal mostly weakening the shields... yes, after 8 seconds the shields start regenerating, but it's still 36/47 damage per fungaled unit your other units don't have to do, unless you give him time to regenerate. If you manage to chain 2-3 fungals even in battle his army won't have a lot of shields left and some units like sentries are even dead. Yeah, EMP is a lot stronger against shields and sentries, but well, it doesn't root the opponents army and can't really be chained to hurt the protoss more (except for some units like the colossus that doesn't lose all the shields to one EMP). Think of fungal as a slightly weaker psi storm the opponent can not kite out of, it's awesome. And don't forget that infested terrans can shoot up and do quite well against void rays, so you can even use those to clean up if he focussed all your hydras down or even defend against voidray harass with 4-5 infestors (fungal - spam infested terrans - fungal again - void rays (mostly) dead). Oh, and don't get me started on Infestors vs phoenixes. Infestors hard-counter phoenixes. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 04 2011 12:28 DeadPixels wrote: Honest question, if you simultaneously cast several fungal growths on the same group of units does the damage stack or are they just wasted fungals? All the area effect spells don't stack otherwise it would be GG as soon as player got a few HTs or infestors. | ||
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Scaryman
United States70 Posts
On April 04 2011 14:46 Synk wrote: My problem with infester has always been how ridiculously easy they are to pick off. They are these giant glowing slugs that even leave a trail behind them, you just can't miss them. It's unreal how fast they get picked off in every single engagement. I also always keep all of my units in separate control groups so I pull them back immediately after casting but it just doesn't matter, most games by mid game I'm managing 4 different control groups of units. Infester just insta die in ZvP, stalkers can pick them off so damn fast that you can't even use them against blink stalkers because they will get picked off every time after casting 1 FG against anyone decent ( I'm in masters ). Even in ZvZ they get picked off by roaches pretty often, but I still think they are invaluable in ZvZ right now. I wonder if the idea of infesters was for us to be able to abuse their borrow movement more, but the issue is every Protoss always rolls with an obs in their army so borrow just isn't available. I have used them a good deal after the patch but every time I've made them I've just gotten steam rolled, it just takes so many FG's to actually make a difference and since your infesters die after 1 FG like 75% of the time ... it just isn't effective. to cast 1 fungal only 1 infestor needs to move ahead of your army. This is another huge problem alot of zergs have. Almost every zerg i play moves his group of 5-7 infestors forward to cast 1-2 fungals. Instead of moving 1-2 infestors. If people actually practiced infestor builds instead of trying it a few games and comparing it to builds they have done literally hundreds of times of course its gonna seem bad. Do you even consider how ridiculously overpowered something would have to be for you to be able to use it and win with no practice? Also, as long is your not charging into a tiny choke roaches are more cost effective then hydras vs everything but immortals. You just have to scoot them up to melee range. They crap all over everything produced from the gateway and they scale better with upgrades. Many of you are making a common rts mistake in saying if i get this hell get this. WELL DUH if you could just build something and win the game would not be balanced. Aggressive play with infestors rapes sentries. They cost 100 gas and they die faster then infestors if your killing sentries protoss has to chose were to cut gas and most likely it will be those sentries that get cut. if they go with less stalkers and more zealots to save gas to replace the sentries then you have won. Do you know how much damage a fungaled zealot does to roaches? So you force the protoss into stalker colossi. If you hit the fungals protoss cant do a thing about neural. Also many/most toss have 1 obs with their army and its normally right in the middle of it. Fungal will kill it without you even trying vs most players, you can see it if you hit it which means you can watch and die and burrow heal while the protoss bangs his head against the wall as all his units die to your roach colossus army. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
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magha
Netherlands427 Posts
On April 04 2011 00:08 Nakas wrote: Given Idra's comments on FG being OP, I was expecting him to showcase some sick infestor play in MLG. I havent seen all of Idras games from MLG. But that game of Huk vs Idra where Huk disced Idra had an army of alsmost exclusively roaches and infestors. He had around 8 or 9 infestors I believe and he was researching neural parasite. I can't imagine him using this kind of build/tactic without having practiced it and seen the potential. I guess the idea is to fungal everything in place and NP most/all the colossus. Even if the infestors get sniped right afterwards by blinking stalkers (fg only lasts 3 rl seconds) it would have denied a lot of damage from the colossus on the roaches which would have a better positioning by then aswell. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On April 03 2011 10:26 GOWPUD wrote: Here is my question, some pro's (idra) and other players have said that the 1.3 fungal boost helps the ZvP matchup because it prevents sentries from casting, stalkers from blinking, and collosus from positioning What Idra said was wrong— I don't know what gave him the impression that it stops spellcasting. Fungal growth only prevents burrow/unburrow, siege/unsiege, fighter/assault mode, and blink (and units from being LOADED but thats kinda related to movement). That said, I think a interesting idea could have been to keep fungal at 8 seconds, and make it disable all special abilities. It could even still be done at the current 4 second duration although I think it would be pretty pointless/useless considering how short it lasts? Considering how bad corruption is though (and contaminate), one of the various ideas I've thought of would make corruption disable special abilities (although it would need to last much less time to be balanced. On April 04 2011 14:27 Zeroes wrote: I really wish the range was longer on fg you get hit by everything before you can get close No I don't think that's really the issue. The issue is the low infestor health, which I think is stupid that blizzard didn't decide to buff. The other issue is the range of the colossus— it makes more sense to me to be range 8 than range 9. The LEAST blizzard should have done was to remove the armored attribute from the damn thing... freaking gets owned by immortal, marauder, stalker, siege tank, void ray, all these hugely common hugely popular units, who also happen to be excellent vs the main unit that infestors are good with (the roach). The fact that roach-infestor gets owned so much by just an anti-armored unit is pretty lame in my opinion. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On April 04 2011 09:33 morimacil wrote: what the hell are glings? zerglings are zerglings. lings are zerglings banelings are banelings. blings are banelings. speedlings are zerglings with the metabolic boost upgrade. cracklings are speedlings with the adrenal gland upgrade. but glings? what the hell are glings supposed to be? And no matter what you meant by glings, its still not a great idea. Because all in all, you are investing a lot of gas in infestors (yes, even 2 infestors is a lot of gas), and a lot of time too. And then you are relying on greatly outmicroing your opponent to make them useful, if your opponent microes his colossi and one-shots them, blinks some stalkers and kills them, or spreads out his sentries a bit, and so on, then your big gas investment is once again useless. its kind of like sending out 1 zealot to fight 2 marines. sure enough, if your opponent has shit micro, it could be a good idea, but making an investment that relies on your opponent having terrible micro just so that investment pays off for itself is a bad idea. Even if you do manage to kill the sentries, they are just there to amplify the toss army's potential, they arent the real army. Its great if you can kill the sentries, and your opponent can no longer cut off a third of your army and kill it. But if you have to sacrifice a third of your army to do that, then in the end, while you dont get crushed by the forcefields, you still get crushed in exactly the same way as if there had been forcefields. running infestors forward to fungal the sentries, relies on your opponent mismicroing. Not only that, but it relies on your opponent mismicroing, 3 times in a row. And even once that happend, its still not like you are in a game winning advantage situation. its unlikely that you would be able to get 100% of his sentries, he can warp in some more, and even assuming the fact that you did get all his sentries, and he cant warp in any more, since you had to use up so much gas to do that, you still are not ahead, because the rest of your army is that much weaker now. just 3 infestors, with the upgrade, to fungal 3 times, is 450 gas for the infestors, 150 for the upgrade, 100 for the pit, thats 700 gas, thats 28 roaches that you now cant afford. or 7 corruptors less. good luck fighting a toss deathball, with 7 less corruptors, you will get raped by colossi and void rays. Glings/Lings it's the same. About Infestors, i was talking more about using it relatively early, or at least before the toss get colossus' range. And it's not like you have to spend all ur gas to get all those upgrades. I'm talking about a timing windows that relies on 3 (actually 4) FGs with only 2 infestors and without spending the energy upgrade. That's 300 gas. You'd need speed roaches but not tunneling claws or burrow since the whole purpose of my build is to kill the sentries with 3 FGs. I'm aware, I won't be able to kill all of them but i'm pretty sure that'd help a lot especially in the beginning. 300 gas is 12 less roach gas cost-wise. But it's not like you could have spent the missed gas on glings instead, since you'd get plenty of minerals and larvaes assuming you don't forget a single larvae inject. Having less FFs on the beginning of the game is HUGE. And even if he get colossus (possibly not range yet) you can always send ur remaining energy of the 2nd infestor on 3 infested terrans to help getting less hit. The only downside i see there really is spreading sentries. | ||
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Wheats
United States68 Posts
On April 04 2011 21:01 RaiZ wrote: Glings/Lings it's the same. About Infestors, i was talking more about using it relatively early, or at least before the toss get colossus' range. And it's not like you have to spend all ur gas to get all those upgrades. I'm talking about a timing windows that relies on 3 (actually 4) FGs with only 2 infestors and without spending the energy upgrade. That's 300 gas. You'd need speed roaches but not tunneling claws or burrow since the whole purpose of my build is to kill the sentries with 3 FGs. I'm aware, I won't be able to kill all of them but i'm pretty sure that'd help a lot especially in the beginning. 300 gas is 12 less roach gas cost-wise. But it's not like you could have spent the missed gas on glings instead, since you'd get plenty of minerals and larvaes assuming you don't forget a single larvae inject. Having less FFs on the beginning of the game is HUGE. And even if he get colossus (possibly not range yet) you can always send ur remaining energy of the 2nd infestor on 3 infested terrans to help getting less hit. The only downside i see there really is spreading sentries. Ok, heres the thing. I just against AI went for just 2 infestor on a drone farmed 2 base (15 hatch, 14 pool, gas at 50% pool) while skipping ling speed and any roach tech. 2 infestors with 150 energy occured at exactly 11:00 in game, thats skipping all unneeded units such as spotter or aggression lings or even spines for defense. I think that idea just flat out dies to a 6 gate, sorry. EDIT: or even a 5 gate pressure. | ||
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Scaryman
United States70 Posts
On April 04 2011 21:40 Wheats wrote: Ok, heres the thing. I just against AI went for just 2 infestor on a drone farmed 2 base (15 hatch, 14 pool, gas at 50% pool) while skipping ling speed and any roach tech. 2 infestors with 150 energy occured at exactly 11:00 in game, thats skipping all unneeded units such as spotter or aggression lings or even spines for defense. I think that idea just flat out dies to a 6 gate, sorry. EDIT: or even a 5 gate pressure. you scout a 6 gate before you build infestation pit get roaches with burrow defend it laugh then get infestors. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
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theLiminator
Canada57 Posts
It would require good flanking, but It could be REALLY deadly. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
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grobo
Japan6199 Posts
Every unit in the game outranges them and they get oneshotted by everything. I'd honestly prefer them the way they were pre-patch but with their range increased. | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
On April 03 2011 10:35 OhMyGawd wrote: I think Zerg are going to have to use several more hotkeys and split up their army into 3 or more pieces. Then sandwiching from all sides and fungaling the whole army. 3 Hotkeys for a Zerg army is already minimum before the patch, just sayin. Its not that simple to control a zerg army  | ||
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Rareware
Canada340 Posts
On April 04 2011 18:58 Xapti wrote: What Idra said was wrong— I don't know what gave him the impression that it stops spellcasting. Fungal growth only prevents burrow/unburrow, siege/unsiege, fighter/assault mode, and blink (and units from being LOADED but thats kinda related to movement). That said, I think a interesting idea could have been to keep fungal at 8 seconds, and make it disable all special abilities. It could even still be done at the current 4 second duration although I think it would be pretty pointless/useless considering how short it lasts? Considering how bad corruption is though (and contaminate), one of the various ideas I've thought of would make corruption disable special abilities (although it would need to last much less time to be balanced. No I don't think that's really the issue. The issue is the low infestor health, which I think is stupid that blizzard didn't decide to buff. The other issue is the range of the colossus— it makes more sense to me to be range 8 than range 9. The LEAST blizzard should have done was to remove the armored attribute from the damn thing... freaking gets owned by immortal, marauder, stalker, siege tank, void ray, all these hugely common hugely popular units, who also happen to be excellent vs the main unit that infestors are good with (the roach). The fact that roach-infestor gets owned so much by just an anti-armored unit is pretty lame in my opinion. I always thought that what IdrA meant by it stopping spellcasting was that it locks down the spell caster and it can't really position it's spells while immobile, but ya it was really an overstatement on his part. Anyway I never felt that this change would instantly change how zerg play vs protoss but overtime it would play strong role in holding units down and adding much needed DPS to the zerg army. | ||
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