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sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-13 12:55:52
April 13 2011 12:55 GMT
#181
On April 13 2011 21:49 Cibron wrote:
I don't agree on theory crafting always being bad. Proposing untried methods of dealing with certain situations is different from suggesting stupid game changing stuff like "zerglings should fly".


The point is: why on earth would you "suggest" something and not try it out at least a couple of times? Doesn't it strike you even a bit insulting to, say, make a thread that pretty much sounds like "hey I thought of this cool strategy that beats void/colossus, but I'm too lazy to try it out, so I just opened this thread, so you could test it and do the work for me"

Also if you suggest something that you've never tried (which, after all, is the definition of theory-craft), then the probability of you being wrong is also much higher.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
April 13 2011 19:32 GMT
#182
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.


1) No you can't. There are many little nuances to every game and describing it as "[H] ZvT Marine/Tank push" isn't enough to give posters an idea of what went wrong. Even if the OP does a great job of analyzing their game and posting a list of things they think went wrong, chances are they missed something, and you won't know it unless you watch the replay. Posting anything without watching the replay is probably theorycrafting and not helpful in the slightest to the OP. If you don't want to watch the replay, that's fine, just don't give him advice on the game then.

2) You seem to write just fine. Nobody is asking anybody to write like "shakespeare or an English PhD." Of course a big portion of the player base does not speak English as their first language, but it just so happens to be the language that TL uses to discuss and communicate. If you are going to post, people need to be able to understand you and not get brain cancer in the process. Also, as somebody who spent a lot of time dealing with "14 year old girls" right when instant messaging and text messages started to become popular in the US (I'm 23), I can tell you that it's not sexist at all. 14 year old girls really do talk like that, and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. It's completely unintelligible.

Starcraft 2 General is an open forum where the community can discuss Starcraft (although you still can't be an idiot). The strategy forum is a moderated forum where people who are completely stumped can try to ask for help, people who have thought long and hard about a topic can put it up for discussion, and people much, much better than us at this game can post informative guides that help your average TL'er get better at the game.
tossuaway
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States107 Posts
April 13 2011 20:16 GMT
#183
I've read your frustration before and feel bad. I feel one reason there are so many people over posting and posting for no/bad reasons if the fact that it shows your number of posts. Anytime people can be measured by a number as opposed to their comments content they will spam comments till they have a big number. If you get rid of the number of posts, or at least hide it, I feel this will reduce the number of pointless posts.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-13 22:09:03
April 13 2011 22:03 GMT
#184
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.

From TL.net 10 Commandments which I'm sure you've read and keep close to your heart.
1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE

You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply IP ban you. If we're really pissed off, then we IP ban you AND nuke every single post you've uploaded to the site - ever. It will be as if you had never existed here. This is our house. You've been warned.

I see no problem with it. It's only proper that people who reply and post in threads give as much or more thought in their responses as the OP put into theirs. This isn't 4chan or battle.net. This is TL. Standards are higher here

Also, people who post in choppy English have never been looked down upon. In fact, the mods have even defended people who make an attempt to type in proper English from the internet trolls that complain about their ESL skills. The problem is when people typ liek d1s in 4tt3rly unr3adabl3 txt sp4k th4t hurts your eyes or has the grammar skills of an utter idiot even though it's clear they can do better. It's quite obvious when someone's poor English is a result of them not having English as their first language and when they're just being a lazy dick. The former is understandable and is okay; the latter is not.
Strategos
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada132 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-13 23:43:12
April 13 2011 23:39 GMT
#185
On April 14 2011 04:32 ZasZ. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.


1) No you can't. There are many little nuances to every game and describing it as "[H] ZvT Marine/Tank push" isn't enough to give posters an idea of what went wrong. Even if the OP does a great job of analyzing their game and posting a list of things they think went wrong, chances are they missed something, and you won't know it unless you watch the replay. Posting anything without watching the replay is probably theorycrafting and not helpful in the slightest to the OP. If you don't want to watch the replay, that's fine, just don't give him advice on the game then.

2) You seem to write just fine. Nobody is asking anybody to write like "shakespeare or an English PhD." Of course a big portion of the player base does not speak English as their first language, but it just so happens to be the language that TL uses to discuss and communicate. If you are going to post, people need to be able to understand you and not get brain cancer in the process. Also, as somebody who spent a lot of time dealing with "14 year old girls" right when instant messaging and text messages started to become popular in the US (I'm 23), I can tell you that it's not sexist at all. 14 year old girls really do talk like that, and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. It's completely unintelligible.

Starcraft 2 General is an open forum where the community can discuss Starcraft (although you still can't be an idiot). The strategy forum is a moderated forum where people who are completely stumped can try to ask for help, people who have thought long and hard about a topic can put it up for discussion, and people much, much better than us at this game can post informative guides that help your average TL'er get better at the game.


I don't know what i find more ridiculous and quite frankly, hilarious, the fact that you think you're an expert on the social phenomenon of texting in prepubescent girls, or the fact that you think (hypothetical speaking) a high level diamond/masters would be unable to help say a silver player with their game given the information that the OP of any given post has stated. but that is not the point of this post, i am not here to argue over trivialities or whether the small sample of 14 year old girls you have dealt with in your limited time is enough evidence for you to draw the sweeping conclusions that you so strongly do, but again that isn't the point of this post.

all im saying is as a member of the community I do enjoy browsing the stratergy forums, and when I do see opportunities where i can contribute to another's progression, by offering constructive and meaningful advice, i do my best to do so .

However if you were to say that from this day forward, TLers cannot comment on any strategy post without watching the replay so be it. I lose nothing, but make no mistake, a policy like this will absolutely decimate a good number of valuable contributions as I am sure this will throw off many other people who have alot experience with starcraft from making contributions.

Now i understand the concern and well the intent of this post, the stratergy forum has of late been on a downward decline, however whether or not these particular changes will solve the problem, I am unsure, and am highly skeptical.

I have given my reasons why i don't think this is a good idea, but as another poster mentioned earlier, this is "NOT YOUR HOUSE", "thats why you opinions don't matter! Because the rules says so!!!!"

which then i guess raises the question who's house is it? I cannot say i have an answer. Is it Nazgul's house? or is it Zatics? While there no doubt certain individuals have contributed more to the community than others, but i must ask would TL be what is is today without the support of your regular TLer? Would this house be anything without the community that supports it? would their really be a house without the community, a community that contributes daily with no agenda, a community built upon practices of altruism like offering advice and suggestions in places like the strategy forums.
"Good news MLG fans, WE HAVE CHAIRS THIS YEAR!"
dmillz
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada270 Posts
April 13 2011 23:48 GMT
#186
Strategos if your really that inflamed, go start a revolution somewhere. The rules are there for a reason and yes, there might be a few less useful posts on some topics because you must watch the replay first, but there will be a LOT less dumbass responses that make everyone who reads them stupider.
Azrael22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States18 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-13 23:55:46
April 13 2011 23:55 GMT
#187
Strategos, the problem with your thinking the rules being enforced will inhibit people from posting in the strategy forum is that most of the "altruism like offering advice and suggestions" is just flat out BAD advice. Enforcing of these rules, while it may reduce the quantity of strategy posts, will (hopefully) greatly add to the quality of each post.
Rotodyne
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States2263 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 00:07:06
April 14 2011 00:05 GMT
#188
Strategos, there are pages upon pages of useless strategy information in each thread. Would you rather it be a very high quality discussion (due to the new TL rules), or would you rather have to sift through hundreds of useless posts by people that are trying to help with the kindness of their hearts but actually have no idea what they are talking about.
I can only play starcraft when I am shit canned. IPXZERG is a god.
Strategos
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada132 Posts
April 14 2011 00:16 GMT
#189
On April 14 2011 08:48 dmillz wrote:
Strategos if your really that inflamed, go start a revolution somewhere. The rules are there for a reason and yes, there might be a few less useful posts on some topics because you must watch the replay first, but there will be a LOT less dumbass responses that make everyone who reads them stupider.



This is not about being inflamed, this is about contributing to a potential solution to our problem.

On April 14 2011 08:55 Azrael22 wrote:
Strategos, the problem with your thinking the rules being enforced will inhibit people from posting in the strategy forum is that most of the "altruism like offering advice and suggestions" is just flat out BAD advice. Enforcing of these rules, while it may reduce the quantity of strategy posts, will (hopefully) greatly add to the quality of each post.


I totally agree with you there is bad advice on the stratergy forums. I however dont think this is the way to deal with it. You wouldn't burn your entire crop field to get rid of some diseased plants would you? Why not? because you would be destroy all the good plants that are there, and that is what i'm afraid of happening in this process.
"Good news MLG fans, WE HAVE CHAIRS THIS YEAR!"
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
April 14 2011 00:18 GMT
#190
On April 14 2011 08:39 Strategos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2011 04:32 ZasZ. wrote:
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.


1) No you can't. There are many little nuances to every game and describing it as "[H] ZvT Marine/Tank push" isn't enough to give posters an idea of what went wrong. Even if the OP does a great job of analyzing their game and posting a list of things they think went wrong, chances are they missed something, and you won't know it unless you watch the replay. Posting anything without watching the replay is probably theorycrafting and not helpful in the slightest to the OP. If you don't want to watch the replay, that's fine, just don't give him advice on the game then.

2) You seem to write just fine. Nobody is asking anybody to write like "shakespeare or an English PhD." Of course a big portion of the player base does not speak English as their first language, but it just so happens to be the language that TL uses to discuss and communicate. If you are going to post, people need to be able to understand you and not get brain cancer in the process. Also, as somebody who spent a lot of time dealing with "14 year old girls" right when instant messaging and text messages started to become popular in the US (I'm 23), I can tell you that it's not sexist at all. 14 year old girls really do talk like that, and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. It's completely unintelligible.

Starcraft 2 General is an open forum where the community can discuss Starcraft (although you still can't be an idiot). The strategy forum is a moderated forum where people who are completely stumped can try to ask for help, people who have thought long and hard about a topic can put it up for discussion, and people much, much better than us at this game can post informative guides that help your average TL'er get better at the game.


I don't know what i find more ridiculous and quite frankly, hilarious, the fact that you think you're an expert on the social phenomenon of texting in prepubescent girls, or the fact that you think (hypothetical speaking) a high level diamond/masters would be unable to help say a silver player with their game given the information that the OP of any given post has stated. but that is not the point of this post, i am not here to argue over trivialities or whether the small sample of 14 year old girls you have dealt with in your limited time is enough evidence for you to draw the sweeping conclusions that you so strongly do, but again that isn't the point of this post.

all im saying is as a member of the community I do enjoy browsing the stratergy forums, and when I do see opportunities where i can contribute to another's progression, by offering constructive and meaningful advice, i do my best to do so .

However if you were to say that from this day forward, TLers cannot comment on any strategy post without watching the replay so be it. I lose nothing, but make no mistake, a policy like this will absolutely decimate a good number of valuable contributions as I am sure this will throw off many other people who have alot experience with starcraft from making contributions.

Now i understand the concern and well the intent of this post, the stratergy forum has of late been on a downward decline, however whether or not these particular changes will solve the problem, I am unsure, and am highly skeptical.

I have given my reasons why i don't think this is a good idea, but as another poster mentioned earlier, this is "NOT YOUR HOUSE", "thats why you opinions don't matter! Because the rules says so!!!!"

which then i guess raises the question who's house is it? I cannot say i have an answer. Is it Nazgul's house? or is it Zatics? While there no doubt certain individuals have contributed more to the community than others, but i must ask would TL be what is is today without the support of your regular TLer? Would this house be anything without the community that supports it? would their really be a house without the community, a community that contributes daily with no agenda, a community built upon practices of altruism like offering advice and suggestions in places like the strategy forums.


Not sure why you're so upset to be honest. I'm not claiming to be any expert on age/social demographics, just stating that being politically correct is overrated and it's impossible to understand teenagers these days when they text/write something on the internet. Also you fail to address what zatic said in response to your post, which was something along the lines of: doesn't it seem a little rude to respond to somebody who takes a good amount of time to upload replays and analyze their play with "sorry I didn't watch the replay, but you should do XXX anyways" It doesn't matter how in-depth you think you're being, chances are half of the stuff you talk about doesn't apply. Watch the damn replay.

The new enforcement may indeed eliminate some helpful posters who don't really want to put any time into examining replays, but it eliminates a LOT of the random garbage that people post for the sake of posting. If you really disagree with it so much, I don't know what to tell you except look elsewhere for your Starcraft 2 knowledge. It's obvious TL wants a different environment than you do.

You'll find that people who ask for help in a coherent, well thought-out, self-critical way get similar responses from people who will take the time to watch their replays and tell them what went wrong. The altruism is still there we're just going for better post content.
Strategos
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada132 Posts
April 14 2011 00:35 GMT
#191
On April 14 2011 09:18 ZasZ. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2011 08:39 Strategos wrote:
On April 14 2011 04:32 ZasZ. wrote:
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.


1) No you can't. There are many little nuances to every game and describing it as "[H] ZvT Marine/Tank push" isn't enough to give posters an idea of what went wrong. Even if the OP does a great job of analyzing their game and posting a list of things they think went wrong, chances are they missed something, and you won't know it unless you watch the replay. Posting anything without watching the replay is probably theorycrafting and not helpful in the slightest to the OP. If you don't want to watch the replay, that's fine, just don't give him advice on the game then.

2) You seem to write just fine. Nobody is asking anybody to write like "shakespeare or an English PhD." Of course a big portion of the player base does not speak English as their first language, but it just so happens to be the language that TL uses to discuss and communicate. If you are going to post, people need to be able to understand you and not get brain cancer in the process. Also, as somebody who spent a lot of time dealing with "14 year old girls" right when instant messaging and text messages started to become popular in the US (I'm 23), I can tell you that it's not sexist at all. 14 year old girls really do talk like that, and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. It's completely unintelligible.

Starcraft 2 General is an open forum where the community can discuss Starcraft (although you still can't be an idiot). The strategy forum is a moderated forum where people who are completely stumped can try to ask for help, people who have thought long and hard about a topic can put it up for discussion, and people much, much better than us at this game can post informative guides that help your average TL'er get better at the game.


I don't know what i find more ridiculous and quite frankly, hilarious, the fact that you think you're an expert on the social phenomenon of texting in prepubescent girls, or the fact that you think (hypothetical speaking) a high level diamond/masters would be unable to help say a silver player with their game given the information that the OP of any given post has stated. but that is not the point of this post, i am not here to argue over trivialities or whether the small sample of 14 year old girls you have dealt with in your limited time is enough evidence for you to draw the sweeping conclusions that you so strongly do, but again that isn't the point of this post.

all im saying is as a member of the community I do enjoy browsing the stratergy forums, and when I do see opportunities where i can contribute to another's progression, by offering constructive and meaningful advice, i do my best to do so .

However if you were to say that from this day forward, TLers cannot comment on any strategy post without watching the replay so be it. I lose nothing, but make no mistake, a policy like this will absolutely decimate a good number of valuable contributions as I am sure this will throw off many other people who have alot experience with starcraft from making contributions.

Now i understand the concern and well the intent of this post, the stratergy forum has of late been on a downward decline, however whether or not these particular changes will solve the problem, I am unsure, and am highly skeptical.

I have given my reasons why i don't think this is a good idea, but as another poster mentioned earlier, this is "NOT YOUR HOUSE", "thats why you opinions don't matter! Because the rules says so!!!!"

which then i guess raises the question who's house is it? I cannot say i have an answer. Is it Nazgul's house? or is it Zatics? While there no doubt certain individuals have contributed more to the community than others, but i must ask would TL be what is is today without the support of your regular TLer? Would this house be anything without the community that supports it? would their really be a house without the community, a community that contributes daily with no agenda, a community built upon practices of altruism like offering advice and suggestions in places like the strategy forums.


Not sure why you're so upset to be honest. I'm not claiming to be any expert on age/social demographics, just stating that being politically correct is overrated and it's impossible to understand teenagers these days when they text/write something on the internet. Also you fail to address what zatic said in response to your post, which was something along the lines of: doesn't it seem a little rude to respond to somebody who takes a good amount of time to upload replays and analyze their play with "sorry I didn't watch the replay, but you should do XXX anyways" It doesn't matter how in-depth you think you're being, chances are half of the stuff you talk about doesn't apply. Watch the damn replay.

The new enforcement may indeed eliminate some helpful posters who don't really want to put any time into examining replays, but it eliminates a LOT of the random garbage that people post for the sake of posting. If you really disagree with it so much, I don't know what to tell you except look elsewhere for your Starcraft 2 knowledge. It's obvious TL wants a different environment than you do.

You'll find that people who ask for help in a coherent, well thought-out, self-critical way get similar responses from people who will take the time to watch their replays and tell them what went wrong. The altruism is still there we're just going for better post content.


this has nothing to do with being "politically correct". You are making sweeping generalizations that are well...simply not true. Also that they are tremendously insulting to people who are these "teenagers who are impossible to understand".

"it obvious TL wants a different environment than you do".

that is so far from true. I am just presenting what i see as potential problems with instituting such a policy. If it turns out this is will be an effective way to improve the content, IM ALL FOR IT. I just think it may not, and I am concerned about the fallout of this new policy.
"Good news MLG fans, WE HAVE CHAIRS THIS YEAR!"
GhettoSheep
Profile Joined August 2008
United States150 Posts
April 14 2011 00:36 GMT
#192
On April 06 2011 11:18 Nonei wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2011 16:19 gnurk wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=209256
useless guide as it has been mentioned before and is common sense..


I don't know... it seems like there are quite a few replies from people that hadn't thought of it. Many of the replies are useless, of course, but as to the OP - it is simple, yes, but is pretty useful to a newbie like myself and not necessarily common sense. AND the OP spent time and thought on the post including pictures. Seems like that may be exactly the kind of post (and poster) you want to include in the strategy forums...


I wasn't aware that you could que up the retreat back into the medivac and fly away without ever having to go back and micro it. Simple but not obvious and I'm betting a lot of people didn't know queing could do that much so efficiently. Until now I still tried to micro each individual drop and had to go back to each and reload in the medivac. Im glad I read this thread so I could find that one lol.
GhettoSheep
Profile Joined August 2008
United States150 Posts
April 14 2011 00:39 GMT
#193
On April 13 2011 21:49 Cibron wrote:
I don't agree on theory crafting always being bad. Proposing untried methods of dealing with certain situations is different from suggesting stupid game changing stuff like "zerglings should fly".


Just suggesting some random strategy without trying it is silly and just evidence of a lazy poster. At least try it out and put some effort in before you post. Otherwise it's just as useless as those threads titled "What do you think of colossus?" and the OP reads like "I think they're really good, what do you guys think?"
Aequos
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada606 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 04:01:36
April 14 2011 00:45 GMT
#194
On April 14 2011 09:35 Strategos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2011 09:18 ZasZ. wrote:
On April 14 2011 08:39 Strategos wrote:
On April 14 2011 04:32 ZasZ. wrote:
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.


1) No you can't. There are many little nuances to every game and describing it as "[H] ZvT Marine/Tank push" isn't enough to give posters an idea of what went wrong. Even if the OP does a great job of analyzing their game and posting a list of things they think went wrong, chances are they missed something, and you won't know it unless you watch the replay. Posting anything without watching the replay is probably theorycrafting and not helpful in the slightest to the OP. If you don't want to watch the replay, that's fine, just don't give him advice on the game then.

2) You seem to write just fine. Nobody is asking anybody to write like "shakespeare or an English PhD." Of course a big portion of the player base does not speak English as their first language, but it just so happens to be the language that TL uses to discuss and communicate. If you are going to post, people need to be able to understand you and not get brain cancer in the process. Also, as somebody who spent a lot of time dealing with "14 year old girls" right when instant messaging and text messages started to become popular in the US (I'm 23), I can tell you that it's not sexist at all. 14 year old girls really do talk like that, and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. It's completely unintelligible.

Starcraft 2 General is an open forum where the community can discuss Starcraft (although you still can't be an idiot). The strategy forum is a moderated forum where people who are completely stumped can try to ask for help, people who have thought long and hard about a topic can put it up for discussion, and people much, much better than us at this game can post informative guides that help your average TL'er get better at the game.


I don't know what i find more ridiculous and quite frankly, hilarious, the fact that you think you're an expert on the social phenomenon of texting in prepubescent girls, or the fact that you think (hypothetical speaking) a high level diamond/masters would be unable to help say a silver player with their game given the information that the OP of any given post has stated. but that is not the point of this post, i am not here to argue over trivialities or whether the small sample of 14 year old girls you have dealt with in your limited time is enough evidence for you to draw the sweeping conclusions that you so strongly do, but again that isn't the point of this post.

all im saying is as a member of the community I do enjoy browsing the stratergy forums, and when I do see opportunities where i can contribute to another's progression, by offering constructive and meaningful advice, i do my best to do so .

However if you were to say that from this day forward, TLers cannot comment on any strategy post without watching the replay so be it. I lose nothing, but make no mistake, a policy like this will absolutely decimate a good number of valuable contributions as I am sure this will throw off many other people who have alot experience with starcraft from making contributions.

Now i understand the concern and well the intent of this post, the stratergy forum has of late been on a downward decline, however whether or not these particular changes will solve the problem, I am unsure, and am highly skeptical.

I have given my reasons why i don't think this is a good idea, but as another poster mentioned earlier, this is "NOT YOUR HOUSE", "thats why you opinions don't matter! Because the rules says so!!!!"

which then i guess raises the question who's house is it? I cannot say i have an answer. Is it Nazgul's house? or is it Zatics? While there no doubt certain individuals have contributed more to the community than others, but i must ask would TL be what is is today without the support of your regular TLer? Would this house be anything without the community that supports it? would their really be a house without the community, a community that contributes daily with no agenda, a community built upon practices of altruism like offering advice and suggestions in places like the strategy forums.


Not sure why you're so upset to be honest. I'm not claiming to be any expert on age/social demographics, just stating that being politically correct is overrated and it's impossible to understand teenagers these days when they text/write something on the internet. Also you fail to address what zatic said in response to your post, which was something along the lines of: doesn't it seem a little rude to respond to somebody who takes a good amount of time to upload replays and analyze their play with "sorry I didn't watch the replay, but you should do XXX anyways" It doesn't matter how in-depth you think you're being, chances are half of the stuff you talk about doesn't apply. Watch the damn replay.

The new enforcement may indeed eliminate some helpful posters who don't really want to put any time into examining replays, but it eliminates a LOT of the random garbage that people post for the sake of posting. If you really disagree with it so much, I don't know what to tell you except look elsewhere for your Starcraft 2 knowledge. It's obvious TL wants a different environment than you do.

You'll find that people who ask for help in a coherent, well thought-out, self-critical way get similar responses from people who will take the time to watch their replays and tell them what went wrong. The altruism is still there we're just going for better post content.


this has nothing to do with being "politically correct". You are making sweeping generalizations that are well...simply not true. Also that they are tremendously insulting to people who are these "teenagers who are impossible to understand".

"it obvious TL wants a different environment than you do".

that is so far from true. I am just presenting what i see as potential problems with instituting such a policy. If it turns out this is will be an effective way to improve the content, IM ALL FOR IT. I just think it may not, and I am concerned about the fallout of this new policy.


The problem is that 90% of the OPs really do not detail what went wrong in the replay. They'll say "oh, it was a marine marauder push at 6:25 that killed me" but when watching the replay, you'll notice they had a lot more flaws than the obvious "you need to forcefield better" advice. Perhaps the person did forcefield perfectly, but only had a single sentry when the push came. Perhaps he failed a proxy cheese, but didn't want to tell us this because cheese is considered a bad thing. Perhaps he lost all his probes to a reaper, and thats why he couldn't fight off the push.

The short description they give us is really not a good description at all. "Having problems with Colossus" could translate to anything from "two-base Colossus/stalker turtle" to "mined out the map base race." You can't give advice like "build more corruptors" or "nydus more" or "harass more with mutalisks" because you don't know what situation he was in, how he got there, or what solution you would've taken were you there. Should he have gotten an earlier spire, or was something wrong with his drone production.

My opinion is that unless you read the OP, and watch the replay, there really is nothing useful you can contribute that liquipedia could not. Anyone can go look up a counter to a unit - it takes someone analyzing it to show a better way to do it.

Edit: Thank you for the kind words Dhalphir.
I first realized Immortals were reincarnated Dragoons when I saw them dancing helplessly behind my Stalkers.
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 01:03:37
April 14 2011 00:46 GMT
#195
On April 14 2011 08:39 Strategos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2011 04:32 ZasZ. wrote:
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.


1) No you can't. There are many little nuances to every game and describing it as "[H] ZvT Marine/Tank push" isn't enough to give posters an idea of what went wrong. Even if the OP does a great job of analyzing their game and posting a list of things they think went wrong, chances are they missed something, and you won't know it unless you watch the replay. Posting anything without watching the replay is probably theorycrafting and not helpful in the slightest to the OP. If you don't want to watch the replay, that's fine, just don't give him advice on the game then.

2) You seem to write just fine. Nobody is asking anybody to write like "shakespeare or an English PhD." Of course a big portion of the player base does not speak English as their first language, but it just so happens to be the language that TL uses to discuss and communicate. If you are going to post, people need to be able to understand you and not get brain cancer in the process. Also, as somebody who spent a lot of time dealing with "14 year old girls" right when instant messaging and text messages started to become popular in the US (I'm 23), I can tell you that it's not sexist at all. 14 year old girls really do talk like that, and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. It's completely unintelligible.

Starcraft 2 General is an open forum where the community can discuss Starcraft (although you still can't be an idiot). The strategy forum is a moderated forum where people who are completely stumped can try to ask for help, people who have thought long and hard about a topic can put it up for discussion, and people much, much better than us at this game can post informative guides that help your average TL'er get better at the game.


I don't know what i find more ridiculous and quite frankly, hilarious, the fact that you think you're an expert on the social phenomenon of texting in prepubescent girls, or the fact that you think (hypothetical speaking) a high level diamond/masters would be unable to help say a silver player with their game given the information that the OP of any given post has stated. but that is not the point of this post, i am not here to argue over trivialities or whether the small sample of 14 year old girls you have dealt with in your limited time is enough evidence for you to draw the sweeping conclusions that you so strongly do, but again that isn't the point of this post.

all im saying is as a member of the community I do enjoy browsing the stratergy forums, and when I do see opportunities where i can contribute to another's progression, by offering constructive and meaningful advice, i do my best to do so .

However if you were to say that from this day forward, TLers cannot comment on any strategy post without watching the replay so be it. I lose nothing, but make no mistake, a policy like this will absolutely decimate a good number of valuable contributions as I am sure this will throw off many other people who have alot experience with starcraft from making contributions.

Now i understand the concern and well the intent of this post, the stratergy forum has of late been on a downward decline, however whether or not these particular changes will solve the problem, I am unsure, and am highly skeptical.

I have given my reasons why i don't think this is a good idea, but as another poster mentioned earlier, this is "NOT YOUR HOUSE", "thats why you opinions don't matter! Because the rules says so!!!!"

which then i guess raises the question who's house is it? I cannot say i have an answer. Is it Nazgul's house? or is it Zatics? While there no doubt certain individuals have contributed more to the community than others, but i must ask would TL be what is is today without the support of your regular TLer? Would this house be anything without the community that supports it? would their really be a house without the community, a community that contributes daily with no agenda, a community built upon practices of altruism like offering advice and suggestions in places like the strategy forums.


Way to be overdramatic over your 100 post history on TL.net. No-one would care if you left, if TL needed every person they could get they wouldn't be actively banning bad posters. Because that's what's happening, people who ruin the strategy forums by bad posting are getting banned as to show it is no longer accepted. TL is doing YOU a favor by hosting this great site, not the other way around, as such it's called THEIR HOUSE.

It all really isn't that hard to understand, but some people just seem to be born to complain about everything that happens on the internet, nitpicking every little detail they can even though they know there's good intentions behind them. Disgusting that people feel like they have done something significant by opening their browser and typing in the name of a site and enter, like they deserve credit for that work and are entitled to do what they desire because of it. No, people come to TL because it's the best and continues to strife towards being the best (as the purge demonstrates). You're not coming here out of the goodness of your heart, you're here because TL delivers, there's simply no equal alternative.

It's been said over and over, people who post badly in the Strategy forums are getting banned simply because there's more bad advice than vice versa, it's not the goal of the Strategy section to give incorrect, incomplete or irrelevant information. It's goal is to be the best tool of improvement for players of all levels across the internet and that's not going to be achieved by having large amounts of well meant, but wrong, advice floating around and concealing the factually correct replies. Asking nicely to not post if you don't actually have anything useful to say isn't working, so TL has to get out their hammer and force certain posters not to post. You can pretend they're doing it because they hate bronze leaguers or simply to abuse their moderating powers, but anyone who has been around TL for more than a month knows that's just not true.

Bottom line, if you don't post like crap you're not going to get banned. If you don't have the time to watch a replay, there's no need for you to make a post. I doesn't take a genius to see that 90% of "didn't watch the replay, but" posts are BS from the get go since they discuss builds, attacks or unit compositions that never even happen in the posted game. If you like posting in the SC2 Strategy Forums you just have to earn it by acquiring actucal SC2 strategy knowledge, if not, just read and learn from the other posters who are guaranteed to give you good advice. There's plenty of less serious threads and sections where you can drop your guard and have some fun, may I recommend NaDa's Body?
I think esports is pretty nice.
Strategos
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada132 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 01:16:10
April 14 2011 01:09 GMT
#196
On April 14 2011 09:46 Saechiis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2011 08:39 Strategos wrote:
On April 14 2011 04:32 ZasZ. wrote:
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.


1) No you can't. There are many little nuances to every game and describing it as "[H] ZvT Marine/Tank push" isn't enough to give posters an idea of what went wrong. Even if the OP does a great job of analyzing their game and posting a list of things they think went wrong, chances are they missed something, and you won't know it unless you watch the replay. Posting anything without watching the replay is probably theorycrafting and not helpful in the slightest to the OP. If you don't want to watch the replay, that's fine, just don't give him advice on the game then.

2) You seem to write just fine. Nobody is asking anybody to write like "shakespeare or an English PhD." Of course a big portion of the player base does not speak English as their first language, but it just so happens to be the language that TL uses to discuss and communicate. If you are going to post, people need to be able to understand you and not get brain cancer in the process. Also, as somebody who spent a lot of time dealing with "14 year old girls" right when instant messaging and text messages started to become popular in the US (I'm 23), I can tell you that it's not sexist at all. 14 year old girls really do talk like that, and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. It's completely unintelligible.

Starcraft 2 General is an open forum where the community can discuss Starcraft (although you still can't be an idiot). The strategy forum is a moderated forum where people who are completely stumped can try to ask for help, people who have thought long and hard about a topic can put it up for discussion, and people much, much better than us at this game can post informative guides that help your average TL'er get better at the game.


I don't know what i find more ridiculous and quite frankly, hilarious, the fact that you think you're an expert on the social phenomenon of texting in prepubescent girls, or the fact that you think (hypothetical speaking) a high level diamond/masters would be unable to help say a silver player with their game given the information that the OP of any given post has stated. but that is not the point of this post, i am not here to argue over trivialities or whether the small sample of 14 year old girls you have dealt with in your limited time is enough evidence for you to draw the sweeping conclusions that you so strongly do, but again that isn't the point of this post.

all im saying is as a member of the community I do enjoy browsing the stratergy forums, and when I do see opportunities where i can contribute to another's progression, by offering constructive and meaningful advice, i do my best to do so .

However if you were to say that from this day forward, TLers cannot comment on any strategy post without watching the replay so be it. I lose nothing, but make no mistake, a policy like this will absolutely decimate a good number of valuable contributions as I am sure this will throw off many other people who have alot experience with starcraft from making contributions.

Now i understand the concern and well the intent of this post, the stratergy forum has of late been on a downward decline, however whether or not these particular changes will solve the problem, I am unsure, and am highly skeptical.

I have given my reasons why i don't think this is a good idea, but as another poster mentioned earlier, this is "NOT YOUR HOUSE", "thats why you opinions don't matter! Because the rules says so!!!!"

which then i guess raises the question who's house is it? I cannot say i have an answer. Is it Nazgul's house? or is it Zatics? While there no doubt certain individuals have contributed more to the community than others, but i must ask would TL be what is is today without the support of your regular TLer? Would this house be anything without the community that supports it? would their really be a house without the community, a community that contributes daily with no agenda, a community built upon practices of altruism like offering advice and suggestions in places like the strategy forums.


Way to be overdramatic over your 100 post history on TL.net. No-one would care if you left, if TL needed every person they could get they wouldn't be actively banning bad posters. Because that's what's happening, people who ruin the strategy forums by bad posting are getting banned as to show it is no longer accepted. TL is doing YOU a favor by hosting this great site, not the other way around, as such it's called THEIR HOUSE.

It all really isn't that hard to understand, but some people just seem to be born to complain about everything that happens on the internet, nitpicking every little detail they can even though they know there's good intentions behind them. Disgusting that people feel like they have done something significant by opening their browser and typing in the name of a site and enter, like they deserve credit for that work and are entitled to do what they desire because of it. No, people come to TL because it's the best and continues to strife towards being the best (as the purge demonstrates). You're not coming here out of the goodness of your heart, you're here because TL delivers, there's simply no equal alternative.

It's been said over and over, people who post badly in the Strategy forums are getting banned simply because there's more bad advice than vice versa, it's not the goal of the Strategy section to give incorrect, incomplete or irrelevant information. It's goal is to be the best tool of improvement for players of all levels across the internet and that's not going to be achieved by having large amounts of well meant, but wrong, advice floating around and concealing the factually correct replies. Asking nicely to not post if you don't actually have anything useful to say isn't working, so TL has to get out their hammer and force certain posters not to post. You can pretend they're doing it because they hate bronze leaguers or simply to abuse their moderating powers, but anyone who has been around TL for more than a month knows that's just not true.

Bottom line, if you don't post like crap you're not going to get banned. If you don't have the time to watch a replay, there's no need for you to make a post. I doesn't take a genius to see that 90% of "didn't watch the replay, but" posts are BS from the get go since they discuss builds, attacks or unit compositions that never even happen in the posted game. If you like posting in the SC2 Strategy Forums you just have to earn it by acquiring actucal SC2 strategy knowledge, if not, just read and learn from the other posters who are guaranteed to give you good advice. There's plenty of less serious threads and sections where you can drop your guard and have some fun, may I recommend NaDa's Body?



I'm sorry it seems like you have totally misunderstood my post, that is quite unfortunate, maybe you can re-read it more carefully.

Interesting point you make, "TL is doing YOU a favor". No doubt TL is doing all of us a favor, but isn't TL All of us as well? Or are some of the posters here "TL" and others are not? if so who is TL and who isn't? I don't really understand your point. I'm not claiming to be entitled to anything so your paragraph about how you are disgusted blah blah is irrelevant, i am trying to offer meaningful suggestions to fix the problem we are having, does that disgust you? If so then maybe the problem is with you.

But you are damn right in one point. "You're not coming here out of the goodness of your heart, you're here because TL delivers, there's simply no equal alternative." I could not agree more, and i think that is why most ppl enjoy comming to TL, because it delivers quality content. Thus it makes even more sense for me to want TL to do WELL. In fact it is in my interest for TL to do well , and that is why i raise these objections, so that it may continue to do so.

I do believe I have raised reasons why this policy might be concerning to the content on TL above, if you would like you could go back and re-read them.
"Good news MLG fans, WE HAVE CHAIRS THIS YEAR!"
oZii
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1198 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 01:21:13
April 14 2011 01:18 GMT
#197
On April 14 2011 09:35 Strategos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2011 09:18 ZasZ. wrote:
On April 14 2011 08:39 Strategos wrote:
On April 14 2011 04:32 ZasZ. wrote:
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.


1) No you can't. There are many little nuances to every game and describing it as "[H] ZvT Marine/Tank push" isn't enough to give posters an idea of what went wrong. Even if the OP does a great job of analyzing their game and posting a list of things they think went wrong, chances are they missed something, and you won't know it unless you watch the replay. Posting anything without watching the replay is probably theorycrafting and not helpful in the slightest to the OP. If you don't want to watch the replay, that's fine, just don't give him advice on the game then.

2) You seem to write just fine. Nobody is asking anybody to write like "shakespeare or an English PhD." Of course a big portion of the player base does not speak English as their first language, but it just so happens to be the language that TL uses to discuss and communicate. If you are going to post, people need to be able to understand you and not get brain cancer in the process. Also, as somebody who spent a lot of time dealing with "14 year old girls" right when instant messaging and text messages started to become popular in the US (I'm 23), I can tell you that it's not sexist at all. 14 year old girls really do talk like that, and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. It's completely unintelligible.

Starcraft 2 General is an open forum where the community can discuss Starcraft (although you still can't be an idiot). The strategy forum is a moderated forum where people who are completely stumped can try to ask for help, people who have thought long and hard about a topic can put it up for discussion, and people much, much better than us at this game can post informative guides that help your average TL'er get better at the game.


I don't know what i find more ridiculous and quite frankly, hilarious, the fact that you think you're an expert on the social phenomenon of texting in prepubescent girls, or the fact that you think (hypothetical speaking) a high level diamond/masters would be unable to help say a silver player with their game given the information that the OP of any given post has stated. but that is not the point of this post, i am not here to argue over trivialities or whether the small sample of 14 year old girls you have dealt with in your limited time is enough evidence for you to draw the sweeping conclusions that you so strongly do, but again that isn't the point of this post.

all im saying is as a member of the community I do enjoy browsing the stratergy forums, and when I do see opportunities where i can contribute to another's progression, by offering constructive and meaningful advice, i do my best to do so .

However if you were to say that from this day forward, TLers cannot comment on any strategy post without watching the replay so be it. I lose nothing, but make no mistake, a policy like this will absolutely decimate a good number of valuable contributions as I am sure this will throw off many other people who have alot experience with starcraft from making contributions.

Now i understand the concern and well the intent of this post, the stratergy forum has of late been on a downward decline, however whether or not these particular changes will solve the problem, I am unsure, and am highly skeptical.

I have given my reasons why i don't think this is a good idea, but as another poster mentioned earlier, this is "NOT YOUR HOUSE", "thats why you opinions don't matter! Because the rules says so!!!!"

which then i guess raises the question who's house is it? I cannot say i have an answer. Is it Nazgul's house? or is it Zatics? While there no doubt certain individuals have contributed more to the community than others, but i must ask would TL be what is is today without the support of your regular TLer? Would this house be anything without the community that supports it? would their really be a house without the community, a community that contributes daily with no agenda, a community built upon practices of altruism like offering advice and suggestions in places like the strategy forums.


Not sure why you're so upset to be honest. I'm not claiming to be any expert on age/social demographics, just stating that being politically correct is overrated and it's impossible to understand teenagers these days when they text/write something on the internet. Also you fail to address what zatic said in response to your post, which was something along the lines of: doesn't it seem a little rude to respond to somebody who takes a good amount of time to upload replays and analyze their play with "sorry I didn't watch the replay, but you should do XXX anyways" It doesn't matter how in-depth you think you're being, chances are half of the stuff you talk about doesn't apply. Watch the damn replay.

The new enforcement may indeed eliminate some helpful posters who don't really want to put any time into examining replays, but it eliminates a LOT of the random garbage that people post for the sake of posting. If you really disagree with it so much, I don't know what to tell you except look elsewhere for your Starcraft 2 knowledge. It's obvious TL wants a different environment than you do.

You'll find that people who ask for help in a coherent, well thought-out, self-critical way get similar responses from people who will take the time to watch their replays and tell them what went wrong. The altruism is still there we're just going for better post content.


this has nothing to do with being "politically correct". You are making sweeping generalizations that are well...simply not true. Also that they are tremendously insulting to people who are these "teenagers who are impossible to understand".

"it obvious TL wants a different environment than you do".

that is so far from true. I am just presenting what i see as potential problems with instituting such a policy. If it turns out this is will be an effective way to improve the content, IM ALL FOR IT. I just think it may not, and I am concerned about the fallout of this new policy.



Strategos you seem like a very smart individual, but I think you are over complicating the issue. I am sure your concerns for the state of TL is much appreciated which you could do here. TL Website Feedback That is in TL commandment 1 after all.

If you look at TL as a Physical Establishment as opposed to just a Starcraft website its a pretty simple idea. Its their place of business so they have the right to refuse service to anyone they want. Or in this case ban based on what they feel doesn't meet TL standards. If you don't like the rules they have in place then you can go somewhere else. Thats pretty cut and dry, and the majority of the people here understand this rule and will abide by it in order to continue to soak up the good knowledge and great Starcraft hub that TL is. It is the best for a reason. I am sure the staff took some of your same concerns into consideration. I remember Kennigt even saying on a SoTG that they have been thinking for months about how to clean up the forums. This wasn't a swift decision it took time and this is the choice they have made. If there is a backlash and the site becomes unpopular that will be on the TL staff's minds to ponder what happened. Unless your apart of the staff you shouldn't really worry about what might happen because of a Policy you see is to harsh. If you feel strongly about it give them feedback in the above link.

If people leave because of the policy then that is their choice. The policy doesn't say anything about them wanting to turn people away because they think your dumb. It just says this is our standard for posting in the strategy section. Abide by the standard or don't post. If you post you will be banned if you haven't done x,y, and z.

To simplify I might be able to listen to music and study. That doesn't give me the right to go into a library with my music blasting or speaking loud with my friends. The library wants a quite environment so I either be quite or go somewhere else. Pretty simple.
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
April 14 2011 02:50 GMT
#198
On April 14 2011 10:09 Strategos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2011 09:46 Saechiis wrote:
On April 14 2011 08:39 Strategos wrote:
On April 14 2011 04:32 ZasZ. wrote:
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.


1) No you can't. There are many little nuances to every game and describing it as "[H] ZvT Marine/Tank push" isn't enough to give posters an idea of what went wrong. Even if the OP does a great job of analyzing their game and posting a list of things they think went wrong, chances are they missed something, and you won't know it unless you watch the replay. Posting anything without watching the replay is probably theorycrafting and not helpful in the slightest to the OP. If you don't want to watch the replay, that's fine, just don't give him advice on the game then.

2) You seem to write just fine. Nobody is asking anybody to write like "shakespeare or an English PhD." Of course a big portion of the player base does not speak English as their first language, but it just so happens to be the language that TL uses to discuss and communicate. If you are going to post, people need to be able to understand you and not get brain cancer in the process. Also, as somebody who spent a lot of time dealing with "14 year old girls" right when instant messaging and text messages started to become popular in the US (I'm 23), I can tell you that it's not sexist at all. 14 year old girls really do talk like that, and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. It's completely unintelligible.

Starcraft 2 General is an open forum where the community can discuss Starcraft (although you still can't be an idiot). The strategy forum is a moderated forum where people who are completely stumped can try to ask for help, people who have thought long and hard about a topic can put it up for discussion, and people much, much better than us at this game can post informative guides that help your average TL'er get better at the game.


I don't know what i find more ridiculous and quite frankly, hilarious, the fact that you think you're an expert on the social phenomenon of texting in prepubescent girls, or the fact that you think (hypothetical speaking) a high level diamond/masters would be unable to help say a silver player with their game given the information that the OP of any given post has stated. but that is not the point of this post, i am not here to argue over trivialities or whether the small sample of 14 year old girls you have dealt with in your limited time is enough evidence for you to draw the sweeping conclusions that you so strongly do, but again that isn't the point of this post.

all im saying is as a member of the community I do enjoy browsing the stratergy forums, and when I do see opportunities where i can contribute to another's progression, by offering constructive and meaningful advice, i do my best to do so .

However if you were to say that from this day forward, TLers cannot comment on any strategy post without watching the replay so be it. I lose nothing, but make no mistake, a policy like this will absolutely decimate a good number of valuable contributions as I am sure this will throw off many other people who have alot experience with starcraft from making contributions.

Now i understand the concern and well the intent of this post, the stratergy forum has of late been on a downward decline, however whether or not these particular changes will solve the problem, I am unsure, and am highly skeptical.

I have given my reasons why i don't think this is a good idea, but as another poster mentioned earlier, this is "NOT YOUR HOUSE", "thats why you opinions don't matter! Because the rules says so!!!!"

which then i guess raises the question who's house is it? I cannot say i have an answer. Is it Nazgul's house? or is it Zatics? While there no doubt certain individuals have contributed more to the community than others, but i must ask would TL be what is is today without the support of your regular TLer? Would this house be anything without the community that supports it? would their really be a house without the community, a community that contributes daily with no agenda, a community built upon practices of altruism like offering advice and suggestions in places like the strategy forums.


Way to be overdramatic over your 100 post history on TL.net. No-one would care if you left, if TL needed every person they could get they wouldn't be actively banning bad posters. Because that's what's happening, people who ruin the strategy forums by bad posting are getting banned as to show it is no longer accepted. TL is doing YOU a favor by hosting this great site, not the other way around, as such it's called THEIR HOUSE.

It all really isn't that hard to understand, but some people just seem to be born to complain about everything that happens on the internet, nitpicking every little detail they can even though they know there's good intentions behind them. Disgusting that people feel like they have done something significant by opening their browser and typing in the name of a site and enter, like they deserve credit for that work and are entitled to do what they desire because of it. No, people come to TL because it's the best and continues to strife towards being the best (as the purge demonstrates). You're not coming here out of the goodness of your heart, you're here because TL delivers, there's simply no equal alternative.

It's been said over and over, people who post badly in the Strategy forums are getting banned simply because there's more bad advice than vice versa, it's not the goal of the Strategy section to give incorrect, incomplete or irrelevant information. It's goal is to be the best tool of improvement for players of all levels across the internet and that's not going to be achieved by having large amounts of well meant, but wrong, advice floating around and concealing the factually correct replies. Asking nicely to not post if you don't actually have anything useful to say isn't working, so TL has to get out their hammer and force certain posters not to post. You can pretend they're doing it because they hate bronze leaguers or simply to abuse their moderating powers, but anyone who has been around TL for more than a month knows that's just not true.

Bottom line, if you don't post like crap you're not going to get banned. If you don't have the time to watch a replay, there's no need for you to make a post. I doesn't take a genius to see that 90% of "didn't watch the replay, but" posts are BS from the get go since they discuss builds, attacks or unit compositions that never even happen in the posted game. If you like posting in the SC2 Strategy Forums you just have to earn it by acquiring actucal SC2 strategy knowledge, if not, just read and learn from the other posters who are guaranteed to give you good advice. There's plenty of less serious threads and sections where you can drop your guard and have some fun, may I recommend NaDa's Body?



I'm sorry it seems like you have totally misunderstood my post, that is quite unfortunate, maybe you can re-read it more carefully.

Interesting point you make, "TL is doing YOU a favor". No doubt TL is doing all of us a favor, but isn't TL All of us as well? Or are some of the posters here "TL" and others are not? if so who is TL and who isn't? I don't really understand your point. I'm not claiming to be entitled to anything so your paragraph about how you are disgusted blah blah is irrelevant, i am trying to offer meaningful suggestions to fix the problem we are having, does that disgust you? If so then maybe the problem is with you.

But you are damn right in one point. "You're not coming here out of the goodness of your heart, you're here because TL delivers, there's simply no equal alternative." I could not agree more, and i think that is why most ppl enjoy comming to TL, because it delivers quality content. Thus it makes even more sense for me to want TL to do WELL. In fact it is in my interest for TL to do well , and that is why i raise these objections, so that it may continue to do so.

I do believe I have raised reasons why this policy might be concerning to the content on TL above, if you would like you could go back and re-read them.



The only thing you're raising is annoyance. Please open the TL.net Commandments and read that Teamliquid isn't a democracy and isn't pretending to be one. The fact that you're reverting to the argument of "isn't TL all of us as well?" implies that TL is somehow indebted for your membership, which is why I mention detesting people that feel their opinion is weighty on behalf of visiting a site. It also comes off pretentious from a 100 post user to bring up 10 years of community contributions as validation for his opinions, just because you're a part of the community doesn't mean all of the community's contributions were yours. The fact that after 100 posts you already feel entitled to call TL moderation Nazism and make condescending remarks about people who disagree with you or try to make clear that your attitude is disproportionate to your TL history, it doesn't bode well for your TL future.

As for your "concerns", the only thing I could find was you saying you like to give your thoughts without having to watch a replay, which I responded to generously:

+ Show Spoiler +
It's been said over and over, people who post badly in the Strategy forums are getting banned simply because there's more bad advice than vice versa, it's not the goal of the Strategy section to give incorrect, incomplete or irrelevant information. It's goal is to be the best tool of improvement for players of all levels across the internet and that's not going to be achieved by having large amounts of well meant, but wrong, advice floating around and concealing the factually correct replies. Asking nicely to not post if you don't actually have anything useful to say isn't working, so TL has to get out their hammer and force certain posters not to post. You can pretend they're doing it because they hate bronze leaguers or simply to abuse their moderating powers, but anyone who has been around TL for more than a month knows that's just not true.

Bottom line, if you don't post like crap you're not going to get banned. If you don't have the time to watch a replay, there's no need for you to make a post. I doesn't take a genius to see that 90% of "didn't watch the replay, but" posts are BS from the get go since they discuss builds, attacks or unit compositions that never even happen in the posted game. If you like posting in the SC2 Strategy Forums you just have to earn it by acquiring actucal SC2 strategy knowledge, if not, just read and learn from the other posters who are guaranteed to give you good advice.


Maybe you read over it whilst pondering over philisosophical questions like Who is TL? and claiming I haven't read your overarching "concerns".
I think esports is pretty nice.
Strategos
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada132 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 04:01:04
April 14 2011 03:46 GMT
#199
On April 14 2011 11:50 Saechiis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2011 10:09 Strategos wrote:
On April 14 2011 09:46 Saechiis wrote:
On April 14 2011 08:39 Strategos wrote:
On April 14 2011 04:32 ZasZ. wrote:
On April 13 2011 19:00 Strategos wrote:
I'm sorry while i understand you are trying to improve the content of quality i must say this is reminds of of extremist authoritarianism, we come to TL to discuss and chat why cant we post our thoughts if we don't "watch the replay" cant we still have thoughts regarding the topic?

Also seriously? "Typing like a 14 year old girl" are you joking? I'm not sure whether I should be outraged by the ridiculous imposition you put on people to write like shakespeare or a English PHD (specially when considering for a fact a good number of TL'ers do not speak english as their first language) or the blatant sexism/ignorance in the assumption. I ask again, seriously?

This is internet Nazism and I definitely do not support this, and encourage other TL'ers to do so as well.

This is slipper slippery slope that TL is going, I hope the site that I love and hold dear will be what it has always been, an open forum where the community can discuss starcraft without being harassed by cyber bullies and dictators.


1) No you can't. There are many little nuances to every game and describing it as "[H] ZvT Marine/Tank push" isn't enough to give posters an idea of what went wrong. Even if the OP does a great job of analyzing their game and posting a list of things they think went wrong, chances are they missed something, and you won't know it unless you watch the replay. Posting anything without watching the replay is probably theorycrafting and not helpful in the slightest to the OP. If you don't want to watch the replay, that's fine, just don't give him advice on the game then.

2) You seem to write just fine. Nobody is asking anybody to write like "shakespeare or an English PhD." Of course a big portion of the player base does not speak English as their first language, but it just so happens to be the language that TL uses to discuss and communicate. If you are going to post, people need to be able to understand you and not get brain cancer in the process. Also, as somebody who spent a lot of time dealing with "14 year old girls" right when instant messaging and text messages started to become popular in the US (I'm 23), I can tell you that it's not sexist at all. 14 year old girls really do talk like that, and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. It's completely unintelligible.

Starcraft 2 General is an open forum where the community can discuss Starcraft (although you still can't be an idiot). The strategy forum is a moderated forum where people who are completely stumped can try to ask for help, people who have thought long and hard about a topic can put it up for discussion, and people much, much better than us at this game can post informative guides that help your average TL'er get better at the game.


I don't know what i find more ridiculous and quite frankly, hilarious, the fact that you think you're an expert on the social phenomenon of texting in prepubescent girls, or the fact that you think (hypothetical speaking) a high level diamond/masters would be unable to help say a silver player with their game given the information that the OP of any given post has stated. but that is not the point of this post, i am not here to argue over trivialities or whether the small sample of 14 year old girls you have dealt with in your limited time is enough evidence for you to draw the sweeping conclusions that you so strongly do, but again that isn't the point of this post.

all im saying is as a member of the community I do enjoy browsing the stratergy forums, and when I do see opportunities where i can contribute to another's progression, by offering constructive and meaningful advice, i do my best to do so .

However if you were to say that from this day forward, TLers cannot comment on any strategy post without watching the replay so be it. I lose nothing, but make no mistake, a policy like this will absolutely decimate a good number of valuable contributions as I am sure this will throw off many other people who have alot experience with starcraft from making contributions.

Now i understand the concern and well the intent of this post, the stratergy forum has of late been on a downward decline, however whether or not these particular changes will solve the problem, I am unsure, and am highly skeptical.

I have given my reasons why i don't think this is a good idea, but as another poster mentioned earlier, this is "NOT YOUR HOUSE", "thats why you opinions don't matter! Because the rules says so!!!!"

which then i guess raises the question who's house is it? I cannot say i have an answer. Is it Nazgul's house? or is it Zatics? While there no doubt certain individuals have contributed more to the community than others, but i must ask would TL be what is is today without the support of your regular TLer? Would this house be anything without the community that supports it? would their really be a house without the community, a community that contributes daily with no agenda, a community built upon practices of altruism like offering advice and suggestions in places like the strategy forums.


Way to be overdramatic over your 100 post history on TL.net. No-one would care if you left, if TL needed every person they could get they wouldn't be actively banning bad posters. Because that's what's happening, people who ruin the strategy forums by bad posting are getting banned as to show it is no longer accepted. TL is doing YOU a favor by hosting this great site, not the other way around, as such it's called THEIR HOUSE.

It all really isn't that hard to understand, but some people just seem to be born to complain about everything that happens on the internet, nitpicking every little detail they can even though they know there's good intentions behind them. Disgusting that people feel like they have done something significant by opening their browser and typing in the name of a site and enter, like they deserve credit for that work and are entitled to do what they desire because of it. No, people come to TL because it's the best and continues to strife towards being the best (as the purge demonstrates). You're not coming here out of the goodness of your heart, you're here because TL delivers, there's simply no equal alternative.

It's been said over and over, people who post badly in the Strategy forums are getting banned simply because there's more bad advice than vice versa, it's not the goal of the Strategy section to give incorrect, incomplete or irrelevant information. It's goal is to be the best tool of improvement for players of all levels across the internet and that's not going to be achieved by having large amounts of well meant, but wrong, advice floating around and concealing the factually correct replies. Asking nicely to not post if you don't actually have anything useful to say isn't working, so TL has to get out their hammer and force certain posters not to post. You can pretend they're doing it because they hate bronze leaguers or simply to abuse their moderating powers, but anyone who has been around TL for more than a month knows that's just not true.

Bottom line, if you don't post like crap you're not going to get banned. If you don't have the time to watch a replay, there's no need for you to make a post. I doesn't take a genius to see that 90% of "didn't watch the replay, but" posts are BS from the get go since they discuss builds, attacks or unit compositions that never even happen in the posted game. If you like posting in the SC2 Strategy Forums you just have to earn it by acquiring actucal SC2 strategy knowledge, if not, just read and learn from the other posters who are guaranteed to give you good advice. There's plenty of less serious threads and sections where you can drop your guard and have some fun, may I recommend NaDa's Body?



I'm sorry it seems like you have totally misunderstood my post, that is quite unfortunate, maybe you can re-read it more carefully.

Interesting point you make, "TL is doing YOU a favor". No doubt TL is doing all of us a favor, but isn't TL All of us as well? Or are some of the posters here "TL" and others are not? if so who is TL and who isn't? I don't really understand your point. I'm not claiming to be entitled to anything so your paragraph about how you are disgusted blah blah is irrelevant, i am trying to offer meaningful suggestions to fix the problem we are having, does that disgust you? If so then maybe the problem is with you.

But you are damn right in one point. "You're not coming here out of the goodness of your heart, you're here because TL delivers, there's simply no equal alternative." I could not agree more, and i think that is why most ppl enjoy comming to TL, because it delivers quality content. Thus it makes even more sense for me to want TL to do WELL. In fact it is in my interest for TL to do well , and that is why i raise these objections, so that it may continue to do so.

I do believe I have raised reasons why this policy might be concerning to the content on TL above, if you would like you could go back and re-read them.



The only thing you're raising is annoyance. Please open the TL.net Commandments and read that Teamliquid isn't a democracy and isn't pretending to be one. The fact that you're reverting to the argument of "isn't TL all of us as well?" implies that TL is somehow indebted for your membership, which is why I mention detesting people that feel their opinion is weighty on behalf of visiting a site. It also comes off pretentious from a 100 post user to bring up 10 years of community contributions as validation for his opinions, just because you're a part of the community doesn't mean all of the community's contributions were yours. The fact that after 100 posts you already feel entitled to call TL moderation Nazism and make condescending remarks about people who disagree with you or try to make clear that your attitude is disproportionate to your TL history, it doesn't bode well for your TL future.

As for your "concerns", the only thing I could find was you saying you like to give your thoughts without having to watch a replay, which I responded to generously:

+ Show Spoiler +
It's been said over and over, people who post badly in the Strategy forums are getting banned simply because there's more bad advice than vice versa, it's not the goal of the Strategy section to give incorrect, incomplete or irrelevant information. It's goal is to be the best tool of improvement for players of all levels across the internet and that's not going to be achieved by having large amounts of well meant, but wrong, advice floating around and concealing the factually correct replies. Asking nicely to not post if you don't actually have anything useful to say isn't working, so TL has to get out their hammer and force certain posters not to post. You can pretend they're doing it because they hate bronze leaguers or simply to abuse their moderating powers, but anyone who has been around TL for more than a month knows that's just not true.

Bottom line, if you don't post like crap you're not going to get banned. If you don't have the time to watch a replay, there's no need for you to make a post. I doesn't take a genius to see that 90% of "didn't watch the replay, but" posts are BS from the get go since they discuss builds, attacks or unit compositions that never even happen in the posted game. If you like posting in the SC2 Strategy Forums you just have to earn it by acquiring actucal SC2 strategy knowledge, if not, just read and learn from the other posters who are guaranteed to give you good advice.


Maybe you read over it whilst pondering over philisosophical questions like Who is TL? and claiming I haven't read your overarching "concerns".


What this got to do with democracy at all? I am confused where you pull these ideas from.

"The fact that you're reverting to the argument of "isn't TL all of us as well?" implies that TL is somehow indebted for your membership, which is why I mention detesting people that feel their opinion is weighty on behalf of visiting a site"


Teamliquid is a community, how does pointing out that IT IS a community show that it is indebted to my membership? the two are unrelated. TL can do without me that is undeniable, I claim no right to anything. But without the community TL would not be what it is, and that is why I am concerned because I am worried that this will be bad for the community as a whole (as i have mentioned many times in my earlier posts).

To restate, I am worried that by implementing these new rules we will prevent people who would normally be offering meaningful contribution from doing so. I understand the problem and I do believe it is an important one to deal with (a lot of people who do offer jank opinions, poor advice etc), I just don't think this is the best way to deal with them. Is It really the case that "people are not watching replays" or is it more of a concern of people just liking to voice their opinions regardless of how meaningful or pointless it is. And if the later is the case then perhaps by asking everyone to watch replays before commenting might not be the solution we are looking for.

I certainly did not intend to come off as "weighty", I was merely trying to voice my concern.

You've been bringing up the fact that I have 100 posts, and sure I may have less posts than you, but I don't that necessarily take away from the actual merit of what my concerns are as a whole are.

You seem to be very angry at me, at what I'm saying and I do not understand why. You misunderstand if you think I do not appreciate what TL is because I DO, and it is because I do appreciate TL for the content it has provided me, that I believe it is important for me to voice my concerns regarding this policy. I assure you I enjoy playing starcraft much more than arguing with you on TL forums.

We seek the same thing, that TL will continue to be the quality site it has been as a result of "10 years of contributions", I hope that you will not misunderstand my intentions as something else.

cheers




"Good news MLG fans, WE HAVE CHAIRS THIS YEAR!"
Dhalphir
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1305 Posts
April 14 2011 03:54 GMT
#200
Strategos you have completely ignored Aequos' great post a few posts above, and it pretty much addresses and refutes every single claim you have.
Supporting TypeII Gaming - www.typeii.net - TypeReaL, TypePhoeNix, TypeSuN, TypeDBS!!
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