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On March 18 2011 13:14 Strategos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:52 Cyclone999 wrote:
Well, IMO Ghosts are more useful then High Templar....so hallucinations won't actually do that much.
Ghosts can actually SHOOT high templar.
They don't need to research EMP (which does 100 damage to shields, aka 100 damage to protoss INSTANTLY unlike storm which takes a time of like 10 seconds to do 80 damage)
Unlike High Templars, they still have +25 energy upgrade for EMP. (amulets being removed)
Their storm (EMP) is combined with Feedback, for the same amount of energy (wdf?)
Ghosts just need one tech- Ghost Academy. High Templars need Twilight Council, Templar Archives, THEN research storm...unlike Ghosts that can use EMP without it being researched.
One last thing- nukes. Provided, it is indeed rare that nukes do go down, but it creates a psychological effect on Protoss (omg is he going for my probes or army or pylons or what)
Anyways, at the topic, even if he baits EMP, ok. So um, EMP's gone down. Ghosts still shooting. Hallucinated templars still doing nothing.
Just how I see Ghosts vs Templars, I guess.
Not much related to the thread though, just food for thought. I just hear a toss crying. EMP rips shields, a storm has the potential to KILL a whole ball of marines without any other factors. If P's shields are loss the T still has to attack (i.e you need other units) to potentially win against the P If P lands some nice storms, half the m&m ball dies (the marines). so no i don't agree ht's are more "useful" then ghosts.
Last I checked, you still need other units other than HT even if you're fighting a Terran so terrible storms alone kill his army. Or do you plan to storm all his buildings to death?
Besides, when your post is incoherent random statements, posting you disagree with a post doesn't mean much. Ghosts remove shields, not HPs, Thanks, I was unaware of what EMP did, you just enlightened the TL community.
One ghost, landing one EMP, does either more damage or effectively the same damage as one HT landing a storm and the units standing in it for the full duration.
Also, why are we talking about some stupid "potential to kill" thing? A nuke has far greater potential to kill than a storm. Oh, well I guess you're going to complain you have a decent amount of time to avoid a red dot. Yes, moving out of an area that you know is going to get you killed if you sit in it is a good idea. Very novel, if only that applied to, say, some other abilities that other units had.
Or do we wish to dance this inept dance of randomly naming absurd and, quite frankly, hard to distinguish from trolling statements, like "Wow, you need to attack with units to make EMP good" Well, thank you. I thought EMP was used to harass probes.
Ghosts are an absolutely amazing unit, and with energy/amulet, so are HTs. The difference is that currently, having a vastly superior macro benefits Templars due to the fact that having many of them helps greatly and having many ghosts does not give that same benefit. One ghost is a vastly better investment than one HT. Ten HTs are a vastly better investment (assuming they don't get EMP'd and have energy to storm) than ten ghosts. It's absurd to keep comparing the two, because they work in completely different ways despite having abilities that seem roughly similar. Templars are good when you have an economy to support a decent amount of them. Ghosts are simply good but don't benefit from a significant increase in numbers, so a vastly superior economy isn't going to scale up the power of ghosts like it would HTs. Sitting here and crying about one being better than the other when they don't even work in the same situations is just inane to the utmost degree.
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I dread the day protosses start using illusions to make me waste banelings :/
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On March 18 2011 21:23 Tgee wrote:
I dread the day protosses start using illusions to make me waste banelings :/
It's coming. Hallucinated Zealots will be good against ling-baneling openers that sit too long on hatch tech. Why just block the banes when you can have them suicide? (its 2 zealots per spell)
I guess Terrans will need to build Ravens and constantly drain their energy with auto-turrets and PDD to avoid feedback damage. But I can only see these sorts of mindgames happening at very high level.
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It actually doesn't work too well when the player has tanks / vikings out. Hallucinate always looks great when it works, but late game you have other things to do.
Ghosts don't really stack very well though. Having 8 of them isn't much better than having 2 against protoss. Having 8 HT is great in pretty much any case. Rather than try to "fool" someone I'd rather send 3 HT off to kill a base.
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Insted of sending my ghosts to emp your 2-3-5 hts i send 5 marines or rauders.Watching jinro play vs socke back in the days and Select tought me this no point wasting aoe spell on 1 ht or 2 or 3 jus send 2-3 units to kill the templar he has to use storm for 3 units and that is not what toss wants.
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This is really cool. I usually have a ton of sentries from my early game so hallucinations would be a dime a dozen. Thanks for the heads up 
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I hate the "EMP doesn't kill anything" argument. It still does effective damage, and yes, shields regenerate, but how often do you see an EMP'd protoss army actually run away in the middle of a big ball vs. ball engagement? It's almost impossible, considering concussive shells and the simple fact that retreating means letting your opponent gets tons of extra hits off.
Also, if people want to just go "lol EMPs don't kill" then well... forcefields don't do any damage at all. I guess they're even worse than EMPs right? Oh wait.
Please don't make dumb statements that just oversimplify things misleadingly.
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Remember that most Protosses forgo getting Sentries when they have Templar tech in favor of more High Templars.
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I snipe HT since I always have ghosts out ahead of my army and cloaked, so it's no huge energy loss.
But I can see myself losing to this strategy, though. IT's damn clever.
But seriously. Stop whining about ghost/HT comparisons. It's a dead horse that needs to be sent off to the glue factory.
Theorycrafting only goes so far, both of these units have been seen do unbelievable amounts of damage to extremely skilled players. Period. Stop obsessing over balance, because I for one don't want to see a ghost with exactly the same strengths and weaknesses as a HT. This game is so varied because of units being better than others. If you're losing to an EMP or a storm, you did something wrong. 99.9% of the players here aren't losing because of unit balance. Spread your army, storms/emp's are greatly reduced.
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Or the Terran gets a raven and /threads this
From my personal experience (Rank1 Diamond), a raven is a MUST in TvP.
-PDD vs stalkers
-DTection
-On the fly no cost Harrasment
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I think it's a good approach but I think the value of sentries is in their forcefields/guardian shield. Using 1 to make 2 HT is a pretty good trade if you can draw out an emp. Generally there are fewer ghosts in a terran army than there are HT in a protoss army.
The "oh a raven takes care of this" argument is a little silly. Unless you went for a fast raven to deny an early obs, you most likely won't be building one unless you scout dts. It's a 100/200 unit from a building that most likely will be reactored and takes 60 seconds to build.
Also, if one sees a cyber core researching after warpgate tech has already been checked out, the more common conclusion would be that it's air weapons and that phoenix or VRs might be in production.
Not to punch a hole in the idea, but if you see templar out ahead alone and undefended, you are better off sending 2/3 stimmed marauders to kill them. While storm is scary, wasting EMP on 2 lone templar is not really worth it.
Hallucinations have been used in situations with colossus, making phoenix's to soak up viking damage is also a good move. This of course is all based on the idea that you still have a number of sentry left from any earlier engagements and they have enough energy to use.
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EPT
