EPTThe Dance Evolves - HT vs. Ghosts - Page 2
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biblical
Australia13 Posts
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Cyclone999
Canada331 Posts
People never mention the fact that EMP damage isn't permanent and can't kill anything. Yes you lose your shields, but shields can regenerate. Storm damage can't be regenerated by Terran except via healing or repair (one costs energy and one costs resources) So while EMP may do its damage instantly, it can't kill your units and to be frank, if EMP didn't do it damage instanty then it wouldn't be an EMP...... its based off a real thing unlike storm. Anywho, I EMP you.... you can run away and regen your shields for free...... you storm me, I have to heal or repair, using a resource. If I don't have any medivacs left then I'm pretty screwed, even if i do run away I can't heal the damage.... If I'm meching (which is getting more popular) then I have to spend MONEY to heal the damage from storm, not to mention most mech is so god damn slow its not worth moving out of the storm half the time lol. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are two sides to every story. While EMP may seem to be better than storm, if you look at it from the POV of storm can kill stuff and its damage is permanent (atleast to a Terran army) then it doesn't seem so much better. When you factor in the fact the EMP does absolutely NO DAMAGE to zerg or Terran units, unlike storm, then storm suddenly starts to win the battle. EMP is great against 1 race. Ghosts are rarely used in any other matchup. HT's are good for all matchups, thats why you have to research storm and why you can no longer warp in and storm on the spot..... 1 HT can stop a drop in its tracks, you can either feedback the medivac before it unloads or storm the drop once its out..... a ghost can't do shit to stop a drop, the only thing a ghost can do is stand there and get killed. EMP is not Storm and feedback in one, its an AOE feedback that can't do any permanent damage. Feedback can one shot stuff, EMP can't. Storm can kill stuff EMP can't. Templars take 5 secs to warp in, ghosts take 45 secs to build. Ghosts are awesome, EMP is awesome, but so is storm. Stop feeling so hard done by and actually think about things from both POV's. Yeah, I know, storm is pretty awesome. And I suppose there are better points to templars. Thanks for elaborating for me, I was always wondering what HTs do better than ghosts, and you just told me. Kudos to you, cheers ^^ | ||
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Tossup
United States208 Posts
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Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:39 FinestHour wrote: Or dance a energy-less Raven around to spot the hallucinations. Terrans rarely bother making Ravens :s | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13407 Posts
Another cool use for hallucinate is as follows: If you hallucinate probes they automatically split your units apart a bit and dropped banelings do less splash damage since they may hit the hallu probes. Hallu probes basically absorb and split units enough to mitigate damage from dropped banelings. Alongside a split the banelings accomplish very litte  | ||
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uNtrue_
United States150 Posts
On March 18 2011 12:17 ZeromuS wrote: Very very cool ideas coming from here. Another cool use for hallucinate is as follows: If you hallucinate probes they automatically split your units apart a bit and dropped banelings do less splash damage since they may hit the hallu probes. Hallu probes basically absorb and split units enough to mitigate damage from dropped banelings. Alongside a split the banelings accomplish very litte Just by making hallu probes they will split your army if you are in a big ball? Do you have a screeny or anything to show me? You've piqued my interest. OT: Yeah, well, I know Terrans that like to get a ton of ghosts and just emp everything. Sacrificing 1 emp for 200-300 energy seems hardly worth it. And if you have less than say 3 Ht, most likely the terran will send a few bio units to pick at them and move his army back. You also have to include the turret and raven he may have positioned well in advance. On top of that, I'd rather have the sentries I have left, GS and ff his bio so he doesn't kite me. I would also like to just focus my time dropping his mineral line and throwing real HT to see what I can pick off. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On March 18 2011 10:13 emythrel wrote: Its lategame, you should already have the sentries from early game and in late game you should be on 3-4 bases of gas income which is more than enough to get whatever tech you want. I don't see how the sentries would still be there from early game unless both of you basically macro to 200/200 without harassment. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13407 Posts
[QUOTE]On March 18 2011 12:17 ZeromuS wrote: Very very cool ideas coming from here. Another cool use for hallucinate is as follows: If you hallucinate probes they automatically split your units apart a bit and dropped banelings do less splash damage since they may hit the hallu probes. Hallu probes basically absorb and split units enough to mitigate damage from dropped banelings. Alongside a split the banelings accomplish very litte [/QUOTE]Just by making hallu probes they will split your army if you are in a big ball? Do you have a screeny or anything to show me? You've piqued my interest. It splits the sentries more than anything else they are what die really quick to banelings. Though I tend to split my army and then hallu a few probes to help absorb some damage since 5 probes appear if a bling hits the middle one then thats the splash radius the bling has :D. Wont uber split the units but they will create a damage buffer did a few times already kinda fun. Also OT: The problem with not making the hallus in the scenarios you describe, is that the hallucinations will help when energy becomes more important without amulet upgrade. Making hallucinations also forces them to make ravens which is one less ghost is it not? | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
Just a thought | ||
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biblical
Australia13 Posts
When you know your opponent is holding a xel naga tower with one marine with your observer. You can hallucinate a bunch of probs and send it pass the tower faking an expansion. When the opponent moves their army out of position you can sack one of their expansions :D | ||
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xiaofan
United States513 Posts
On March 18 2011 12:54 biblical wrote: Just another Idea for hallucination: When you know your opponent is holding a xel naga tower with one marine with your observer. You can hallucinate a bunch of probs and send it pass the tower faking an expansion. When the opponent moves their army out of position you can sack one of their expansions :D im not too sure about the OP but I like this idea better. OP sounds like something that would work in theory. personally i would spend the apm separating my templars than hallucinating. each hallucination takes 2 keyboard buttons; each separation takes 2 clicks. granted clicks are harder to perform, but i still think it's beneficial to split templars | ||
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Strategos
Canada132 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:52 Cyclone999 wrote: Well, IMO Ghosts are more useful then High Templar....so hallucinations won't actually do that much. Ghosts can actually SHOOT high templar. They don't need to research EMP (which does 100 damage to shields, aka 100 damage to protoss INSTANTLY unlike storm which takes a time of like 10 seconds to do 80 damage) Unlike High Templars, they still have +25 energy upgrade for EMP. (amulets being removed) Their storm (EMP) is combined with Feedback, for the same amount of energy (wdf?) Ghosts just need one tech- Ghost Academy. High Templars need Twilight Council, Templar Archives, THEN research storm...unlike Ghosts that can use EMP without it being researched. One last thing- nukes. Provided, it is indeed rare that nukes do go down, but it creates a psychological effect on Protoss (omg is he going for my probes or army or pylons or what) Anyways, at the topic, even if he baits EMP, ok. So um, EMP's gone down. Ghosts still shooting. Hallucinated templars still doing nothing. Just how I see Ghosts vs Templars, I guess. Not much related to the thread though, just food for thought. I just hear a toss crying. EMP rips shields, a storm has the potential to KILL a whole ball of marines without any other factors. If P's shields are loss the T still has to attack (i.e you need other units) to potentially win against the P If P lands some nice storms, half the m&m ball dies (the marines). so no i don't agree ht's are more "useful" then ghosts. | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
@emythrel: If you EMP a templar-dependent Protoss well, it's GG instantly, because Toss armies cannot outrun stimmed bioballs. Without AoE damage, unless Toss went double-forge from the very beginning, bioball will annihilate the Toss army very cost-effectively. Even assuming some Colossi are in the army, unless you've been out-macro'd significantly, the resource sink into now-useless HTs means that P army (including Colossi) should be way inferior to bioball. Obviously storm has more offensive potential, but EMP is far cheaper and lower on the tech tree than storm. Storm is SUPPOSED to be much better than EMP. Thing is, Terran bioballs annihilate gateway units for cost; it is only Colossi or Sentries and HTs that allow Toss to have a chance against Terran in the midgame. EMP is a free-researched ability that allows a Terran to decimate a Toss army if used correctly. I'm not saying EMP is OP or anything, I'm just saying you're being wayyyy to glib by saying "well EMP can't kill you so it's not that great." Absolutely false. If you EMP all a Toss's sentries/templar, or even all but 1 or 2 in a main engagement, particularly now that amulet is gone, it's an insta-win barring major macro failure on Terran's part. Furthermore, stuff like a 4rax Ghost timing attack is murderously difficult to stop, to the point where many P pros have stopped 1 Gate expos altogether. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On March 18 2011 10:39 Cyclone999 wrote: Yeah, I know, storm is pretty awesome. And I suppose there are better points to templars. Thanks for elaborating for me, I was always wondering what HTs do better than ghosts, and you just told me. Kudos to you, cheers ^^ I'm not sure whether that was sarcasm or not, tone doesn't always translate well into lext lol. I will assume for my own ego that you were being sincere ;p Ghosts do alot of things well, I didn't really go into that, because I don't think anyone needs to have the reasons why ghosts rock explained to them. But HT's seem to have this aura around them where people think that without the amulet they will suck, well yeah against ghosts they are now at a disadvantage as they can't warp in and storm. This just means that Protoss will need to plan ahead and use a little more static defence. In TvP specifically I think ghosts have the advantage, always have and always will, but I don't think that is a bad thing. The reason I don't think thats a bad thing is that Protoss have so many cool toys to play with that T need a unit that flat out is better than the protoss equivalent. Thats prolly gonna get me flamed so i'll explain myself: Vikings rock, they kill collosi sooooooo good, but Phoenix are waaay better if micro'd and ofc even un micro'd they take up Viking shots. Rauders kill shit gooooooood, but chargelots smoke them. Marines are OP..... but collosi melt them. Sentries are the shit, FF's can completely change a battle and unless you happen to have a Thor to hand you can't get away. Tanks are pretty cool, but immortals just laugh in their face. This is the way the game is supposed to be, I build something and you build something that's good against it. Ghosts are my only counter to HT's (after all EMP to counter an energy storm? seems like sound physics to me) short of bum rushing you and hoping for the best, ghosts only counter like 2 units in the game HT's and Infestors, and they don't get used to EMP in TvZ......and since this thread isn't about TvZ I won't go into how great Ghosts are against Zerg........ thats for another thread. Protoss and Terran are both really strong and I feel like its a fairly balanced matchup, whomever plays better wins in my experience, other might not agree, thats fine by me.... my opinion certainly isn't the be all and end all (not many people will admit that lol). In a world without the amulet the Protoss will need a new way to help them deal with ghosts, hallucinated HT's might be the answer, time shall tell. All I truely know is if it were me who had designed EMP, it would have designed as a Terran version of Comtaminate. It would shut down a building for a certain amount of time (even Zerg since they are alive and you can make an argument that in the Starcraft universe EMP's can shut off the electrical impluses in the brain for a limited time) and would work as it does now against a unit. Thats just how I would have designed it, but hey ho, gotta live with the tool you are given! edit: If I were really going for it with my version of EMP, if cast over a Psi Storm, the storm would dissapate..... same with fungal, tho I don't know how you would justify that one. However this version of EMP wouldn't remove shields or energy to compensate. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On March 18 2011 13:27 avilo wrote: uh...if P is sending templars in 1 by 1 the good T users try to use like 1 marauder and 2 marines or 2 marauders or what not to rush in and snipe the templar...not use ghosts there... I don't know whatg others are thinking, but I'm thinking that you would hallucinate a few HT's and move in with your deathball plus the hallucinations, leaving your real HT's behind a bit, when the ghost EMP's the hallucinations then you come in with your real ones and storm away.... not sure how viable that would be, as I don't play P, but its gotta work in some situations ;p | ||
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CCalms
United States341 Posts
I would imagine the terran has to really be on top of things to get the emp off, though, as if he is even 2 seconds late then your HT is just standing there alone  And there's no dance like a lone dance | ||
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Schnieder.sc2
United States71 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:39 FinestHour wrote: Or dance a energy-less Raven around to spot the hallucinations. The terran can emp his own raven so feedback does no damage, and then notice that the temps are hallucinations, ALTHOUGH i think hallucinated templar CAN have a really good usage, i think i saw one game, cant remember who went hallucinated collosus, like every time the zerg army was getting close, and then zerg overmade corruptors | ||
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Moja
United States313 Posts
Terran stims 1-3 marauders to snipe your HT (real or fake). Protoss has no good response. | ||
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Foxcraft
Finland32 Posts
On March 18 2011 09:37 biblical wrote: How much energy do I have left on my Orbital Commands?!? The fake HT keep coming!! Why should I scan those if I knew if they are hallucinations? doh | ||
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