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The Dance Evolves
It's late game PvT. Both players are on 4 bases. The Templar Archives is on the field. The Ghost Academy gets thrown down in response. Both players are locked into a deadly dance. EMP, Cloak and Snipe Vs. Feedback and Storm. A tiring tango of micro and quick draw.
But... the dance is about to evolve.
=== The current meta game behind the dance ===
--- From the Protoss perspective ---
I send my HT forward. My goals (by priority) are:
1. Feedback (and kill if lucky enough) a Ghost before being EMP'd or Sniped myself.
2. Storm and soften up an cluster of bio.
3. Feedback a high energy Raven or Medivac to hopefully kill.
--- From the Terran Perspective ---
I send my Ghost forward. My goals (by priority) are:
1. EMP a HT. If cloacked attempt to Snipe HT and gamble for no observers.
2. EMP Sentrys. Eliminate those pesky forcefields.
3. EMP a cluster of protoss units softening up thier shields.
=== How the Game changed ===
While watching Grubby's stream the other day during some jestive practice matches versus beastyqt, Grubby and beasty found themselves in the dance.
When a flash of brilliance came accross Grubby. He hallucinated two High Templar and sent them towards his opponent trying to bait some EMPs. Brilliant!
But alas beastyqt had scanned to track Grubby's army.
And in a brief moment of mockery...
[Beastyqt: Cool story bro] (in jest of course)
... the brilliance had gone.
But in this little insignificant moment arose evolution.
=== The Numbers ===
Hallucination: 100 energy
Hallucination: Creates 2 HT at a time
5 Full Energy Sentrys: 1000 energy
= 20 Hallucinated HT + regeneration
3 full Orbital Commands: 600 Energy
Scan: 50 energy
= 12 Scans + regeneration
I think you can see where I'm going with this. There are new fears to be had!
=== The New Dance ===
Protoss sends a contant steam hallucinated High Templar at the Terran to bait EMP. Terran is forced to scan, waste EMP energy, read the bluff and do nothing, or use other forms of detection to sniff out fake Templar.
There are so many little aspects to the new dance, I'm just going to rattle them off.
Terran has the scan every forward HT. Or gamble!
Scanning the protoss army with forward Ghosts to spot fakes. But it could be a tell if you're advancing!
Protoss knows you've scanned hallucinated Templar and sends a real one forward! He's in my head!
How much energy do I have left on my Orbital Commands?!? The fake HT keep coming!!
Scanning to Snipe observers so I my cloacked Ghosts can snipe the HT!! Huge move!!
Protoss evolves to holding their HT's in Warp Prisms so they can't be EMP'd during the dance!
Terran Ghost circumnavigates protoss' army and Snipes Sentry's from behind!!
Protoss starts throwing DTs at the terran to use up Orbital Command energy!!
Do I choose to be agressive with my high energy Ghosts with cloack play, or be defensive trusting my detection abilities?!?
Forward Observer vs forward Raven play!
> Blink stalkers to snipe raven. But gamble concussive shells and tanks!!
> Do I keep Raven energy high for PDD or low because of feed back threat?!?
> Pheoix and Vikings get thrown into the mix!! So much micro!
Terran starts noticing the energy bar on the fake Templar. Protoss wait until there 10secs left on the hallucination to advance when its over 75 energy!
I'm sure there are lots of other little nuances to this turbulent tango. I for one am excited to see this new Hallucinated High Templar play. I'm excited to see Hallucination evolve in general!
This is why I Love Starcaft!!
To be honest with myself. I feel like I won't see much of this play at all  to be in this position is quiet situational, so many things have to fall into place. But it's fun the imagine the epic micro battle that could take place :D inb4 foreveralong comic 
TLDR; using hallucinated high templar to bait EMP and the Terrans response to this play.
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Or dance a energy-less Raven around to spot the hallucinations.
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This is interesting and will encourage more ravens into the game. If these strats gets implemented, more units will get used and more diversity in the matchup.
But not only hallucinated HTs, even Collosus can be good when going against vikings to have them shoot the fake ones by having them in front of your real ones. Immortals for tanking dmg... etc.
But I understand that you are talking about these micro battles between two spellcasters, and this will spice up the confrontations.
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BRILLIANT.
I've never thought of anything like that. That could be really useful in the lategame when it really is dependent on Ghost vs HT micro to determine battles...thanks for posting about it 
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On March 18 2011 09:39 FinestHour wrote:
Or dance a energy-less Raven around to spot the hallucinations.
If they don't scan the army ahead of time to see the hallucinations (you can always hallucinate after they finish scanning), they have no way of telling it besides the Raven, and they won't get a Raven until they KNOW it's hallucinated units.
The protoss can easily hallucinate after the terran finishes scouting, and he can have hallucinated high templars suicide into terran army "trying to storm" to force terran to go ghosts while you go colossi.
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this is a great idea i'll definitely be trying this. great post
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Well, IMO Ghosts are more useful then High Templar....so hallucinations won't actually do that much.
Ghosts can actually SHOOT high templar.
They don't need to research EMP (which does 100 damage to shields, aka 100 damage to protoss INSTANTLY unlike storm which takes a time of like 10 seconds to do 80 damage)
Unlike High Templars, they still have +25 energy upgrade for EMP. (amulets being removed)
Their storm (EMP) is combined with Feedback, for the same amount of energy (wdf?)
Ghosts just need one tech- Ghost Academy. High Templars need Twilight Council, Templar Archives, THEN research storm...unlike Ghosts that can use EMP without it being researched.
One last thing- nukes. Provided, it is indeed rare that nukes do go down, but it creates a psychological effect on Protoss (omg is he going for my probes or army or pylons or what)
Anyways, at the topic, even if he baits EMP, ok. So um, EMP's gone down. Ghosts still shooting. Hallucinated templars still doing nothing.
Just how I see Ghosts vs Templars, I guess.
Not much related to the thread though, just food for thought.
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I've never quite got why Snipe works against Templars, it was my understanding that they are Psionic beings and not biological (I know they are listed as bio, I just thought psionic beings weren't like us lol)..... but I guess Snipe would suck if it only worked against Zealots lol
I've been waiting for Hallucinate to be fleshed out by the pro's, its always seemed like it has amazing potential to fuck with your opponent. I mean even just hallucinating a couple extra collosi just before you hit sight range could turn a battle in your favour, with the insane apm and micro of the pro's I see this ability becoming a huge part of the Protoss mind games, as a Terran player..... this scares me!
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Neat idea. I like this.
Hopefully I'll remember to try this, I really don't get hallucination enough.
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I think that ultimately in the late game players don't have the gas for this kind of trickery. Protoss are pretty gas strapped as it is making HT's, stalkers, whatever other units they need BEFORE they can afford the sentries which they will need to use for FF's, not a few hallucinated unit in the kind of big engagements you tend to see once HTs are on the field. I just don't see anyone building a few extra sentries just to try to distract a ghost or two which may or may not work.
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dont Terran need to scan to get ghost vision anyway? I mean the moment a ghost could see HT is when he get in feedback range. => scan is almost a must.
also i think HT after next patch will only be used defensively or harras tool due to the cost of it...
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On March 18 2011 09:44 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:39 FinestHour wrote:
Or dance a energy-less Raven around to spot the hallucinations. If they don't scan the army ahead of time to see the hallucinations (you can always hallucinate after they finish scanning), they have no way of telling it besides the Raven, and they won't get a Raven until they KNOW it's hallucinated units. The protoss can easily hallucinate after the terran finishes scouting, and he can have hallucinated high templars suicide into terran army "trying to storm" to force terran to go ghosts while you go colossi.
Raven is/should/always be a strong part of a good terran army. Anyone that goes without one in any game is a silly man
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On March 18 2011 09:52 Cyclone999 wrote:
Well, IMO Ghosts are more useful then High Templar....so hallucinations won't actually do that much.
Ghosts can actually SHOOT high templar.
They don't need to research EMP (which does 100 damage to shields, aka 100 damage to protoss INSTANTLY unlike storm which takes a time of like 10 seconds to do 80 damage)
Unlike High Templars, they still have +25 energy upgrade for EMP. (amulets being removed)
Their storm (EMP) is combined with Feedback, for the same amount of energy (wdf?)
Ghosts just need one tech- Ghost Academy. High Templars need Twilight Council, Templar Archives, THEN research storm...unlike Ghosts that can use EMP without it being researched.
One last thing- nukes. Provided, it is indeed rare that nukes do go down, but it creates a psychological effect on Protoss (omg is he going for my probes or army or pylons or what)
Anyways, at the topic, even if he baits EMP, ok. So um, EMP's gone down. Ghosts still shooting. Hallucinated templars still doing nothing.
Just how I see Ghosts vs Templars, I guess.
Not much related to the thread though, just food for thought.
What you are saying is true if there are only HT and Ghosts on the battlefield. ghosts and HT have to be careful of the gateway units and bio army that will kill the spellcasters, respectively. Also, while ghosts are better than HT in sense that they can attack and use EMP right away with mobius reactor, ghosts cost a lot of resources. So making ghosts waste EMP with hallucination is a good investment for protoss
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On March 18 2011 10:04 NB wrote:
dont Terran need to scan to get ghost vision anyway? I mean the moment a ghost could see HT is when he get in feedback range. => scan is almost a must.
also i think HT after next patch will only be used defensively or harras tool due to the cost of it...
A ghost has sight range of 11. EMP range is 10. Feedback range is 9.
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On March 18 2011 09:52 Cyclone999 wrote:
Well, IMO Ghosts are more useful then High Templar....so hallucinations won't actually do that much.
Ghosts can actually SHOOT high templar.
They don't need to research EMP (which does 100 damage to shields, aka 100 damage to protoss INSTANTLY unlike storm which takes a time of like 10 seconds to do 80 damage)
Unlike High Templars, they still have +25 energy upgrade for EMP. (amulets being removed)
Their storm (EMP) is combined with Feedback, for the same amount of energy (wdf?)
Ghosts just need one tech- Ghost Academy. High Templars need Twilight Council, Templar Archives, THEN research storm...unlike Ghosts that can use EMP without it being researched.
One last thing- nukes. Provided, it is indeed rare that nukes do go down, but it creates a psychological effect on Protoss (omg is he going for my probes or army or pylons or what)
Anyways, at the topic, even if he baits EMP, ok. So um, EMP's gone down. Ghosts still shooting. Hallucinated templars still doing nothing.
Just how I see Ghosts vs Templars, I guess.
Not much related to the thread though, just food for thought.
People never mention the fact that EMP damage isn't permanent and can't kill anything. Yes you lose your shields, but shields can regenerate. Storm damage can't be regenerated by Terran except via healing or repair (one costs energy and one costs resources) So while EMP may do its damage instantly, it can't kill your units and to be frank, if EMP didn't do it damage instanty then it wouldn't be an EMP...... its based off a real thing unlike storm.
Anywho, I EMP you.... you can run away and regen your shields for free...... you storm me, I have to heal or repair, using a resource. If I don't have any medivacs left then I'm pretty screwed, even if i do run away I can't heal the damage.... If I'm meching (which is getting more popular) then I have to spend MONEY to heal the damage from storm, not to mention most mech is so god damn slow its not worth moving out of the storm half the time lol.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are two sides to every story. While EMP may seem to be better than storm, if you look at it from the POV of storm can kill stuff and its damage is permanent (atleast to a Terran army) then it doesn't seem so much better. When you factor in the fact the EMP does absolutely NO DAMAGE to zerg or Terran units, unlike storm, then storm suddenly starts to win the battle.
EMP is great against 1 race. Ghosts are rarely used in any other matchup. HT's are good for all matchups, thats why you have to research storm and why you can no longer warp in and storm on the spot..... 1 HT can stop a drop in its tracks, you can either feedback the medivac before it unloads or storm the drop once its out..... a ghost can't do shit to stop a drop, the only thing a ghost can do is stand there and get killed.
EMP is not Storm and feedback in one, its an AOE feedback that can't do any permanent damage. Feedback can one shot stuff, EMP can't. Storm can kill stuff EMP can't. Templars take 5 secs to warp in, ghosts take 45 secs to build.
Ghosts are awesome, EMP is awesome, but so is storm. Stop feeling so hard done by and actually think about things from both POV's.
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I can't see how Protoss would have the gas for templar AND sentries.
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On March 18 2011 10:10 K3Nyy wrote:
I can't see how Protoss would have the gas for templar AND sentries.
Its lategame, you should already have the sentries from early game and in late game you should be on 3-4 bases of gas income which is more than enough to get whatever tech you want.
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I like the hallucinated templar idea, but the raven would pretty much nullify that concept.
Or the fake templar would just get sniped by two or three infantry stimmed out to the front... no point in Terran bringing his whole army (which could be stormed by the fake templar) to snipe it.
Or siege tanks would kill it before it's even in range of anything.
Now if hallucinated high templar could be cloaked and un-cloaked... just kidding.
But yeah, Terran still has so many ways of dealing with single high templar that they still don't pose the same threads that ghosts do.
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On March 18 2011 10:13 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 10:10 K3Nyy wrote:
I can't see how Protoss would have the gas for templar AND sentries. Its lategame, you should already have the sentries from early game and in late game you should be on 3-4 bases of gas income which is more than enough to get whatever tech you want.
Then let's assume you have mass colossus instead of mass fake units, if we're really going under the assumption that there are no resource limitations at all. This would be far more practical, considering the fact that you can use colossus immediately instead of making high templar and waiting 45 seconds to use them (which is the case, since there's no more KA upgrade). A colossus ball with stalker support and good sentry forcefields would be excellent.
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It's a good idea to have in mind but sentries also need energy for guardian shield and forcefield. Generally, Protoss players don't have any more sentries than needed for guardian shield and forcefields because they cost 100 gas per sentry. This gas is needed later in the game for colossi and templar.
Some hallucinations have worked in the past for things like zealots to tank and some colossi for trickery so I don't see why it couldn't work for templar as well if they have EMP. However, mass hallucinated templar probably isn't very viable.
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I feel like a lot of the responses are coming from the perspective that the Terran knows whats going on. The whole point of hallucination is that you're being tricked into something thats not real. Even baiting one emp means one less emp for when the engagement happens, which could tip the battle. Maybe not over using as a stream like my post implies but just one or twice, or clumping hallucinated HTs as you engage can turn battles.
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People never mention the fact that EMP damage isn't permanent and can't kill anything. Yes you lose your shields, but shields can regenerate. Storm damage can't be regenerated by Terran except via healing or repair (one costs energy and one costs resources) So while EMP may do its damage instantly, it can't kill your units and to be frank, if EMP didn't do it damage instanty then it wouldn't be an EMP...... its based off a real thing unlike storm.
Anywho, I EMP you.... you can run away and regen your shields for free...... you storm me, I have to heal or repair, using a resource. If I don't have any medivacs left then I'm pretty screwed, even if i do run away I can't heal the damage.... If I'm meching (which is getting more popular) then I have to spend MONEY to heal the damage from storm, not to mention most mech is so god damn slow its not worth moving out of the storm half the time lol.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are two sides to every story. While EMP may seem to be better than storm, if you look at it from the POV of storm can kill stuff and its damage is permanent (atleast to a Terran army) then it doesn't seem so much better. When you factor in the fact the EMP does absolutely NO DAMAGE to zerg or Terran units, unlike storm, then storm suddenly starts to win the battle.
EMP is great against 1 race. Ghosts are rarely used in any other matchup. HT's are good for all matchups, thats why you have to research storm and why you can no longer warp in and storm on the spot..... 1 HT can stop a drop in its tracks, you can either feedback the medivac before it unloads or storm the drop once its out..... a ghost can't do shit to stop a drop, the only thing a ghost can do is stand there and get killed.
EMP is not Storm and feedback in one, its an AOE feedback that can't do any permanent damage. Feedback can one shot stuff, EMP can't. Storm can kill stuff EMP can't. Templars take 5 secs to warp in, ghosts take 45 secs to build.
Ghosts are awesome, EMP is awesome, but so is storm. Stop feeling so hard done by and actually think about things from both POV's.
Yeah, I know, storm is pretty awesome. And I suppose there are better points to templars.
Thanks for elaborating for me, I was always wondering what HTs do better than ghosts, and you just told me.
Kudos to you, cheers ^^
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By the time this late game stage happens, scans on army locations is worth more than the minerals they are worth as mules. With 3 or 4 orbitals regenerating energy, it should be enough for any hallucinations that you put up. If terran turret hops, this tactic is worthless.
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On March 18 2011 09:39 FinestHour wrote:
Or dance a energy-less Raven around to spot the hallucinations.
Terrans rarely bother making Ravens :s
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Canada13407 Posts
Very very cool ideas coming from here.
Another cool use for hallucinate is as follows:
If you hallucinate probes they automatically split your units apart a bit and dropped banelings do less splash damage since they may hit the hallu probes. Hallu probes basically absorb and split units enough to mitigate damage from dropped banelings. Alongside a split the banelings accomplish very litte
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On March 18 2011 12:17 ZeromuS wrote:Very very cool ideas coming from here. Another cool use for hallucinate is as follows: If you hallucinate probes they automatically split your units apart a bit and dropped banelings do less splash damage since they may hit the hallu probes. Hallu probes basically absorb and split units enough to mitigate damage from dropped banelings. Alongside a split the banelings accomplish very litte
Just by making hallu probes they will split your army if you are in a big ball? Do you have a screeny or anything to show me? You've piqued my interest.
OT: Yeah, well, I know Terrans that like to get a ton of ghosts and just emp everything. Sacrificing 1 emp for 200-300 energy seems hardly worth it. And if you have less than say 3 Ht, most likely the terran will send a few bio units to pick at them and move his army back. You also have to include the turret and raven he may have positioned well in advance.
On top of that, I'd rather have the sentries I have left, GS and ff his bio so he doesn't kite me.
I would also like to just focus my time dropping his mineral line and throwing real HT to see what I can pick off.
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On March 18 2011 10:13 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 10:10 K3Nyy wrote:
I can't see how Protoss would have the gas for templar AND sentries. Its lategame, you should already have the sentries from early game and in late game you should be on 3-4 bases of gas income which is more than enough to get whatever tech you want.
I don't see how the sentries would still be there from early game unless both of you basically macro to 200/200 without harassment.
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Canada13407 Posts
[QUOTE]On March 18 2011 12:27 evoKe` wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 18 2011 12:17 ZeromuS wrote:
Very very cool ideas coming from here.
Another cool use for hallucinate is as follows:
If you hallucinate probes they automatically split your units apart a bit and dropped banelings do less splash damage since they may hit the hallu probes. Hallu probes basically absorb and split units enough to mitigate damage from dropped banelings. Alongside a split the banelings accomplish very litte [/QUOTE]
Just by making hallu probes they will split your army if you are in a big ball? Do you have a screeny or anything to show me? You've piqued my interest.
It splits the sentries more than anything else they are what die really quick to banelings. Though I tend to split my army and then hallu a few probes to help absorb some damage since 5 probes appear if a bling hits the middle one then thats the splash radius the bling has :D. Wont uber split the units but they will create a damage buffer did a few times already kinda fun.
Also OT: The problem with not making the hallus in the scenarios you describe, is that the hallucinations will help when energy becomes more important without amulet upgrade. Making hallucinations also forces them to make ravens which is one less ghost is it not?
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P's could also start storing their templar in warp prisms.
Just a thought
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Just another Idea for hallucination:
When you know your opponent is holding a xel naga tower with one marine with your observer. You can hallucinate a bunch of probs and send it pass the tower faking an expansion. When the opponent moves their army out of position you can sack one of their expansions :D
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On March 18 2011 12:54 biblical wrote:
Just another Idea for hallucination:
When you know your opponent is holding a xel naga tower with one marine with your observer. You can hallucinate a bunch of probs and send it pass the tower faking an expansion. When the opponent moves their army out of position you can sack one of their expansions :D
im not too sure about the OP but I like this idea better. OP sounds like something that would work in theory. personally i would spend the apm separating my templars than hallucinating. each hallucination takes 2 keyboard buttons; each separation takes 2 clicks. granted clicks are harder to perform, but i still think it's beneficial to split templars
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On March 18 2011 09:52 Cyclone999 wrote:
Well, IMO Ghosts are more useful then High Templar....so hallucinations won't actually do that much.
Ghosts can actually SHOOT high templar.
They don't need to research EMP (which does 100 damage to shields, aka 100 damage to protoss INSTANTLY unlike storm which takes a time of like 10 seconds to do 80 damage)
Unlike High Templars, they still have +25 energy upgrade for EMP. (amulets being removed)
Their storm (EMP) is combined with Feedback, for the same amount of energy (wdf?)
Ghosts just need one tech- Ghost Academy. High Templars need Twilight Council, Templar Archives, THEN research storm...unlike Ghosts that can use EMP without it being researched.
One last thing- nukes. Provided, it is indeed rare that nukes do go down, but it creates a psychological effect on Protoss (omg is he going for my probes or army or pylons or what)
Anyways, at the topic, even if he baits EMP, ok. So um, EMP's gone down. Ghosts still shooting. Hallucinated templars still doing nothing.
Just how I see Ghosts vs Templars, I guess.
Not much related to the thread though, just food for thought.
I just hear a toss crying.
EMP rips shields, a storm has the potential to KILL a whole ball of marines without any other factors.
If P's shields are loss the T still has to attack (i.e you need other units) to potentially win against the P
If P lands some nice storms, half the m&m ball dies (the marines).
so no i don't agree ht's are more "useful" then ghosts.
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I think people here are being very short-sighted; this is a phenomenal idea. Unless Ravens are roaming around by themselves ahead of the main Terran army, it is unlikely that the "dance" between Ghost and HT in the neutral zone between Toss and Terran armies will have detection. Mixing in a few hallucinated templar can really be a cute but effective tactic in lategame, I LOVE this. Of course there are counters, but tactically, it's a great little trick.
@emythrel: If you EMP a templar-dependent Protoss well, it's GG instantly, because Toss armies cannot outrun stimmed bioballs. Without AoE damage, unless Toss went double-forge from the very beginning, bioball will annihilate the Toss army very cost-effectively. Even assuming some Colossi are in the army, unless you've been out-macro'd significantly, the resource sink into now-useless HTs means that P army (including Colossi) should be way inferior to bioball. Obviously storm has more offensive potential, but EMP is far cheaper and lower on the tech tree than storm. Storm is SUPPOSED to be much better than EMP.
Thing is, Terran bioballs annihilate gateway units for cost; it is only Colossi or Sentries and HTs that allow Toss to have a chance against Terran in the midgame. EMP is a free-researched ability that allows a Terran to decimate a Toss army if used correctly. I'm not saying EMP is OP or anything, I'm just saying you're being wayyyy to glib by saying "well EMP can't kill you so it's not that great." Absolutely false. If you EMP all a Toss's sentries/templar, or even all but 1 or 2 in a main engagement, particularly now that amulet is gone, it's an insta-win barring major macro failure on Terran's part.
Furthermore, stuff like a 4rax Ghost timing attack is murderously difficult to stop, to the point where many P pros have stopped 1 Gate expos altogether.
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On March 18 2011 10:39 Cyclone999 wrote:Show nested quote +
People never mention the fact that EMP damage isn't permanent and can't kill anything. Yes you lose your shields, but shields can regenerate. Storm damage can't be regenerated by Terran except via healing or repair (one costs energy and one costs resources) So while EMP may do its damage instantly, it can't kill your units and to be frank, if EMP didn't do it damage instanty then it wouldn't be an EMP...... its based off a real thing unlike storm.
Anywho, I EMP you.... you can run away and regen your shields for free...... you storm me, I have to heal or repair, using a resource. If I don't have any medivacs left then I'm pretty screwed, even if i do run away I can't heal the damage.... If I'm meching (which is getting more popular) then I have to spend MONEY to heal the damage from storm, not to mention most mech is so god damn slow its not worth moving out of the storm half the time lol.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are two sides to every story. While EMP may seem to be better than storm, if you look at it from the POV of storm can kill stuff and its damage is permanent (atleast to a Terran army) then it doesn't seem so much better. When you factor in the fact the EMP does absolutely NO DAMAGE to zerg or Terran units, unlike storm, then storm suddenly starts to win the battle.
EMP is great against 1 race. Ghosts are rarely used in any other matchup. HT's are good for all matchups, thats why you have to research storm and why you can no longer warp in and storm on the spot..... 1 HT can stop a drop in its tracks, you can either feedback the medivac before it unloads or storm the drop once its out..... a ghost can't do shit to stop a drop, the only thing a ghost can do is stand there and get killed.
EMP is not Storm and feedback in one, its an AOE feedback that can't do any permanent damage. Feedback can one shot stuff, EMP can't. Storm can kill stuff EMP can't. Templars take 5 secs to warp in, ghosts take 45 secs to build.
Ghosts are awesome, EMP is awesome, but so is storm. Stop feeling so hard done by and actually think about things from both POV's.
Yeah, I know, storm is pretty awesome. And I suppose there are better points to templars. Thanks for elaborating for me, I was always wondering what HTs do better than ghosts, and you just told me. Kudos to you, cheers ^^
I'm not sure whether that was sarcasm or not, tone doesn't always translate well into lext lol. I will assume for my own ego that you were being sincere ;p
Ghosts do alot of things well, I didn't really go into that, because I don't think anyone needs to have the reasons why ghosts rock explained to them. But HT's seem to have this aura around them where people think that without the amulet they will suck, well yeah against ghosts they are now at a disadvantage as they can't warp in and storm. This just means that Protoss will need to plan ahead and use a little more static defence.
In TvP specifically I think ghosts have the advantage, always have and always will, but I don't think that is a bad thing. The reason I don't think thats a bad thing is that Protoss have so many cool toys to play with that T need a unit that flat out is better than the protoss equivalent. Thats prolly gonna get me flamed so i'll explain myself:
Vikings rock, they kill collosi sooooooo good, but Phoenix are waaay better if micro'd and ofc even un micro'd they take up Viking shots. Rauders kill shit gooooooood, but chargelots smoke them. Marines are OP..... but collosi melt them. Sentries are the shit, FF's can completely change a battle and unless you happen to have a Thor to hand you can't get away. Tanks are pretty cool, but immortals just laugh in their face. This is the way the game is supposed to be, I build something and you build something that's good against it. Ghosts are my only counter to HT's (after all EMP to counter an energy storm? seems like sound physics to me) short of bum rushing you and hoping for the best, ghosts only counter like 2 units in the game HT's and Infestors, and they don't get used to EMP in TvZ......and since this thread isn't about TvZ I won't go into how great Ghosts are against Zerg........ thats for another thread.
Protoss and Terran are both really strong and I feel like its a fairly balanced matchup, whomever plays better wins in my experience, other might not agree, thats fine by me.... my opinion certainly isn't the be all and end all (not many people will admit that lol).
In a world without the amulet the Protoss will need a new way to help them deal with ghosts, hallucinated HT's might be the answer, time shall tell.
All I truely know is if it were me who had designed EMP, it would have designed as a Terran version of Comtaminate. It would shut down a building for a certain amount of time (even Zerg since they are alive and you can make an argument that in the Starcraft universe EMP's can shut off the electrical impluses in the brain for a limited time) and would work as it does now against a unit. Thats just how I would have designed it, but hey ho, gotta live with the tool you are given!
edit: If I were really going for it with my version of EMP, if cast over a Psi Storm, the storm would dissapate..... same with fungal, tho I don't know how you would justify that one. However this version of EMP wouldn't remove shields or energy to compensate.
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uh...if P is sending templars in 1 by 1 the good T users try to use like 1 marauder and 2 marines or 2 marauders or what not to rush in and snipe the templar...not use ghosts there...
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On March 18 2011 13:27 avilo wrote:
uh...if P is sending templars in 1 by 1 the good T users try to use like 1 marauder and 2 marines or 2 marauders or what not to rush in and snipe the templar...not use ghosts there...
I don't know whatg others are thinking, but I'm thinking that you would hallucinate a few HT's and move in with your deathball plus the hallucinations, leaving your real HT's behind a bit, when the ghost EMP's the hallucinations then you come in with your real ones and storm away.... not sure how viable that would be, as I don't play P, but its gotta work in some situations ;p
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You can up the zestiness of this dance by typing /dance to make your hallucinated high templar dance in the face of danger.
I would imagine the terran has to really be on top of things to get the emp off, though, as if he is even 2 seconds late then your HT is just standing there alone
And there's no dance like a lone dance
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On March 18 2011 09:39 FinestHour wrote:
Or dance a energy-less Raven around to spot the hallucinations.
The terran can emp his own raven so feedback does no damage, and then notice that the temps are hallucinations, ALTHOUGH i think hallucinated templar CAN have a really good usage, i think i saw one game,
cant remember who
went hallucinated collosus, like every time the zerg army was getting close, and then zerg overmade corruptors
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This is a good idea but...
Terran stims 1-3 marauders to snipe your HT (real or fake). Protoss has no good response.
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On March 18 2011 09:37 biblical wrote:
How much energy do I have left on my Orbital Commands?!? The fake HT keep coming!!
Why should I scan those if I knew if they are hallucinations? doh
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On March 18 2011 13:14 Strategos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 09:52 Cyclone999 wrote:
Well, IMO Ghosts are more useful then High Templar....so hallucinations won't actually do that much.
Ghosts can actually SHOOT high templar.
They don't need to research EMP (which does 100 damage to shields, aka 100 damage to protoss INSTANTLY unlike storm which takes a time of like 10 seconds to do 80 damage)
Unlike High Templars, they still have +25 energy upgrade for EMP. (amulets being removed)
Their storm (EMP) is combined with Feedback, for the same amount of energy (wdf?)
Ghosts just need one tech- Ghost Academy. High Templars need Twilight Council, Templar Archives, THEN research storm...unlike Ghosts that can use EMP without it being researched.
One last thing- nukes. Provided, it is indeed rare that nukes do go down, but it creates a psychological effect on Protoss (omg is he going for my probes or army or pylons or what)
Anyways, at the topic, even if he baits EMP, ok. So um, EMP's gone down. Ghosts still shooting. Hallucinated templars still doing nothing.
Just how I see Ghosts vs Templars, I guess.
Not much related to the thread though, just food for thought. I just hear a toss crying. EMP rips shields, a storm has the potential to KILL a whole ball of marines without any other factors. If P's shields are loss the T still has to attack (i.e you need other units) to potentially win against the P If P lands some nice storms, half the m&m ball dies (the marines). so no i don't agree ht's are more "useful" then ghosts.
Last I checked, you still need other units other than HT even if you're fighting a Terran so terrible storms alone kill his army. Or do you plan to storm all his buildings to death?
Besides, when your post is incoherent random statements, posting you disagree with a post doesn't mean much. Ghosts remove shields, not HPs, Thanks, I was unaware of what EMP did, you just enlightened the TL community.
One ghost, landing one EMP, does either more damage or effectively the same damage as one HT landing a storm and the units standing in it for the full duration.
Also, why are we talking about some stupid "potential to kill" thing? A nuke has far greater potential to kill than a storm. Oh, well I guess you're going to complain you have a decent amount of time to avoid a red dot. Yes, moving out of an area that you know is going to get you killed if you sit in it is a good idea. Very novel, if only that applied to, say, some other abilities that other units had.
Or do we wish to dance this inept dance of randomly naming absurd and, quite frankly, hard to distinguish from trolling statements, like "Wow, you need to attack with units to make EMP good" Well, thank you. I thought EMP was used to harass probes.
Ghosts are an absolutely amazing unit, and with energy/amulet, so are HTs. The difference is that currently, having a vastly superior macro benefits Templars due to the fact that having many of them helps greatly and having many ghosts does not give that same benefit. One ghost is a vastly better investment than one HT. Ten HTs are a vastly better investment (assuming they don't get EMP'd and have energy to storm) than ten ghosts. It's absurd to keep comparing the two, because they work in completely different ways despite having abilities that seem roughly similar. Templars are good when you have an economy to support a decent amount of them. Ghosts are simply good but don't benefit from a significant increase in numbers, so a vastly superior economy isn't going to scale up the power of ghosts like it would HTs. Sitting here and crying about one being better than the other when they don't even work in the same situations is just inane to the utmost degree.
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I dread the day protosses start using illusions to make me waste banelings :/
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On March 18 2011 21:23 Tgee wrote:
I dread the day protosses start using illusions to make me waste banelings :/
It's coming. Hallucinated Zealots will be good against ling-baneling openers that sit too long on hatch tech. Why just block the banes when you can have them suicide? (its 2 zealots per spell)
I guess Terrans will need to build Ravens and constantly drain their energy with auto-turrets and PDD to avoid feedback damage. But I can only see these sorts of mindgames happening at very high level.
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It actually doesn't work too well when the player has tanks / vikings out. Hallucinate always looks great when it works, but late game you have other things to do.
Ghosts don't really stack very well though. Having 8 of them isn't much better than having 2 against protoss. Having 8 HT is great in pretty much any case. Rather than try to "fool" someone I'd rather send 3 HT off to kill a base.
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Insted of sending my ghosts to emp your 2-3-5 hts i send 5 marines or rauders.Watching jinro play vs socke back in the days and Select tought me this no point wasting aoe spell on 1 ht or 2 or 3 jus send 2-3 units to kill the templar he has to use storm for 3 units and that is not what toss wants.
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This is really cool. I usually have a ton of sentries from my early game so hallucinations would be a dime a dozen. Thanks for the heads up
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I hate the "EMP doesn't kill anything" argument. It still does effective damage, and yes, shields regenerate, but how often do you see an EMP'd protoss army actually run away in the middle of a big ball vs. ball engagement? It's almost impossible, considering concussive shells and the simple fact that retreating means letting your opponent gets tons of extra hits off.
Also, if people want to just go "lol EMPs don't kill" then well... forcefields don't do any damage at all. I guess they're even worse than EMPs right? Oh wait.
Please don't make dumb statements that just oversimplify things misleadingly.
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Remember that most Protosses forgo getting Sentries when they have Templar tech in favor of more High Templars.
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I snipe HT since I always have ghosts out ahead of my army and cloaked, so it's no huge energy loss.
But I can see myself losing to this strategy, though. IT's damn clever.
But seriously. Stop whining about ghost/HT comparisons. It's a dead horse that needs to be sent off to the glue factory.
Theorycrafting only goes so far, both of these units have been seen do unbelievable amounts of damage to extremely skilled players. Period. Stop obsessing over balance, because I for one don't want to see a ghost with exactly the same strengths and weaknesses as a HT. This game is so varied because of units being better than others. If you're losing to an EMP or a storm, you did something wrong. 99.9% of the players here aren't losing because of unit balance. Spread your army, storms/emp's are greatly reduced.
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Or the Terran gets a raven and /threads this
From my personal experience (Rank1 Diamond), a raven is a MUST in TvP.
-PDD vs stalkers
-DTection
-On the fly no cost Harrasment
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I think it's a good approach but I think the value of sentries is in their forcefields/guardian shield. Using 1 to make 2 HT is a pretty good trade if you can draw out an emp. Generally there are fewer ghosts in a terran army than there are HT in a protoss army.
The "oh a raven takes care of this" argument is a little silly. Unless you went for a fast raven to deny an early obs, you most likely won't be building one unless you scout dts. It's a 100/200 unit from a building that most likely will be reactored and takes 60 seconds to build.
Also, if one sees a cyber core researching after warpgate tech has already been checked out, the more common conclusion would be that it's air weapons and that phoenix or VRs might be in production.
Not to punch a hole in the idea, but if you see templar out ahead alone and undefended, you are better off sending 2/3 stimmed marauders to kill them. While storm is scary, wasting EMP on 2 lone templar is not really worth it.
Hallucinations have been used in situations with colossus, making phoenix's to soak up viking damage is also a good move. This of course is all based on the idea that you still have a number of sentry left from any earlier engagements and they have enough energy to use.
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EPT
