EPT[D/H] The zerg scouting timing hole - Page 3
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P0ckets
United States430 Posts
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Albrithe
Canada187 Posts
I guess I need to work on my pylon and building spread ): | ||
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Shadow_Agha
United States68 Posts
With lings, you will able to scout the front of Terran's base. You will search for the following when you scout the front base. - Do they have tech lab on a barrack? - The number of marines / marauders - Is there any factory. You will sac overlord to scout the area of the base where you weren't able to scout with lings. Ideally, you will be searching for these informations. - How many refinery are there? - Is there any factory? - If yes, is there any tech lab making? - Is there any star port? - How many marines are trying to kill off your overlord? Even if you get denied to gain all the possible info, you can still eliminate few possible tech paths that Terran may throw at you. Keep in mind that you will still be guessing your opponent's tech path, but you raised the possibility of your correctness of guess because you scouted. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
slow overlords or lings at the front do not give you any intel if they don't want you to get it. They can show 4 marines to the overlord, take it down long before it reaches where they have their tech, and all you know is that he made at least 4 marines. overseers do not come in time to prepare for anything. Rushing for them is an investment that will cause you do die both to an allin and an expand build. While fake refineries and gas stealing can delay certain builds significantly, if you can't scout that they're going for that build anyway you will still die to it, because different builds require vastly different responses. You can come up with increasingly expensive methods like saccing 2 ovies and 6 lings at once and hope to get lucky, but the point is that, unlike the other races, zerg does not have a cookie-cutter build that can both provide reliable scouting and be in OK shape against whatever has been scouted. | ||
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Tracedragon
United States948 Posts
Overlords without speed are worthless. Ling scouting doesn't do anything against a decent opponent who walls and then hides tech. Overseers/Speedy overlords both cost too much of an investment. Whereas Terran has a horrendously large number of scouting options, and Protoss has observers. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
So yeah imo zerg has the easiest way to scout after the worker dies, atleast i never had troubles scouting as a zerg. 100 minerals and a larva psh ^^ terran pays way more and toss can't even do that. Also a terran always risks to get this extra mule and plays blind for a little longer, zerg can do the same (or just fast tech to lair for an overseer, so your spines are up and your queens saved energy before his push hits) lots of ways to play, but the pro zergs play super risky in the early game so if you copy them you will play super risky as well hehe. (IF you have to play that super risky early game is not for me to decide, i playd super save as zerg and had no probs with that, but then again my opponents are as far away from pro level then i am hehe) PS: where is the fun if you know what your opponent is doing all of the time, because you don't have to pay anything for scouting. And scouting is damn easy in sc2 for every race, except toss they were super good in bw already hehe so no need to improve | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
The 3 queens are quite nice for holding off banshees or vrays, and maybe a few spines at your natural and/or lings/bling vs t, ling roach vs toss. Against protoss, a suicide slow olord can still gather a decent amount of intel, against terran, not as much, but still some. And any time you plan to suicide, be sure to have another olord in transit to be nearby once the first one dies. Generally, you'll be fine against anything before you have lair tech, and always have a ling posted outside their ramp to see any pushes, and if you do throw up a spine or two, and make pure units, all the while injecting like a pro, and you should be fine. | ||
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P0ckets
United States430 Posts
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
All these things are usually enough to tell experienced players what they need to know. If you feel rly in the dark, i feel like getting an extra queen/s can help enough. | ||
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
On February 24 2011 11:40 Spekulatius wrote: Pretty much this. Zerg early game scouting is an extremely sensitive matter, sure. But this should not force you to either go cheese, blind counter or fast lair just for speed without the economy to really benefit from the tech. If you don't feel like you get the information with a slow overlord, bring two from different directions. That's a lot cheaper than the speed tech and it makes sure you get the info you need. Because as SeeDLiNg said, everything that gets brought to kill your overlord is already information. Fast tech/expo - few marines; many marines - threat of an early push. 5 marines take less than 5 seconds to douse an overlord. 5 marines is 250 minerals, 6-7 are spread at the perimeter to the point where you're lucky to maybe see 1 building and MAYBE an addon. Sucks that I only scout the stupid terrans. oh and on macro maps? zerg gotta scout at 7-8 if they don't wanna risk running into a wall-off, and also so they can get their OL to sack in time of 5-6 minutes. it's a joke really, i'd gladly have OL speed at hatch tech. hell i'd delay my speedling to get that. medium maps like metalopolis and close air positions are alright because you clearly get to see what he has before it's even built, it's just a shame with a competative game your scouting information is based on chance. perfect example i'll keep simply just for ZvT, steal gas, doesn't get killed till later because showing many marines shows an active 2rax, if you're lucky you'll get your OL to get killed by 5-6 marines by 6 minutes depending on the map and spawn and you see a fac with a reactor. if he's junk you have within the time it takes for blue flame to research to get a roach warren out if he does a decent marine/BFH push. if he's researching you're guessing between seige and blueflame. if he's no researching he might have starport and addon switch. granted he can't do all of this at once, but it's ridiculous how it's almost like PvP where you'll lose half of the time just because you built the wrong unit. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
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skypig
United States237 Posts
1. If you know the Terran is 1-basing, you know to expect early aggression - for me, this means make more than 2 queens (anywhere from 3 - 6): more Queens = fail banshees = fail hellions = really good creep spread. So more queens eliminates 2 of the things (hellions + banshees) that 1-basing Terrans can do to you. Plus, if you confirm a factory, skip lings and get roaches; they own hellions and also let you pound on the T's wall once the hellion harass is finished. Get a bling nest just in case he goes for an MMM all-in; the investment of getting a bling nest is nothing compared to the economic loss the T faces when his push fails. Once you survive the harass/push, you're way ahead in econ because you're on 2 bases and the Terran is on 1, and you're probably ready to take a third without any opposition. 2. The other things that 1-basing Terrans can do to you are marine/SCV all-ins and marine/marauder all-ins; these are harder to beat back, but good scouting and good micro wins you the game. Just keep lings at the watch towers + outside of enemy base to scout for when he moves out; when he does move out with MMM, slap down crawlers, get your 4+ queens to your natural, and start pumping lings/blings/roaches (blings are ideal, but roaches/lings also work with good surrounds/micro, which should be easy since your creep spread is so good). Queens absorb an obscene amount of damage (175 hp + 1 armor), giving your lings/blings/roaches time to surround and obliterate the MMM. It's actually quite funny to see how effective queens are when mixed with standard ling/bling mixes; they tank so much damage. 3. Slow overlords and ling scouts are better than people are making them sound - only if T hides his buildings really well and conceals his tech/units will you be completely in the dark. If you are completely in the dark, as discussed before, just make more queens, sit back, and watch for his push to start outside of his base. | ||
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TheRealzz
150 Posts
On March 25 2011 08:07 skypig wrote: I think the ZvT scouting complaints are a little excessive - it's true that you don't have perfect information if the Terran is 1-basing with a wall, but it's not as bad as you make it seem. 1. If you know the Terran is 1-basing, you know to expect early aggression - for me, this means make more than 2 queens (anywhere from 3 - 6): more Queens = fail banshees = fail hellions = really good creep spread. So more queens eliminates 2 of the things (hellions + banshees) that 1-basing Terrans can do to you. Plus, if you confirm a factory, skip lings and get roaches; they own hellions and also let you pound on the T's wall once the hellion harass is finished. Get a bling nest just in case he goes for an MMM all-in; the investment of getting a bling nest is nothing compared to the economic loss the T faces when his push fails. Once you survive the harass/push, you're way ahead in econ because you're on 2 bases and the Terran is on 1, and you're probably ready to take a third without any opposition. 2. The other things that 1-basing Terrans can do to you are marine/SCV all-ins and marine/marauder all-ins; these are harder to beat back, but good scouting and good micro wins you the game. Just keep lings at the watch towers + outside of enemy base to scout for when he moves out; when he does move out with MMM, slap down crawlers, get your 4+ queens to your natural, and start pumping lings/blings/roaches (blings are ideal, but roaches/lings also work with good surrounds/micro, which should be easy since your creep spread is so good). Queens absorb an obscene amount of damage (175 hp + 1 armor), giving your lings/blings/roaches time to surround and obliterate the MMM. It's actually quite funny to see how effective queens are when mixed with standard ling/bling mixes; they tank so much damage. 3. Slow overlords and ling scouts are better than people are making them sound - only if T hides his buildings really well and conceals his tech/units will you be completely in the dark. If you are completely in the dark, as discussed before, just make more queens, sit back, and watch for his push to start outside of his base. Why'd you bump this again ? Someone give this guy a warnning! | ||
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Nytmre
United States21 Posts
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
On March 25 2011 09:21 Nytmre wrote: Does anyone know that with Protoss if you take like 3 drones and click on their mineral patch in the main while you distract hime with a small force you can get the drones in since they will walk through the zealot. The use amazing micro skills to look for hidden tech. or just take 1, and sac an overlord because by the time his 1 stalker kills your overlord your drone could have done 20 laps around his base. | ||
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asmo.0
Norway318 Posts
Then there is the issue of actually getting your overlord safely to a spot next to opponents base in time. This is very dependant on spawn locations. F ex, against Terran: (assuming you're playing at a level where terran will in fact go overlord hunting. And you pretty much lose if your first ovie gets killed as a 2rax rush is moving out, f ex if you try to get ovie into position on metalopolis). Meta: 33% chance of getting an overlord into position. (close by air) Shattered: 33% chance (close by air) Scrap: 100% Delta Quad: 80% (takes some time to get crossmap, but will get there in time for some stuff) Xel naga: 0% Tal'darim: 33% Typhon Peaks: 33% (though you can get one behind the natural after that, but cant be sacced that way, just look for expo) Backwater: havent played this much, but I think its 33% Slag pits: 33% My personal preference would be a 50 energy spell on the queen to summon a small fast scourge-like creature for a limited time, that basically works like an hallucinated pheonix. Either that, or increase the base speed of overlords, or make ovie speed a 100/50 on hatch tech... | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
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dementrio
678 Posts
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Wren
United States745 Posts
Observers and Overseers are roughly the same unit, as both are slow (with upgradeable speed) flying detectors that take some teching to get to. One is permacloaked and supplants spectacular war options while it's building, the other morphs from a readily available stock, costs 125|25 more, and maintains supply levels. They're roughly equal, but the permacloak means observers stay alive a whole lot more than overseers do. | ||
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Jesushooves
Canada553 Posts
On March 26 2011 01:06 Wren wrote: Orbital Commands are so ridiculously overpowered, I never want to hear a Terran gripe about either option. They can choose, every 50 energy, either a super-powered supply-less harvester or an instant, large-area, detecting scout anywhere on the map. Observers and Overseers are roughly the same unit, as both are slow (with upgradeable speed) flying detectors that take some teching to get to. One is permacloaked and supplants spectacular war options while it's building, the other morphs from a readily available stock, costs 125|25 more, and maintains supply levels. They're roughly equal, but the permacloak means observers stay alive a whole lot more than overseers do. Not OP at all, if a protoss is going 4gate and puts 2gates on one side of the base and 2 on the other, terran can't see all four with a scan, so you just wasted 300 minerals, Mules don't magically get you ahead in econ of zerg or protoss (assuming protoss uses say half the chrono boost on probes), Mules keep you even. On topic though, if zerg can sac two overlords (early in the game), one from each side of the base, then they will almost certainly find out what terran/ toss is doing. While you may say that is 200 minerals wasted, consider the fact that a scan is 300. Scans are not free, you need the energy on the OC for mules, otherwise you will behind in economy if both terran and zerg/protoss opponent is playing standard. | ||
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