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In ZvT or ZvP, there is a significant scouting timing hole where you are unable to get meaningful information about my opponent's composition or tech path, after the walloff is complete but before overlord speed (or overseer morph) finishes.
There are a lot of issues that this causes, but a single example suffices: a terran player could either have a wad of bio or have 2-port banshees building behind that wall (among other nasty things). Scouting the front can be deceptive -- a player who's going to surprise you with a bio/SCV all-in may only show a handful of marines at the front. You have no way of knowing which it is until too late.
It seems like that as zerg you have several options, none of them terribly palatable:
1) Rush to overlord speed, spending your second hundred gas on lair, and starting overlord speed immediately after. This will get you the earliest possible scout, but you may not see terribly much before you lose the overlord. If you get unlucky and happen to miss a building starport, you just plain die to banshees. Also, this very fast tech means you just plain die to marine/scv all-in; your first warning that this is coming is when your forward zergling sees it. If you have devoted all of your resources to getting an early scout you will just plain die to this, since one round of zerglings is not enough extra help. (A crawler won't finish in time.)
2) Build a sizeable speedling force at tier 1. This keeps you safe from early aggression, but hurts your economy. You gain map control, but you still have no idea what is going on in T's base. If he builds banshees you just plain die. If he chooses to expand, you had better hope that you can kill him with your speedlings or that you can take a third quickly.
3) Attempt to blind counter, and either die if you guessed wrong or win if you guessed right.
4) Attempt to take the initiative early with builds like 7RR or baneling bust and force your opponent to show you his hand (or possibly just kill him if he's going 2-port banshee). Trouble is, if he's playing standard he'll show you his hand, you won't like it, and he'll have more SCV's than you have drones and you will die slowly rather than dying quickly.
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Or just sacrifice an overlord to determine his tech path like a normal human being.
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On February 24 2011 10:49 CapnAmerica wrote:
Or just sacrifice an overlord to determine his tech path like a normal human being.
The problem is this is inconsistent at best. :/
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Yeah I have a lot of trouble with this as well. Once I get overlord speed I am fine, but sacrificing overlords often tells you very little against a competent player. I wish they would just make overlord speed a tier 1 upgrade at like 50/50. I don't see how that would really hurt the game except actually give zerg a way to react to these early cheeses.
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On February 24 2011 10:49 CapnAmerica wrote:
Or just sacrifice an overlord to determine his tech path like a normal human being.
Before or after overlord speed?
The problem is that if you do it before you see nothing, and if you do it after, then you're either getting the information too late (if you delayed your tech to overlord speed at all), or you just fucking die to an all-in which you had no way to scout (if you tech straight to overlord speed).
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On February 24 2011 10:49 CapnAmerica wrote:
Or just sacrifice an overlord to determine his tech path like a normal human being.
Sacrificing overlords before they get the speed upgrade does not work when your opponent is aware of it. All you need is placement of supply depots or pylons of your base's perimeter and you constantly checking the minimap for the perimeter around your base. Then you proceed to shoot down the overlord with marines or stalkers before they even get close to seeing your tech.
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It's kinda funny. Reapers are useless to Terrans because they can just scan for intel. But a reaper-like unit would be immensely useful to zerg to provide early scouting.
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On February 24 2011 11:08 r888888888 wrote:
It's kinda funny. Reapers are useless to Terrans because they can just scan for intel. But a reaper-like unit would be immensely useful to zerg to provide early scouting.
Dont hate terrans, scan is just easier and spontaneous more than implementing a reaper in your build. Low terrans use scan, but higher terrans use reapers effectively
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Honestly... you'll get your info with a slow overlord... either he doesn't kill it in time because he only has 2 or 3 rines, or he brings an assload of rines over which reveals his excess number of barracks.
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On February 24 2011 11:23 SeeDLiNg wrote:
Honestly... you'll get your info with a slow overlord... either he doesn't kill it in time because he only has 2 or 3 rines, or he brings an assload of rines over which reveals his excess number of barracks.
Pretty much this.
Zerg early game scouting is an extremely sensitive matter, sure. But this should not force you to either go cheese, blind counter or fast lair just for speed without the economy to really benefit from the tech.
If you don't feel like you get the information with a slow overlord, bring two from different directions. That's a lot cheaper than the speed tech and it makes sure you get the info you need. Because as SeeDLiNg said, everything that gets brought to kill your overlord is already information. Fast tech/expo - few marines; many marines - threat of an early push.
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You can basically guess what they are gonna do often. Both gases? Gonna be some sort of tech play off 1 base, 2 rax? Gonna be bunker rush, no raxes? Gonna be proxy rax bunker rush.
Mass ling will kill basically every single unit comp terren can do(outside of really heavy hellion play or on maps where the geometry is terrible for ling), get at least 4 or 5 queens to stop that silly banshee stuff if he is really just sitting on one base forever.
Get the spire, but there is no reason to actually start making the mutas before his 1 base push is coming, because mutas are terrible in a real fight.
And scouting with overlord simply doesn't work, he spreads marines all around and can easily kill it with 2-3 marines before it sees anything.
But of course the very fact he's doing this shows you it's gonna be something all in off 1 base.
And if he has expanded, then at this point you should have mutas and speed overlords to be able to scout with and know exactly what he is doing, Not that it really matters anyways because ling bling muta is fairly flexible.
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On February 24 2011 11:47 Flyingpants wrote:
Mass ling will kill basically every single unit comp terren can do(outside of really heavy hellion play or on maps where the geometry is terrible for ling), get at least 4 or 5 queens to stop that silly banshee stuff if he is really just sitting on one base forever.
Mass ling does in fact do quite well against everything but banshee, if you know to make it. (Of course, if you make mass ling, and he's just playing standard, you have too few drones and are way behind on eco.)
I'm talking about very fast banshee -- where they stick a few marines behind a wall and rush headlong for the things. It is easily counterable if scouted by making extra queens and spores, but you can't scout it. If they don't scout it a baneling bust will do a lot of damage, but the point is that they can scout and (at least at the crucial timing) you can't, so you're stuck making all those extra queens as a blind counter.
And if he has expanded, then at this point you should have mutas and speed overlords to be able to scout with and know exactly what he is doing, Not that it really matters anyways because ling bling muta is fairly flexible.
Indeed -- once into the stage of the game where Terran has taken an expansion, we're no longer in the scouting timing hole I refer to, since Zerg has time to get speed overlords and see what Terran is up to, plus Terran has to show at least some of his cards when you poke into his expansion.
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Gotta love seeing a wall with two barracks and a factory. Wonder what they are going?  I generally try to suicide an OL as efficiently as possible, a lot of the time it fails seeing nothing significantly however.
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You take in a lot more than you think when you scout.
If you sacrifice an overlord, you more likely than not can see exactly what he is doing. Go straight for the gas geysers, how many do you see? Ok, then based on that, what could he be doing?
Sacrifice a few lings at the front, does the terran have a bunker? That might mean what? teching by chance? Chronoboost on the warp gates, perhaps a 4 gate?
In addition, build extra queens from your hatcheries. You should do this anyway for better defense, massive creep spread and better mid game army. This is not only helpful to your economy, but blind counters pheonix and void ray harass.
If all else fails, and you don't want to use money for overlord speed, just make 1 overseer and get a changeling in his base to scout. Overseers also move quickly like upgraded overlords.
You can't just move command an overlord into his base and hope it spots the proxy stargate. You have to look at the gas, and actually use your brain to figure out possibly builds from him, and do the appropriate response. If you cannot do that, then figure out a new way to it.
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On February 24 2011 11:23 SeeDLiNg wrote:
Honestly... you'll get your info with a slow overlord... either he doesn't kill it in time because he only has 2 or 3 rines, or he brings an assload of rines over which reveals his excess number of barracks.
Or, he'll be a good player and will bring just 4 or 5 marines to come kill the overlord before it moves into range of any important structure in his base. Probably the only map that an OL sac actually makes sense is Xel Naga, and that's only if they don't have a sharp eye on the perimeter of their base.
Zerg have to base a LOT of the decisions they make based on feelings such as "well, he hasn't attacked yet, so maybe he's going to drop or go banshees, better get my lair started" or "I see a tech lab building on that one barracks, better put up a spine and make a roach warren in case I need to defend against hellions."
That's not to say Terran or Toss REALLY have it any easier... Terrans are adverse to using their first 50 energy on a scan due to the economic damage it does to their early game, and toss have to rush out an observer or hallucination to get any meaningful info out of a competent zerg. As a zerg player, I don't find it particularly difficult to deny early game scouting from terran and toss with 4-6 speedlings ready to chase down scouting probes and scvs.
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I'm a Plat T player. At my level at least, I rarely see Zerg players even attempt to scout me during this "window" after my wall-off is finished (my wall consisting of depot/rax/fact). Therefore, I win most of my games with an early marine/hellion harass into double port banshees that hit before mutas typically arrive.
Honestly i'm not even sure its fair. If I watch my base I can easily kill an overlord before it gets within range of any of my buildings. Furthermore, this build is not even all in - if the Zerg player has enough queens/spores to survive the banshees, the Terren player can easily transition into a mid-game MMM force, usually at an advantage after the damage the banshees have done. It just seems unfair for Zerg players to have to play against this type of thing that is so difficult to scout/prepare for and will kill them instantly if not prepared and, if stopped, simply lets the T player transition into a viable midgame build at a possible advantage.
I've never really understood why Zerg players (again, at least in the Plat division) don't make more queens in general. They are cheap, spread creep, and are reasonably good for defense (especially in the early game), shoot air, and you don't even have to waste larva making them. But then, I'm only a Platinum Terren player so what do I know?
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I have encountered what bowser has mentioned many times and I think it is so discouraging to see how easily a terran can bounce back even after failed harrass and how much success they can have if they kill some drones. The worst is when you get hit by hellions first then cloaked banshees and marines and tanks attack at the same time. I think the best response is to just have at least 4 maybe 5 queens as standard. Even if they don't hit you with hellions and banshees the queens can spread creep and when you have new expos you can just transfer them there, you would be making them anyways.
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Honestly, I haven't been having much trouble with what they could be doing in this window because, as other people have stated already, queen/speedling with an overseer scout is good against all of the possible things they could be doing behind that wall.
Extra barracks? Queens help transfuse spines and tank damage while your lings eat them up.
Hellion harass? That extra queen or two blocks your ramp and prevents them from getting up it while your expo queen chases them away or your lings surround them.
Two-Port Banshee? Obviously queens keep them at bay
Cloaked Banshee? You're overseer scouting, so you have detection already.
Tank drop on Lost Temple? What, you expect to beat a Terran on LT?
In addition, extra queens spread creep, which should help you react in a timely fashion. Overlords at medivac/banshee paths, creep out the front to see when those hellions are coming in.
So while I agree that there is a timing window where scouting their tech is difficult, it doesn't matter because you're safe if you're making queens. They don't even cost gas OR larva, so its not even limiting you on your strategy that much. You're still free to get fast upgrades, drop play, nydus, spire, infestor, burrowed roaches, or whatever.
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if its off of 1 base for terran, you prepare for everything
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On February 24 2011 12:35 bowser wrote:
I'm a Plat T player. At my level at least, I rarely see Zerg players even attempt to scout me during this "window" after my wall-off is finished (my wall consisting of depot/rax/fact). Therefore, I win most of my games with an early marine/hellion harass into double port banshees that hit before mutas typically arrive.
Honestly i'm not even sure its fair. If I watch my base I can easily kill an overlord before it gets within range of any of my buildings. Furthermore, this build is not even all in - if the Zerg player has enough queens/spores to survive the banshees, the Terren player can easily transition into a mid-game MMM force, usually at an advantage after the damage the banshees have done. It just seems unfair for Zerg players to have to play against this type of thing that is so difficult to scout/prepare for and will kill them instantly if not prepared and, if stopped, simply lets the T player transition into a viable midgame build at a possible advantage.
This is pretty much my experience (and have lost to exactly this sort of thing). You have to make lings against the marines/hellions, and you have no way of telling whether more hellions are coming (against which you will either need a shitload of lings or roaches/spines) or whether it's headed to 2-port banshee, or a transition into ordinary mech play.
And, as you say, it's not all-in at all. Even if the zerg has enough spores/queens to take no damage from the banshees, the banshees do so much dps to ground (3x that of a muta at double the range) that they'll just hang around and shoot lings for the rest of the game during engagements, while making the zerg paranoid about detection.
I've never really understood why Zerg players (again, at least in the Plat division) don't make more queens in general. They are cheap, spread creep, and are reasonably good for defense (especially in the early game), shoot air, and you don't even have to waste larva making them. But then, I'm only a Platinum Terren player so what do I know?
The trouble with making all those queens is that they can only be in one place at once. It takes 6-7 queens to protect 2 bases from 4 banshees, and they can still scoot around and explode things, since queens only outrange them by 1, and if a queen gets isolated they can kill her very quickly.
Queens are awesome. But they don't shoot air well enough (or are mobile enough) to blow up banshees on their own. They'll keep you alive until mutas come out, but that's about it.
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I've never really understood why Zerg players (again, at least in the Plat division) don't make more queens in general. They are cheap, spread creep, and are reasonably good for defense (especially in the early game), shoot air, and you don't even have to waste larva making them. But then, I'm only a Platinum Terren player so what do I know?
Early game we really struggle for minerals and the queen is still a 150 2 food investment. I do agree that in many cases it's still the better option than simply making 4-5 spore crawlers around your 2 hatcheries.
The real issue with 2-port is the cloaking I guess. When I have to deal with MM/Hellion pushes my response will immediately be to mass roaches and/or sling/bling depending on the map and enemy's army comp. Lair is the least of my worries when I know the next push could easily be my last if I don't make enough ground units.
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Random here.
I always go 14hatch-16pool in each matchup with zerg. I used to get my gas at 18, but now I usually delay it even further, if I can get away with it, usually til 28, and then get double immediately. I also usually get 4 queens before I do anything else with my 1st 2 hatches.
Creep gives more speed bonus than metabolic boost, so defensively you can get away it, and offensively it's only a pair of lings for scouting anyway.
The 2 main things that let me get away with it on my level is that I make it a point to exactly know what I do with my 1st 4-5 overlords on each map, and defensive building placement.
The reason I started with the Overlord focus from the very beginning is, that I wanted to use nydus a lot. I still use nydus a lot, because the good overlord placement/usage lets you spot blind spots easily. But the overall scouting it provides is helping so much. I never really had the feeling of playing blind as zerg. I feel much more so with the other races.
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On February 24 2011 12:35 bowser wrote:
I've never really understood why Zerg players (again, at least in the Plat division) don't make more queens in general. They are cheap, spread creep, and are reasonably good for defense (especially in the early game), shoot air, and you don't even have to waste larva making them. But then, I'm only a Platinum Terren player so what do I know?
making Queens is a good idea but you can't afford them when you are powering drones. Even with using tumors on initial energy (first 2 queens) I am still able to spend all of my minerals with my larva (on drones and ovie). Spending the money might be worth it (as the meta evolves and strats pop up) but atm it feels like there is too much risk for the reward.
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On March 24 2011 18:31 ixi.genocide wrote:
making Queens is a good idea but you can't afford them when you are powering drones.
Queens are an investment into economy. So I don't really see the conflict. My first two queens,that pop at the same time do plant a tumor each first, unless I really need zerglings.
Because you are right, at the start, you can't really use all the larva. But the 4 queens allow you to only make 2 zerlings for scouting, and then only if you really really need more. And then make lots of drones later.
4 Queens, 1-2 spines, 2 evo chambers in strategic places and drones is all the early game defense you need, unless your oppend does an All-in. And he won't be able to keep up with economy.
Evos are meatshield and funnel into the spines/protect ramps and allow quick spores if needed. Also allow you to upgrade hard for later.
Queens transfuse, serve as bait and AA and deal good ground damage too for early game. Drones give more dps and surround if needed or opportune.
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Don't you think that a zerg is actually in not such a bad position regarding early scouting compared to other races playing against you?
I play protoss and I have to play in dark against zerg till the obs/halu is out. So I have to make a decision do I want to fast expand in dark (with some cannons/sentrys to be safe) or 1 base push into expand after I scout with obs.
I cant even scout the front ... as every unit I send can be picked up just after leaving my base as zerg has vision of almost the whole map ... I can try to hide my scouting probe but zerlings are running around in circles to prevent proxy pylons anyway ... And zerlings are insanely cost efficient against low number of gateway units... Zerg can all-in as well, If I don’t spot the baneling bust or roach allin greedy 3 gate sentry expo (ex. nexus before first warpin) will fall.
The same story for terran. Scant costs almost the same as 3 ovies, reaper is a bit better but he can be picked up before he spots anything.
Maybe try to learn expanding safe with early lair of evo chamber with some units.
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I wouldn't mind having overlord speed at hatch level so zergs get an early choice between speed for lings or speed for ovies.
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I'm sorry, it sounds like you're complaining that when you play very greedy with your economy, sometimes you get punished by cheese and early aggression specifically designed to stop you from getting an early eccon advantage.
If you only build 4 lings + queens in the first 5 minutes and you die to a barracks/scv all-in, clearly 4 lings isn't sufficient to hold that off. Get more units, get more queens, get detection at your bases to coincide with cloak timing. Evo chambers also let you get a fast +1 carapace which is good late game. You will have less drones but you won't die to cheese and you will have other late game advantages, like more upgrades and better creep spread.
If your build is greedy and relies on scouting, you could die if that scout is denied or if your enemy feeds you false information. That's why it's called a 'strategy' game.
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a lot of the time subtle things can give you as much information as getting in their base and seeing everything. you should nearly always be able to see whether they've taken one gas or two with your first overlord, if it comes in behind the mineral line they can't really kill it in time. also if they've walled in barracks, you can scout the add-on, a reactor will tell you marine/hellion push, tech lab could be alot of things. but sacking an overlord at around the 5 minute mark i find is a good timing to have a sneaky peak at terrans or protoss' tech path.
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I was having some major problems with scouting in that period, losing a lot of games, and after taking a hard look at my opening, I found that the situation wasn't as bad as I originally thought. Sure I still can't scout, but you can be ready for the things that you aren't able to scout, and you can narrow down some of the possibilities usually and be okay.
First thing I did was my creep was not getting out in time. This lack of creep caused me to lose to hellions a lot. Lings off creep, even with speed they just lose in droves, but on creep, they are pretty comparable to blue flame hellions. They just get the surround more often, just barely enough to lower that critical mass of hellions such that queens and spines can deal with them til you have a more permanent solution (mutas or roaches).
As a little extra against hellion, a third queen is really good to have. If I suspect hellions, I plant her on the ramp, the creep gives me enough warning to pull drones back over her until I can deal with them.
As for marine/marauder pushes, etc, I haven't been losing to those at all. I always sack an overlord around 5:30 or so and 90% of the time it sees something. It just seems like I always see something. Now with stim being delayed, these sorts of rushes should not be killing you. If you see a barracks at the front with a techlab with your lings, that also suggests a bio ball, with at best, hellions to back it up. Or my overlord sees a starport or a factory with a tech lab, which means bio is unlikely. Also again, that creep makes such a monstrous difference in combat, so if you have it you're probably going to have enough to win.
As for banshees, about 50% of the time I'm able to scout this coming out with my sac overlord. But I've got 3 queens, and my bases are long since linked by creep, so early banshees just don't work. If I've ruled out bio, I'll put down an evo just in case, and make sure I have a couple lings outside their base to see the banshees the moment they move out. The moment I see them, spore in each mineral, a couple extra queens. It just ends up not being a problem.
I've also found that if they are going a tech route with marines spread around their base to deny scouting, you can usually get them to give it away by throwing 20 lings at their ramp and they will react by showing their tech, usually a banshee or hellion because they have nothing else to stop this with. This is something you have to get a feel for, and I don't do it often, but it has saved me games.
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A little off topic but i like the really late gas zvt builds that have been popping up recently. Really late lair etc. You compensate for this by getting an evo for the spores if you need them, and getting extra queens. Should look into it ive been beating a lot of 2 rax and fast tech stuff with these kinds of builds(mine arent very refined)
I think losira has been doing this in the gsl an i know i saw this in day 1 of the tsl
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Having the option to sac an overlord is better than the gaping hole between the probe scout and the first observer as Protoss, and heaven forbid you try and go straight to templar tech.
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I'm sorry, it sounds like you're complaining that when you play very greedy with your economy, sometimes you get punished by cheese and early aggression specifically designed to stop you from getting an early eccon advantage.
When a zerg FE's or Speedling Expands he's actually catching up to Protoss and Terran even if they don't do an excessively eco-oriented build. Due to the whole MULE/Chrono/Losing 1 drone per building design. Yes, later on our economy soars if allowed to drone up but it's definitely after the scouting gap of time where tech choices are usually made.
P.S. Lalush made a nice post on how Protoss and Terran economies evolve in respect to their eco mechanics. Unfortunately I can't find it to link here for reference I would greatly appreciate it.
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i see an additional problem in the size of the maps, e.g. the new tal'darim map is very large - it takes the 1st ovi around 3 to 3,5 ingame minutes to get to the closest neighbor base, cross position will take even longer - so if you want to sac and ovi at the 5min you have to be lucky to send your ovi the right direction. the next problem would be the huge bases with a lot of space to hide/spread tech...its only getting harder and harder 
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On March 25 2011 02:21 eighteen8 wrote:i see an additional problem in the size of the maps, e.g. the new tal'darim map is very large - it takes the 1st ovi around 3 to 3,5 ingame minutes to get to the closest neighbor base, cross position will take even longer - so if you want to sac and ovi at the 5min you have to be lucky to send your ovi the right direction. the next problem would be the huge bases with a lot of space to hide/spread tech...its only getting harder and harder
Guess you can fix this by early drone scouting and adjust your ovie's flight paths in time.
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I noticed there are scouting/information gathering problem in SC2
But how did BW players handled this?
was there no ramp?
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On March 25 2011 02:29 AngryZerg wrote:
I noticed there are scouting/information gathering problem in SC2
But how did BW players handled this?
was there no ramp?
There were a lot less "oh you didn't scout in the last 1-2 minutes, now you lose" pushes
for terran, scans were essentially free, so they had near-on maphacks for knowing what was going on, P needed observers for lurkers anyways, so always had enough to scout around.
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On March 25 2011 01:56 Negative Zero wrote:
Having the option to sac an overlord is better than the gaping hole between the probe scout and the first observer as Protoss, and heaven forbid you try and go straight to templar tech.
Stargates typically come out much faster than spires, and hallucinate usually comes much faster than OL speed due to the Lair requirement.
Observers are just icing. Not to mention that a terran walling off is basically giving away a few buildings to a void ray.
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How do you guys fight the Hellion + Marine pressure?
I have some trouble with this because if I rush the lings, they are burn by the hellions, if I don't, they get too close and the marines focus my queens/spine, so I find it very hard to deal with, except if I have roaches...
//tx
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Protoss has the same issue.
We have to poke at your army to draw out your forces....and with our lack of mobility, if our FF's aren't perfect, we can get swarmed by zerglings and it's gg.
We can research hallucinate, which is also 100 gas like Lair, in order to get pheonix to scout.
Otherwise, we have to tech stargate, robo or just muscle our way in with a substantial warpgate army so that we don't get overrun when we move away from our base.
Terran is just as bad. And since their default army unit is the Marine, we are forced to go robo for observers just to get scouting info. 225/175 is not worth a single observer.
My point is that just because zerg has a hole in their scouting ability; it doesn't mean that other races don't have holes either. Even terran has to sacrifice a mule drop in order to get a scan out.
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You got to scout the front with a ling or 2 and then sac the ovi for a fly by. Most of the time he will focus on what is at his doorstep long enough to have your ovi get some sort of information. The lost of the ovi and ling pair is worth determining the tech path you need to go.
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Odd that some people claim sacrificing overlords for scouting isn't effective. When someone sacrifices overlords into my base they almost always scout exactly what I'm doing.
I guess I need to work on my pylon and building spread ):
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As Zerg, you have two ways to scout. One is zerglings and other is overlord.
With lings, you will able to scout the front of Terran's base. You will search for the following when you scout the front base.
- Do they have tech lab on a barrack?
- The number of marines / marauders
- Is there any factory.
You will sac overlord to scout the area of the base where you weren't able to scout with lings. Ideally, you will be searching for these informations.
- How many refinery are there?
- Is there any factory?
- If yes, is there any tech lab making?
- Is there any star port?
- How many marines are trying to kill off your overlord?
Even if you get denied to gain all the possible info, you can still eliminate few possible tech paths that Terran may throw at you. Keep in mind that you will still be guessing your opponent's tech path, but you raised the possibility of your correctness of guess because you scouted.
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There already have been threads on this and people always say the same things. I would like you to accept once and for all that:
slow overlords or lings at the front do not give you any intel if they don't want you to get it. They can show 4 marines to the overlord, take it down long before it reaches where they have their tech, and all you know is that he made at least 4 marines.
overseers do not come in time to prepare for anything. Rushing for them is an investment that will cause you do die both to an allin and an expand build.
While fake refineries and gas stealing can delay certain builds significantly, if you can't scout that they're going for that build anyway you will still die to it, because different builds require vastly different responses.
You can come up with increasingly expensive methods like saccing 2 ovies and 6 lings at once and hope to get lucky, but the point is that, unlike the other races, zerg does not have a cookie-cutter build that can both provide reliable scouting and be in OK shape against whatever has been scouted.
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Honestly, Zerg needs more [viable] scouting options that what it currently has..
Overlords without speed are worthless. Ling scouting doesn't do anything against a decent opponent who walls and then hides tech. Overseers/Speedy overlords both cost too much of an investment.
Whereas Terran has a horrendously large number of scouting options, and Protoss has observers.
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haha funny in reality only the protoss has such a timing, terran can build a scouting raks(kind of better then a scan) and zerg has flying supply depots. Also toss is the worst to denie scouting while zerg is the easiest, they doesn't even need to wall in hehe.
So yeah imo zerg has the easiest way to scout after the worker dies, atleast i never had troubles scouting as a zerg. 100 minerals and a larva psh ^^ terran pays way more and toss can't even do that.
Also a terran always risks to get this extra mule and plays blind for a little longer, zerg can do the same (or just fast tech to lair for an overseer, so your spines are up and your queens saved energy before his push hits)
lots of ways to play, but the pro zergs play super risky in the early game so if you copy them you will play super risky as well hehe. (IF you have to play that super risky early game is not for me to decide, i playd super save as zerg and had no probs with that, but then again my opponents are as far away from pro level then i am hehe)
PS: where is the fun if you know what your opponent is doing all of the time, because you don't have to pay anything for scouting. And scouting is damn easy in sc2 for every race, except toss they were super good in bw already hehe so no need to improve
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Well, I'd say you need to know timings. At what time is X, Y, or Z a threat? A decent thing to do is have 3 queens asap, and while the 3rd is building morph your other hatch into a lair. meanwhile, spread olord around the map and edges, while having lings at towers, outside the base, and maybe on patrol in certain areas, such that you have a minimap perimeter, and keep an eye on it for any movement and try to see what unit is moving through your arc of vision. Also, try scouting with a slow olord around the edges, just within marine range, to see if you can get any intel about his base.
The 3 queens are quite nice for holding off banshees or vrays, and maybe a few spines at your natural and/or lings/bling vs t, ling roach vs toss. Against protoss, a suicide slow olord can still gather a decent amount of intel, against terran, not as much, but still some. And any time you plan to suicide, be sure to have another olord in transit to be nearby once the first one dies. Generally, you'll be fine against anything before you have lair tech, and always have a ling posted outside their ramp to see any pushes, and if you do throw up a spine or two, and make pure units, all the while injecting like a pro, and you should be fine.
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You can gain plenty of info by poking front and scout with slow ovi just by know the type of units he uses to deny entry and how many there are and by poking up the rap it will see what is immediately there, which will most likely be bnukner/depot/1-2 production buildings.
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Constantly poking their front with zerglings, sac an OL and 35-40...checking their unit composition, checking/stealing 2ed gass...
All these things are usually enough to tell experienced players what they need to know.
If you feel rly in the dark, i feel like getting an extra queen/s can help enough.
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On February 24 2011 11:40 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 11:23 SeeDLiNg wrote:
Honestly... you'll get your info with a slow overlord... either he doesn't kill it in time because he only has 2 or 3 rines, or he brings an assload of rines over which reveals his excess number of barracks. Pretty much this. Zerg early game scouting is an extremely sensitive matter, sure. But this should not force you to either go cheese, blind counter or fast lair just for speed without the economy to really benefit from the tech. If you don't feel like you get the information with a slow overlord, bring two from different directions. That's a lot cheaper than the speed tech and it makes sure you get the info you need. Because as SeeDLiNg said, everything that gets brought to kill your overlord is already information. Fast tech/expo - few marines; many marines - threat of an early push.
5 marines take less than 5 seconds to douse an overlord. 5 marines is 250 minerals, 6-7 are spread at the perimeter to the point where you're lucky to maybe see 1 building and MAYBE an addon. Sucks that I only scout the stupid terrans.
oh and on macro maps? zerg gotta scout at 7-8 if they don't wanna risk running into a wall-off, and also so they can get their OL to sack in time of 5-6 minutes.
it's a joke really, i'd gladly have OL speed at hatch tech. hell i'd delay my speedling to get that.
medium maps like metalopolis and close air positions are alright because you clearly get to see what he has before it's even built, it's just a shame with a competative game your scouting information is based on chance.
perfect example i'll keep simply just for ZvT, steal gas, doesn't get killed till later because showing many marines shows an active 2rax, if you're lucky you'll get your OL to get killed by 5-6 marines by 6 minutes depending on the map and spawn and you see a fac with a reactor.
if he's junk you have within the time it takes for blue flame to research to get a roach warren out if he does a decent marine/BFH push.
if he's researching you're guessing between seige and blueflame.
if he's no researching he might have starport and addon switch.
granted he can't do all of this at once, but it's ridiculous how it's almost like PvP where you'll lose half of the time just because you built the wrong unit.
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Anyone has a refined late gas multi queen build?
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I think the ZvT scouting complaints are a little excessive - it's true that you don't have perfect information if the Terran is 1-basing with a wall, but it's not as bad as you make it seem.
1. If you know the Terran is 1-basing, you know to expect early aggression - for me, this means make more than 2 queens (anywhere from 3 - 6): more Queens = fail banshees = fail hellions = really good creep spread. So more queens eliminates 2 of the things (hellions + banshees) that 1-basing Terrans can do to you. Plus, if you confirm a factory, skip lings and get roaches; they own hellions and also let you pound on the T's wall once the hellion harass is finished. Get a bling nest just in case he goes for an MMM all-in; the investment of getting a bling nest is nothing compared to the economic loss the T faces when his push fails. Once you survive the harass/push, you're way ahead in econ because you're on 2 bases and the Terran is on 1, and you're probably ready to take a third without any opposition.
2. The other things that 1-basing Terrans can do to you are marine/SCV all-ins and marine/marauder all-ins; these are harder to beat back, but good scouting and good micro wins you the game. Just keep lings at the watch towers + outside of enemy base to scout for when he moves out; when he does move out with MMM, slap down crawlers, get your 4+ queens to your natural, and start pumping lings/blings/roaches (blings are ideal, but roaches/lings also work with good surrounds/micro, which should be easy since your creep spread is so good). Queens absorb an obscene amount of damage (175 hp + 1 armor), giving your lings/blings/roaches time to surround and obliterate the MMM. It's actually quite funny to see how effective queens are when mixed with standard ling/bling mixes; they tank so much damage.
3. Slow overlords and ling scouts are better than people are making them sound - only if T hides his buildings really well and conceals his tech/units will you be completely in the dark. If you are completely in the dark, as discussed before, just make more queens, sit back, and watch for his push to start outside of his base.
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On March 25 2011 08:07 skypig wrote:
I think the ZvT scouting complaints are a little excessive - it's true that you don't have perfect information if the Terran is 1-basing with a wall, but it's not as bad as you make it seem.
1. If you know the Terran is 1-basing, you know to expect early aggression - for me, this means make more than 2 queens (anywhere from 3 - 6): more Queens = fail banshees = fail hellions = really good creep spread. So more queens eliminates 2 of the things (hellions + banshees) that 1-basing Terrans can do to you. Plus, if you confirm a factory, skip lings and get roaches; they own hellions and also let you pound on the T's wall once the hellion harass is finished. Get a bling nest just in case he goes for an MMM all-in; the investment of getting a bling nest is nothing compared to the economic loss the T faces when his push fails. Once you survive the harass/push, you're way ahead in econ because you're on 2 bases and the Terran is on 1, and you're probably ready to take a third without any opposition.
2. The other things that 1-basing Terrans can do to you are marine/SCV all-ins and marine/marauder all-ins; these are harder to beat back, but good scouting and good micro wins you the game. Just keep lings at the watch towers + outside of enemy base to scout for when he moves out; when he does move out with MMM, slap down crawlers, get your 4+ queens to your natural, and start pumping lings/blings/roaches (blings are ideal, but roaches/lings also work with good surrounds/micro, which should be easy since your creep spread is so good). Queens absorb an obscene amount of damage (175 hp + 1 armor), giving your lings/blings/roaches time to surround and obliterate the MMM. It's actually quite funny to see how effective queens are when mixed with standard ling/bling mixes; they tank so much damage.
3. Slow overlords and ling scouts are better than people are making them sound - only if T hides his buildings really well and conceals his tech/units will you be completely in the dark. If you are completely in the dark, as discussed before, just make more queens, sit back, and watch for his push to start outside of his base.
Why'd you bump this again ? Someone give this guy a warnning!
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Does anyone know that with Protoss if you take like 3 drones and click on their mineral patch in the main while you distract hime with a small force you can get the drones in since they will walk through the zealot. The use amazing micro skills to look for hidden tech.
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On March 25 2011 09:21 Nytmre wrote:
Does anyone know that with Protoss if you take like 3 drones and click on their mineral patch in the main while you distract hime with a small force you can get the drones in since they will walk through the zealot. The use amazing micro skills to look for hidden tech.
or just take 1, and sac an overlord because by the time his 1 stalker kills your overlord your drone could have done 20 laps around his base.
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It's a bit depressing that so many people say "just sac an overlord" thinking that this does the trick. Now, below diamond it actually does work quite well I reckon, but decent players hide their tech in the least likely place for an overlord to reach as well as have at least 1 marine patrolling the area that the ovie can come from. The odds of actually seeing anything is usually too low for it to be worth it.
Then there is the issue of actually getting your overlord safely to a spot next to opponents base in time. This is very dependant on spawn locations. F ex, against Terran: (assuming you're playing at a level where terran will in fact go overlord hunting. And you pretty much lose if your first ovie gets killed as a 2rax rush is moving out, f ex if you try to get ovie into position on metalopolis).
Meta: 33% chance of getting an overlord into position. (close by air)
Shattered: 33% chance (close by air)
Scrap: 100%
Delta Quad: 80% (takes some time to get crossmap, but will get there in time for some stuff)
Xel naga: 0%
Tal'darim: 33%
Typhon Peaks: 33% (though you can get one behind the natural after that, but cant be sacced that way, just look for expo)
Backwater: havent played this much, but I think its 33%
Slag pits: 33%
My personal preference would be a 50 energy spell on the queen to summon a small fast scourge-like creature for a limited time, that basically works like an hallucinated pheonix. Either that, or increase the base speed of overlords, or make ovie speed a 100/50 on hatch tech...
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I hope people aren't assuming that Observers are tier 1 and that Scans are free, because once they realize that they'd see that Terran and Protoss have to scout with less options than zerg does.
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scans and observers and hallucinations and reapers are not free but you can get them in time to scout what you need to scout and be safe against whatever you scout. zerg does not have the option to sacrifice economy for safety, if not by blind countering something and being vulnerable against something else.
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Orbital Commands are so ridiculously overpowered, I never want to hear a Terran gripe about either option. They can choose, every 50 energy, either a super-powered supply-less harvester or an instant, large-area, detecting scout anywhere on the map.
Observers and Overseers are roughly the same unit, as both are slow (with upgradeable speed) flying detectors that take some teching to get to. One is permacloaked and supplants spectacular war options while it's building, the other morphs from a readily available stock, costs 125|25 more, and maintains supply levels. They're roughly equal, but the permacloak means observers stay alive a whole lot more than overseers do.
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On March 26 2011 01:06 Wren wrote:
Orbital Commands are so ridiculously overpowered, I never want to hear a Terran gripe about either option. They can choose, every 50 energy, either a super-powered supply-less harvester or an instant, large-area, detecting scout anywhere on the map.
Observers and Overseers are roughly the same unit, as both are slow (with upgradeable speed) flying detectors that take some teching to get to. One is permacloaked and supplants spectacular war options while it's building, the other morphs from a readily available stock, costs 125|25 more, and maintains supply levels. They're roughly equal, but the permacloak means observers stay alive a whole lot more than overseers do.
Not OP at all, if a protoss is going 4gate and puts 2gates on one side of the base and 2 on the other, terran can't see all four with a scan, so you just wasted 300 minerals, Mules don't magically get you ahead in econ of zerg or protoss (assuming protoss uses say half the chrono boost on probes), Mules keep you even.
On topic though, if zerg can sac two overlords (early in the game), one from each side of the base, then they will almost certainly find out what terran/ toss is doing. While you may say that is 200 minerals wasted, consider the fact that a scan is 300.
Scans are not free, you need the energy on the OC for mules, otherwise you will behind in economy if both terran and zerg/protoss opponent is playing standard.
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EPT
