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In ZvT or ZvP, there is a significant scouting timing hole where you are unable to get meaningful information about my opponent's composition or tech path, after the walloff is complete but before overlord speed (or overseer morph) finishes.
There are a lot of issues that this causes, but a single example suffices: a terran player could either have a wad of bio or have 2-port banshees building behind that wall (among other nasty things). Scouting the front can be deceptive -- a player who's going to surprise you with a bio/SCV all-in may only show a handful of marines at the front. You have no way of knowing which it is until too late.
It seems like that as zerg you have several options, none of them terribly palatable:
1) Rush to overlord speed, spending your second hundred gas on lair, and starting overlord speed immediately after. This will get you the earliest possible scout, but you may not see terribly much before you lose the overlord. If you get unlucky and happen to miss a building starport, you just plain die to banshees. Also, this very fast tech means you just plain die to marine/scv all-in; your first warning that this is coming is when your forward zergling sees it. If you have devoted all of your resources to getting an early scout you will just plain die to this, since one round of zerglings is not enough extra help. (A crawler won't finish in time.)
2) Build a sizeable speedling force at tier 1. This keeps you safe from early aggression, but hurts your economy. You gain map control, but you still have no idea what is going on in T's base. If he builds banshees you just plain die. If he chooses to expand, you had better hope that you can kill him with your speedlings or that you can take a third quickly.
3) Attempt to blind counter, and either die if you guessed wrong or win if you guessed right.
4) Attempt to take the initiative early with builds like 7RR or baneling bust and force your opponent to show you his hand (or possibly just kill him if he's going 2-port banshee). Trouble is, if he's playing standard he'll show you his hand, you won't like it, and he'll have more SCV's than you have drones and you will die slowly rather than dying quickly.
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Or just sacrifice an overlord to determine his tech path like a normal human being.
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On February 24 2011 10:49 CapnAmerica wrote:
Or just sacrifice an overlord to determine his tech path like a normal human being.
The problem is this is inconsistent at best. :/
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Yeah I have a lot of trouble with this as well. Once I get overlord speed I am fine, but sacrificing overlords often tells you very little against a competent player. I wish they would just make overlord speed a tier 1 upgrade at like 50/50. I don't see how that would really hurt the game except actually give zerg a way to react to these early cheeses.
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On February 24 2011 10:49 CapnAmerica wrote:
Or just sacrifice an overlord to determine his tech path like a normal human being.
Before or after overlord speed?
The problem is that if you do it before you see nothing, and if you do it after, then you're either getting the information too late (if you delayed your tech to overlord speed at all), or you just fucking die to an all-in which you had no way to scout (if you tech straight to overlord speed).
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On February 24 2011 10:49 CapnAmerica wrote:
Or just sacrifice an overlord to determine his tech path like a normal human being.
Sacrificing overlords before they get the speed upgrade does not work when your opponent is aware of it. All you need is placement of supply depots or pylons of your base's perimeter and you constantly checking the minimap for the perimeter around your base. Then you proceed to shoot down the overlord with marines or stalkers before they even get close to seeing your tech.
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It's kinda funny. Reapers are useless to Terrans because they can just scan for intel. But a reaper-like unit would be immensely useful to zerg to provide early scouting.
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On February 24 2011 11:08 r888888888 wrote:
It's kinda funny. Reapers are useless to Terrans because they can just scan for intel. But a reaper-like unit would be immensely useful to zerg to provide early scouting.
Dont hate terrans, scan is just easier and spontaneous more than implementing a reaper in your build. Low terrans use scan, but higher terrans use reapers effectively
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Honestly... you'll get your info with a slow overlord... either he doesn't kill it in time because he only has 2 or 3 rines, or he brings an assload of rines over which reveals his excess number of barracks.
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On February 24 2011 11:23 SeeDLiNg wrote:
Honestly... you'll get your info with a slow overlord... either he doesn't kill it in time because he only has 2 or 3 rines, or he brings an assload of rines over which reveals his excess number of barracks.
Pretty much this.
Zerg early game scouting is an extremely sensitive matter, sure. But this should not force you to either go cheese, blind counter or fast lair just for speed without the economy to really benefit from the tech.
If you don't feel like you get the information with a slow overlord, bring two from different directions. That's a lot cheaper than the speed tech and it makes sure you get the info you need. Because as SeeDLiNg said, everything that gets brought to kill your overlord is already information. Fast tech/expo - few marines; many marines - threat of an early push.
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You can basically guess what they are gonna do often. Both gases? Gonna be some sort of tech play off 1 base, 2 rax? Gonna be bunker rush, no raxes? Gonna be proxy rax bunker rush.
Mass ling will kill basically every single unit comp terren can do(outside of really heavy hellion play or on maps where the geometry is terrible for ling), get at least 4 or 5 queens to stop that silly banshee stuff if he is really just sitting on one base forever.
Get the spire, but there is no reason to actually start making the mutas before his 1 base push is coming, because mutas are terrible in a real fight.
And scouting with overlord simply doesn't work, he spreads marines all around and can easily kill it with 2-3 marines before it sees anything.
But of course the very fact he's doing this shows you it's gonna be something all in off 1 base.
And if he has expanded, then at this point you should have mutas and speed overlords to be able to scout with and know exactly what he is doing, Not that it really matters anyways because ling bling muta is fairly flexible.
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On February 24 2011 11:47 Flyingpants wrote:
Mass ling will kill basically every single unit comp terren can do(outside of really heavy hellion play or on maps where the geometry is terrible for ling), get at least 4 or 5 queens to stop that silly banshee stuff if he is really just sitting on one base forever.
Mass ling does in fact do quite well against everything but banshee, if you know to make it. (Of course, if you make mass ling, and he's just playing standard, you have too few drones and are way behind on eco.)
I'm talking about very fast banshee -- where they stick a few marines behind a wall and rush headlong for the things. It is easily counterable if scouted by making extra queens and spores, but you can't scout it. If they don't scout it a baneling bust will do a lot of damage, but the point is that they can scout and (at least at the crucial timing) you can't, so you're stuck making all those extra queens as a blind counter.
And if he has expanded, then at this point you should have mutas and speed overlords to be able to scout with and know exactly what he is doing, Not that it really matters anyways because ling bling muta is fairly flexible.
Indeed -- once into the stage of the game where Terran has taken an expansion, we're no longer in the scouting timing hole I refer to, since Zerg has time to get speed overlords and see what Terran is up to, plus Terran has to show at least some of his cards when you poke into his expansion.
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Gotta love seeing a wall with two barracks and a factory. Wonder what they are going?  I generally try to suicide an OL as efficiently as possible, a lot of the time it fails seeing nothing significantly however.
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You take in a lot more than you think when you scout.
If you sacrifice an overlord, you more likely than not can see exactly what he is doing. Go straight for the gas geysers, how many do you see? Ok, then based on that, what could he be doing?
Sacrifice a few lings at the front, does the terran have a bunker? That might mean what? teching by chance? Chronoboost on the warp gates, perhaps a 4 gate?
In addition, build extra queens from your hatcheries. You should do this anyway for better defense, massive creep spread and better mid game army. This is not only helpful to your economy, but blind counters pheonix and void ray harass.
If all else fails, and you don't want to use money for overlord speed, just make 1 overseer and get a changeling in his base to scout. Overseers also move quickly like upgraded overlords.
You can't just move command an overlord into his base and hope it spots the proxy stargate. You have to look at the gas, and actually use your brain to figure out possibly builds from him, and do the appropriate response. If you cannot do that, then figure out a new way to it.
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On February 24 2011 11:23 SeeDLiNg wrote:
Honestly... you'll get your info with a slow overlord... either he doesn't kill it in time because he only has 2 or 3 rines, or he brings an assload of rines over which reveals his excess number of barracks.
Or, he'll be a good player and will bring just 4 or 5 marines to come kill the overlord before it moves into range of any important structure in his base. Probably the only map that an OL sac actually makes sense is Xel Naga, and that's only if they don't have a sharp eye on the perimeter of their base.
Zerg have to base a LOT of the decisions they make based on feelings such as "well, he hasn't attacked yet, so maybe he's going to drop or go banshees, better get my lair started" or "I see a tech lab building on that one barracks, better put up a spine and make a roach warren in case I need to defend against hellions."
That's not to say Terran or Toss REALLY have it any easier... Terrans are adverse to using their first 50 energy on a scan due to the economic damage it does to their early game, and toss have to rush out an observer or hallucination to get any meaningful info out of a competent zerg. As a zerg player, I don't find it particularly difficult to deny early game scouting from terran and toss with 4-6 speedlings ready to chase down scouting probes and scvs.
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I'm a Plat T player. At my level at least, I rarely see Zerg players even attempt to scout me during this "window" after my wall-off is finished (my wall consisting of depot/rax/fact). Therefore, I win most of my games with an early marine/hellion harass into double port banshees that hit before mutas typically arrive.
Honestly i'm not even sure its fair. If I watch my base I can easily kill an overlord before it gets within range of any of my buildings. Furthermore, this build is not even all in - if the Zerg player has enough queens/spores to survive the banshees, the Terren player can easily transition into a mid-game MMM force, usually at an advantage after the damage the banshees have done. It just seems unfair for Zerg players to have to play against this type of thing that is so difficult to scout/prepare for and will kill them instantly if not prepared and, if stopped, simply lets the T player transition into a viable midgame build at a possible advantage.
I've never really understood why Zerg players (again, at least in the Plat division) don't make more queens in general. They are cheap, spread creep, and are reasonably good for defense (especially in the early game), shoot air, and you don't even have to waste larva making them. But then, I'm only a Platinum Terren player so what do I know?
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I have encountered what bowser has mentioned many times and I think it is so discouraging to see how easily a terran can bounce back even after failed harrass and how much success they can have if they kill some drones. The worst is when you get hit by hellions first then cloaked banshees and marines and tanks attack at the same time. I think the best response is to just have at least 4 maybe 5 queens as standard. Even if they don't hit you with hellions and banshees the queens can spread creep and when you have new expos you can just transfer them there, you would be making them anyways.
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Honestly, I haven't been having much trouble with what they could be doing in this window because, as other people have stated already, queen/speedling with an overseer scout is good against all of the possible things they could be doing behind that wall.
Extra barracks? Queens help transfuse spines and tank damage while your lings eat them up.
Hellion harass? That extra queen or two blocks your ramp and prevents them from getting up it while your expo queen chases them away or your lings surround them.
Two-Port Banshee? Obviously queens keep them at bay
Cloaked Banshee? You're overseer scouting, so you have detection already.
Tank drop on Lost Temple? What, you expect to beat a Terran on LT?
In addition, extra queens spread creep, which should help you react in a timely fashion. Overlords at medivac/banshee paths, creep out the front to see when those hellions are coming in.
So while I agree that there is a timing window where scouting their tech is difficult, it doesn't matter because you're safe if you're making queens. They don't even cost gas OR larva, so its not even limiting you on your strategy that much. You're still free to get fast upgrades, drop play, nydus, spire, infestor, burrowed roaches, or whatever.
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if its off of 1 base for terran, you prepare for everything
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On February 24 2011 12:35 bowser wrote:
I'm a Plat T player. At my level at least, I rarely see Zerg players even attempt to scout me during this "window" after my wall-off is finished (my wall consisting of depot/rax/fact). Therefore, I win most of my games with an early marine/hellion harass into double port banshees that hit before mutas typically arrive.
Honestly i'm not even sure its fair. If I watch my base I can easily kill an overlord before it gets within range of any of my buildings. Furthermore, this build is not even all in - if the Zerg player has enough queens/spores to survive the banshees, the Terren player can easily transition into a mid-game MMM force, usually at an advantage after the damage the banshees have done. It just seems unfair for Zerg players to have to play against this type of thing that is so difficult to scout/prepare for and will kill them instantly if not prepared and, if stopped, simply lets the T player transition into a viable midgame build at a possible advantage.
This is pretty much my experience (and have lost to exactly this sort of thing). You have to make lings against the marines/hellions, and you have no way of telling whether more hellions are coming (against which you will either need a shitload of lings or roaches/spines) or whether it's headed to 2-port banshee, or a transition into ordinary mech play.
And, as you say, it's not all-in at all. Even if the zerg has enough spores/queens to take no damage from the banshees, the banshees do so much dps to ground (3x that of a muta at double the range) that they'll just hang around and shoot lings for the rest of the game during engagements, while making the zerg paranoid about detection.
I've never really understood why Zerg players (again, at least in the Plat division) don't make more queens in general. They are cheap, spread creep, and are reasonably good for defense (especially in the early game), shoot air, and you don't even have to waste larva making them. But then, I'm only a Platinum Terren player so what do I know?
The trouble with making all those queens is that they can only be in one place at once. It takes 6-7 queens to protect 2 bases from 4 banshees, and they can still scoot around and explode things, since queens only outrange them by 1, and if a queen gets isolated they can kill her very quickly.
Queens are awesome. But they don't shoot air well enough (or are mobile enough) to blow up banshees on their own. They'll keep you alive until mutas come out, but that's about it.
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EPT
