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I've never really understood why Zerg players (again, at least in the Plat division) don't make more queens in general. They are cheap, spread creep, and are reasonably good for defense (especially in the early game), shoot air, and you don't even have to waste larva making them. But then, I'm only a Platinum Terren player so what do I know?
Early game we really struggle for minerals and the queen is still a 150 2 food investment. I do agree that in many cases it's still the better option than simply making 4-5 spore crawlers around your 2 hatcheries.
The real issue with 2-port is the cloaking I guess. When I have to deal with MM/Hellion pushes my response will immediately be to mass roaches and/or sling/bling depending on the map and enemy's army comp. Lair is the least of my worries when I know the next push could easily be my last if I don't make enough ground units.
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Random here.
I always go 14hatch-16pool in each matchup with zerg. I used to get my gas at 18, but now I usually delay it even further, if I can get away with it, usually til 28, and then get double immediately. I also usually get 4 queens before I do anything else with my 1st 2 hatches.
Creep gives more speed bonus than metabolic boost, so defensively you can get away it, and offensively it's only a pair of lings for scouting anyway.
The 2 main things that let me get away with it on my level is that I make it a point to exactly know what I do with my 1st 4-5 overlords on each map, and defensive building placement.
The reason I started with the Overlord focus from the very beginning is, that I wanted to use nydus a lot. I still use nydus a lot, because the good overlord placement/usage lets you spot blind spots easily. But the overall scouting it provides is helping so much. I never really had the feeling of playing blind as zerg. I feel much more so with the other races.
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On February 24 2011 12:35 bowser wrote:
I've never really understood why Zerg players (again, at least in the Plat division) don't make more queens in general. They are cheap, spread creep, and are reasonably good for defense (especially in the early game), shoot air, and you don't even have to waste larva making them. But then, I'm only a Platinum Terren player so what do I know?
making Queens is a good idea but you can't afford them when you are powering drones. Even with using tumors on initial energy (first 2 queens) I am still able to spend all of my minerals with my larva (on drones and ovie). Spending the money might be worth it (as the meta evolves and strats pop up) but atm it feels like there is too much risk for the reward.
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On March 24 2011 18:31 ixi.genocide wrote:
making Queens is a good idea but you can't afford them when you are powering drones.
Queens are an investment into economy. So I don't really see the conflict. My first two queens,that pop at the same time do plant a tumor each first, unless I really need zerglings.
Because you are right, at the start, you can't really use all the larva. But the 4 queens allow you to only make 2 zerlings for scouting, and then only if you really really need more. And then make lots of drones later.
4 Queens, 1-2 spines, 2 evo chambers in strategic places and drones is all the early game defense you need, unless your oppend does an All-in. And he won't be able to keep up with economy.
Evos are meatshield and funnel into the spines/protect ramps and allow quick spores if needed. Also allow you to upgrade hard for later.
Queens transfuse, serve as bait and AA and deal good ground damage too for early game. Drones give more dps and surround if needed or opportune.
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Don't you think that a zerg is actually in not such a bad position regarding early scouting compared to other races playing against you?
I play protoss and I have to play in dark against zerg till the obs/halu is out. So I have to make a decision do I want to fast expand in dark (with some cannons/sentrys to be safe) or 1 base push into expand after I scout with obs.
I cant even scout the front ... as every unit I send can be picked up just after leaving my base as zerg has vision of almost the whole map ... I can try to hide my scouting probe but zerlings are running around in circles to prevent proxy pylons anyway ... And zerlings are insanely cost efficient against low number of gateway units... Zerg can all-in as well, If I don’t spot the baneling bust or roach allin greedy 3 gate sentry expo (ex. nexus before first warpin) will fall.
The same story for terran. Scant costs almost the same as 3 ovies, reaper is a bit better but he can be picked up before he spots anything.
Maybe try to learn expanding safe with early lair of evo chamber with some units.
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I wouldn't mind having overlord speed at hatch level so zergs get an early choice between speed for lings or speed for ovies.
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I'm sorry, it sounds like you're complaining that when you play very greedy with your economy, sometimes you get punished by cheese and early aggression specifically designed to stop you from getting an early eccon advantage.
If you only build 4 lings + queens in the first 5 minutes and you die to a barracks/scv all-in, clearly 4 lings isn't sufficient to hold that off. Get more units, get more queens, get detection at your bases to coincide with cloak timing. Evo chambers also let you get a fast +1 carapace which is good late game. You will have less drones but you won't die to cheese and you will have other late game advantages, like more upgrades and better creep spread.
If your build is greedy and relies on scouting, you could die if that scout is denied or if your enemy feeds you false information. That's why it's called a 'strategy' game.
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a lot of the time subtle things can give you as much information as getting in their base and seeing everything. you should nearly always be able to see whether they've taken one gas or two with your first overlord, if it comes in behind the mineral line they can't really kill it in time. also if they've walled in barracks, you can scout the add-on, a reactor will tell you marine/hellion push, tech lab could be alot of things. but sacking an overlord at around the 5 minute mark i find is a good timing to have a sneaky peak at terrans or protoss' tech path.
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I was having some major problems with scouting in that period, losing a lot of games, and after taking a hard look at my opening, I found that the situation wasn't as bad as I originally thought. Sure I still can't scout, but you can be ready for the things that you aren't able to scout, and you can narrow down some of the possibilities usually and be okay.
First thing I did was my creep was not getting out in time. This lack of creep caused me to lose to hellions a lot. Lings off creep, even with speed they just lose in droves, but on creep, they are pretty comparable to blue flame hellions. They just get the surround more often, just barely enough to lower that critical mass of hellions such that queens and spines can deal with them til you have a more permanent solution (mutas or roaches).
As a little extra against hellion, a third queen is really good to have. If I suspect hellions, I plant her on the ramp, the creep gives me enough warning to pull drones back over her until I can deal with them.
As for marine/marauder pushes, etc, I haven't been losing to those at all. I always sack an overlord around 5:30 or so and 90% of the time it sees something. It just seems like I always see something. Now with stim being delayed, these sorts of rushes should not be killing you. If you see a barracks at the front with a techlab with your lings, that also suggests a bio ball, with at best, hellions to back it up. Or my overlord sees a starport or a factory with a tech lab, which means bio is unlikely. Also again, that creep makes such a monstrous difference in combat, so if you have it you're probably going to have enough to win.
As for banshees, about 50% of the time I'm able to scout this coming out with my sac overlord. But I've got 3 queens, and my bases are long since linked by creep, so early banshees just don't work. If I've ruled out bio, I'll put down an evo just in case, and make sure I have a couple lings outside their base to see the banshees the moment they move out. The moment I see them, spore in each mineral, a couple extra queens. It just ends up not being a problem.
I've also found that if they are going a tech route with marines spread around their base to deny scouting, you can usually get them to give it away by throwing 20 lings at their ramp and they will react by showing their tech, usually a banshee or hellion because they have nothing else to stop this with. This is something you have to get a feel for, and I don't do it often, but it has saved me games.
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A little off topic but i like the really late gas zvt builds that have been popping up recently. Really late lair etc. You compensate for this by getting an evo for the spores if you need them, and getting extra queens. Should look into it ive been beating a lot of 2 rax and fast tech stuff with these kinds of builds(mine arent very refined)
I think losira has been doing this in the gsl an i know i saw this in day 1 of the tsl
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Having the option to sac an overlord is better than the gaping hole between the probe scout and the first observer as Protoss, and heaven forbid you try and go straight to templar tech.
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I'm sorry, it sounds like you're complaining that when you play very greedy with your economy, sometimes you get punished by cheese and early aggression specifically designed to stop you from getting an early eccon advantage.
When a zerg FE's or Speedling Expands he's actually catching up to Protoss and Terran even if they don't do an excessively eco-oriented build. Due to the whole MULE/Chrono/Losing 1 drone per building design. Yes, later on our economy soars if allowed to drone up but it's definitely after the scouting gap of time where tech choices are usually made.
P.S. Lalush made a nice post on how Protoss and Terran economies evolve in respect to their eco mechanics. Unfortunately I can't find it to link here for reference I would greatly appreciate it.
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i see an additional problem in the size of the maps, e.g. the new tal'darim map is very large - it takes the 1st ovi around 3 to 3,5 ingame minutes to get to the closest neighbor base, cross position will take even longer - so if you want to sac and ovi at the 5min you have to be lucky to send your ovi the right direction. the next problem would be the huge bases with a lot of space to hide/spread tech...its only getting harder and harder 
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On March 25 2011 02:21 eighteen8 wrote:i see an additional problem in the size of the maps, e.g. the new tal'darim map is very large - it takes the 1st ovi around 3 to 3,5 ingame minutes to get to the closest neighbor base, cross position will take even longer - so if you want to sac and ovi at the 5min you have to be lucky to send your ovi the right direction. the next problem would be the huge bases with a lot of space to hide/spread tech...its only getting harder and harder
Guess you can fix this by early drone scouting and adjust your ovie's flight paths in time.
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I noticed there are scouting/information gathering problem in SC2
But how did BW players handled this?
was there no ramp?
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On March 25 2011 02:29 AngryZerg wrote:
I noticed there are scouting/information gathering problem in SC2
But how did BW players handled this?
was there no ramp?
There were a lot less "oh you didn't scout in the last 1-2 minutes, now you lose" pushes
for terran, scans were essentially free, so they had near-on maphacks for knowing what was going on, P needed observers for lurkers anyways, so always had enough to scout around.
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On March 25 2011 01:56 Negative Zero wrote:
Having the option to sac an overlord is better than the gaping hole between the probe scout and the first observer as Protoss, and heaven forbid you try and go straight to templar tech.
Stargates typically come out much faster than spires, and hallucinate usually comes much faster than OL speed due to the Lair requirement.
Observers are just icing. Not to mention that a terran walling off is basically giving away a few buildings to a void ray.
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How do you guys fight the Hellion + Marine pressure?
I have some trouble with this because if I rush the lings, they are burn by the hellions, if I don't, they get too close and the marines focus my queens/spine, so I find it very hard to deal with, except if I have roaches...
//tx
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Protoss has the same issue.
We have to poke at your army to draw out your forces....and with our lack of mobility, if our FF's aren't perfect, we can get swarmed by zerglings and it's gg.
We can research hallucinate, which is also 100 gas like Lair, in order to get pheonix to scout.
Otherwise, we have to tech stargate, robo or just muscle our way in with a substantial warpgate army so that we don't get overrun when we move away from our base.
Terran is just as bad. And since their default army unit is the Marine, we are forced to go robo for observers just to get scouting info. 225/175 is not worth a single observer.
My point is that just because zerg has a hole in their scouting ability; it doesn't mean that other races don't have holes either. Even terran has to sacrifice a mule drop in order to get a scan out.
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EPT
