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I'm surprised there's not a thread about this, at least none that I could find.
I've made a table with all the units/upgrades build/research times modified by chronoboosting (CB).
Here it is:
Excel table.
I've compared the results with what we see on the game. It seems consistent. I'm quite confident on its veracity.
However, I've thought the math by myself, and since I'm not particulary good at it, I'd like you guys to check it out and see if it holds.
Also, take into account that english is not my native language so I may not express my self clearly enough, unfortunately.
If you don't mind about the math, just jump to the Conclusions&Important Timings.
Introduction
+ Show Spoiler +As you know, every CB puts the building into an "accelerated state" in which it'll build/upgrade 50% faster for 20 seconds (those 20 seconds are "game seconds", and can be counted by the sc2 time counter).
In normal circumstances, a building builds/researches at a speed of 1 (30 seconds to complete a 30 "production units" unit/research).
The acceleration factor (50%) tells us that, during a CB's duration, the speed at which it builds/reseaches is 1.5 (20 seconds to complete a 30 "production units" unit/research).
That of "production units" is confusing. This is what I mean:
If you leave your mouse cursor over a construction bar, you'll see as your chrono that the speed at which the numbers go up increases. So the building is doing more "production units" by game second.
Why the math?
+ Show Spoiler +
I didn't mean to make this a "math postulate". I'm just expaining how I get the numbers in case:
a) You're curious and you really care.
b) Something MIGHT be wrong because nobody is perfect. In that case, more talented people can review it and I'll fix it.
In you don't care about the math, just skip all that and go to the juicy parts: conclusions and numbers.
Chrono Boost Reduction
+ Show Spoiler +
You can deduce, or do enough experiments, to get this formula.
Cr= Cd*Cf-Cd= Cd(Cf-1)
Where:
Cr= Chrono Reduction. Save of time in seconds caused by one CB.
Cd= Chrono duration (20 secs).
Cf= Chrono factor (1.5).
Computing the numbers you get:
CR= 10 seconds.
So: one Chrono Boost == you save up 10 seconds.
General Build Time formula
+ Show Spoiler +
If you apply more than one CB, then of course you get linear results:
Two chronos= 20 seconds.
Three chronos = 30 seconds.
And so on.
So the general formula to get a Bt modified by CB is:
Bt'=Bt-N*Cr
where N is the number of chronos applied.
Minimum Build Time
+ Show Spoiler +If you apply continuous CB (one after another) is like you have accelerated time by 1.5. So the fastest BT' you can get is BT/1.5.
Which is 50% faster. This is the limit.
Number of continuous CB needed
+ Show Spoiler +
To get the maximum number of CB, you just solve the equation for N using BTmin.
BTmin=Bt/1.5=Bt-N*Cr
CB and Nexus energy
+ Show Spoiler +
We'd like get a formula that can tell us how many continuous CB (one Chrono every 20 secs) can we get from a Nexus.
This can also be used to, for example, know much energy is needed to CB Warpgate research.
That formula is (contribution of Jaeger, thanks):
Nc*Ec=Nn[Ei+ Rg* Dc*( Nc-1)]
where:
Nc= Amount of continuous CB we can get.
Nn= Amount of Nexi.
Ei= Initial Energy of Nexi.
And we solve for Nc or Ei, whichever we want to get.
We can get interesting results from this. More on conclusions.
CB and shields!
+ Show Spoiler +
I accidently found out this thing. Don't know if it's wide known but I haven't heard of this anywhere.
The fact: CB accelerates the speed at which shields recharge by 50% too!
I've tested this on a Nexus, testing how much it takes to replenish its shields without and with continuous CB on the Nexus.
Normally, when the building is no longer being attacked, shields recharge a constant rate of 2 SHP per second.
With CCB, I've found that they recharge faster, at a rate of 3SHP/sec.
You can see the results inside the Excel chart.
Conclusions & Important Timings
+ Show Spoiler +*First conclusion: One Chrono Boost == you save up 10 game seconds.*Second conclusion: CB is linear. The more you chrono, the more you save up and always with the same proportion. *Third conclusion: You can get something up to 50% faster using CB. No more. This is the limit. Note that 50% faster DOESN'T mean that it takes half of the time. It takes 66% of the original time to build (or 33% less time). *Fourth conclusion: Buildings shields recharge 50% faster when CB! Test it yourself  Assuming continuous CB: Colossus*BT'= 50 (you save 25 seconds). *CB needed= 3. Inmortal*BT'= 37 (you save 18 seconds). *CB needed= 2. Void Ray*BT'= 40 (you save 20 seconds). *CB needed= 2. Warp Gate research*BT'= 93 (you save 47 seconds). *CB needed= 5. +1 Ground Weapons Research*BT'=107 (you save 53 seconds). *CB needed= 5. CB and Nexus-Empty Nexi (Ei=0). You can get 1 CB every 45 seconds. If you have more than you Nexus, then time is split. Example: 2 Nexi, then 1 CB every 22.5 secs, which is almost enough to get continuous CB. -Full Nexi (Ei=100). You can continuously CB 6 times (waiting a little you'll have 7). For instance, that's more than enough to fully CB Warpgate research (only need 5 CB). More data on the Excel spreadsheet.
That's it guys. Please let me know what do you think. Open for suggestions.
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Good, simple post. I think the main misconception people have is that they think that Cboost helps production by 100%, when its actually 50%. I know I did, lol.
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Thanks for this post helpful insight with math and etc is always appreciated.
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Ty, math was never my strong subject xD
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I wouldnt call it simple unless you have some sort of math Ph.D. - imo its really complicated way to "explain" quite simple thing.
But whatever, some ppl might like, but you are missing one thing:
Nexus regenerate 25 ene in roughly 45 sec (45*0,5625= ~25), so using energy from single nexus you can boost something by 50% for 20 seconds every 45 sec, so one nexus is capable of boosting something by 22% in total using constant chrono boost (50%*20/45) if no energy was saved.
This means that when you have only one Nexus and with no energy saved, if you start CB something you can reduce build/research time to ~82% of original.
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Should add that since chrono boost requires 25 energy and lasts 20 seconds and a Nexus regenerates energy at 0.5625 energy per second having 2 nexus almost allow you to chrono one building constantly.
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good stuff, and holy shiot...saving 25 sec on collosus is pretty insane...-_-
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Very useful information here, nice work, i was trying to find something like this. Thx.
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My common misconception was that chrono boosted things by 20% for 50 seconds :')
Obviously I know it doesn't but sometimes I think this for some reason!
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Excellent info to anyone who isn't as nerdy as me and actually crunched this out!
I really didn't think about posting it. You are a superior human, Volka.
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Osaka27150 Posts
Moved to strategy, and also put into the spotlight.
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Good idea to put it all in a single simple post. These are all basic facts that everyone should know about chronoboost, but sadly a lot of people don't.
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On February 23 2011 09:42 Sek-Kuar wrote:
I wouldnt call it simple unless you have some sort of math Ph.D. - imo its really complicated way to "explain" quite simple thing.
But whatever, some ppl might like, but you are missing one thing:
Nexus regenerate 25 ene in roughly 45 sec (45*0,5625= ~25), so using energy from single nexus you can boost something by 50% for 20 seconds every 45 sec, so one nexus is capable of boosting something by 22% in total using constant chrono boost (50%*20/45) if no energy was saved.
This means that when you have only one Nexus and with no energy saved, if you start CB something you can reduce build/research time to ~82% of original.
I appreciate the OP but... You really dont need a math Ph.D. for this :S
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Great post - nice and simple.
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Osaka27150 Posts
This is a good chance for someone to ease into liquipedia too.
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On February 23 2011 09:26 GenesisX wrote:Good, simple post. I think the main misconception people have is that they think that Cboost helps production by 100%, when its actually 50%. I know I did, lol.
Yup. And also that P can't get anything 50% faster, just 33%. That is, constantly using saved chronoboost, they can only have 13 units instead of 10, or in other words, have those 10 units 33% of the time to produce them earlier. At this light now, doesn't seem that good at all when comparing to what mules can do
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On February 23 2011 10:40 Manifesto7 wrote:
This is a good chance for someone to ease into liquipedia too.
I think mani needs help.. He's got spotlight fever!
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Hrm, you should add this to liquipedia
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no offense, but you kind posted the same formula like 5 times.
i mean you said chrono boost divides speed by 1.5
and then you pointed out 1-(1/1.5)=.33333
and then you posted like 5 variations of this formula and applied it to a few units.
not really impressive.
you just used variables and then said what they are for, and ended up just stating what is already known.
((20*(1.5-1))=10, You need to divide the build time by 20 to find out how many times you should use something that takes 20 seconds.)
But hey, you made it look impressive enough to get spotlighted, so congrats! 
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On February 23 2011 09:42 Sek-Kuar wrote:
I wouldnt call it simple unless you have some sort of math Ph.D. - imo its really complicated way to "explain" quite simple thing.
But whatever, some ppl might like, but you are missing one thing:
Nexus regenerate 25 ene in roughly 45 sec (45*0,5625= ~25), so using energy from single nexus you can boost something by 50% for 20 seconds every 45 sec, so one nexus is capable of boosting something by 22% in total using constant chrono boost (50%*20/45) if no energy was saved.
This means that when you have only one Nexus and with no energy saved, if you start CB something you can reduce build/research time to ~82% of original.
I definitely think the OP (which is already good) could be enhanced by factoring in "N" number nexuses and their respective energy regeneration rates. It would take this otherwise abstract information and place it into a more practical scenario.
Taken even one step further, one could conceivably apply this to specific early build orders and by factoring together the OP, Build Times, Mining Times, and Energy Regen rates, create some sort of Chronoboost optimization program or guide. As of now a lot of high level players figure this out via trial and error as well as intuition. But having a formal mathematical template to experiment on with the only subjective limit being APM could be a very beneficial tool for Protoss Players of all skill levels.
This is a good start.
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On February 23 2011 10:38 Jombozeus wrote:On February 23 2011 09:42 Sek-Kuar wrote:I wouldnt call it simple unless you have some sort of math Ph.D. - imo its really complicated way to "explain" quite simple thing. + Show Spoiler +
But whatever, some ppl might like, but you are missing one thing:
Nexus regenerate 25 ene in roughly 45 sec (45*0,5625= ~25), so using energy from single nexus you can boost something by 50% for 20 seconds every 45 sec, so one nexus is capable of boosting something by 22% in total using constant chrono boost (50%*20/45) if no energy was saved.
This means that when you have only one Nexus and with no energy saved, if you start CB something you can reduce build/research time to ~82% of original.
I appreciate the OP but... You really dont need a math Ph.D. for this :S
soooo true LOL!!! u prolly just need to ummm
a) know to read and
b) use excel...
but well, thanks a lot for the info, this is very useful indeed, specially for those who thought chrono boost lasted for nearly a minute
Hope someone takes his time to add this into liquipedia too
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So if someone knows is it better to chrono boost all at once say in late game if I forget to use 200 energy. So if I wanted like 2/2 upgrades. Just mass cb the forge.
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This is a really good post, mainly because it's easy to understand as opposed to some other mathematical theorycrafting threads I've read. Thank you OP.
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Oh whoops
This whole time I had assumed that chrono'ing warpgate research made it research in half the time ><
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Vancouver14381 Posts
There's some good information here, but I would just like to point out that the warpgate cooldown is different for the various gateway units (Liquidpedia). If you could update your excel with the other numbers, I feel that it would be more complete Maybe something like - zealot, core units, and templar units.
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Thanks for the concrete numbers in the conclusion section. I never knew exactly how many I could use for maximum efficiency.
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Sound reasoning although the variables and 'equations' makes this seem more complicated than it really is I wish I could get N*CB to the second power for my amulet reasearch lol, that shit takes so long even with continuous CB
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On February 23 2011 11:06 Naicella wrote:
So if someone knows is it better to chrono boost all at once say in late game if I forget to use 200 energy. So if I wanted like 2/2 upgrades. Just mass cb the forge.
Like Psionic Storm, Chrono Boost doesn't stack. You'd be wasting any boosting you do to a structure that is already being boosted. Wait 20 seconds for it to wear off, then boost it again. Also, I LOVE that you can boost a Phoenix once and it's 25 seconds to build. Actually, probably about 22 or 23 if you chain boost the Stargate.
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Calgary25981 Posts
Really amazing thread. Even if you just skip to the conclusions, knowing how many times to perfectly chronoboost something efficiency is a really important piece of knowledge to have.
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Definitely a 'core' post that should probably make it's way to the Liquipedia if it hasn't already.
Also, English may not be your native language but your grammar, spelling and word compositions are spot on. Better than 90% of the 'native speakers' around.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Well it certanly cleared up any misunderstandings of the chronoboost i might have had, and that makes it a great post.
But I can't see a practical use for it. In a game when I am chronoboosting something, the last thing I want to think about is how many times I have to chronoboost and by how much seconds it will speed things up, because thats kinda worthless knowledge to me. Its much simpler to just get the timing in my head and do a chronoboost every 20 game seconds on w/e I want to chronoboost. I simply cant afford to waste any mental resourses on extra numbers.
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On February 23 2011 14:55 Tsabo wrote:
Well it certanly cleared up any misunderstandings of the chronoboost i might have had, and that makes it a great post.
But I can't see a practical use for it. In a game when I am chronoboosting something, the last thing I want to think about is how many times I have to chronoboost and by how much seconds it will speed things up, because thats kinda worthless knowledge to me. Its much simpler to just get the timing in my head and do a chronoboost every 20 game seconds on w/e I want to chronoboost. I simply cant afford to waste any mental resourses on extra numbers.
I believe the point of this post is so you DON'T have to think about it, the math is all done for you, obviously this knowledge wont change the game much as most players already have the timings down, as you said. Nevertheless I don't play protoss, but I can see this as being very helpful for some people, way to go OP!
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Katowice25012 Posts
Thanks for the thread. I'm pretty sure I've never used 3 chronos on a colossus, this is really just highlighting how bad I am at the game  .
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Very imformative post. Especially useful is the last statement where you point out the number of chrono boosts you need per upgrade or unit to be perfectly efficient. With that information I now know that unless I do 3 chrono boosts per colossus I am not doing it perfectly (assuming I have energy to boost constantly).
I know this is a lazy response but any chance you can add that information for a few more units like voidray, phoenix and maybe mothership aswell?
Also what I would be interested in is seeing some kind of math including nexus energy regen and how that influences how much energy I use for certain stuff.
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Pretty nice upload, I had already personally found all those conclusions myself, but nevertheless I think it's important for all the 'basic' stuff to be clarified as to exactly how it works and what affect it has.
Also, there was a thread about how chrono'ing probes affected the economy at different times, it would be nice if there was something like that in this thread. But anyway nice OP.
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factor is 2 = 100% when cbing upgrades
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Haha I am an idiot :>
Did knew that CB saves 10sec each but assumed until now "If it saves 10sec over 20sec it speeds up production to 50% !" not accounting for the resulting shorter build time. How embarrassing.
On February 23 2011 15:33 StarBrift wrote:
I know this is a lazy response but any chance you can add that information for a few more units like voidray, phoenix and maybe mothership aswell?
Also what I would be interested in is seeing some kind of math including nexus energy regen and how that influences how much energy I use for certain stuff.
Voidray: 2 CB (saves 20sec)
Phoenix: 2 CB (saves 11 2/3 sec)
Mothership: 6 CB (saves 53 1/3 sec)
Carrier: 4 CB (saves 40sec)
Thermal Lance: 5 CB (saves 46 2/3 sec)
Psionic Storm + Khaydarin Amulet: 8 CB (saves 73 1/3 sec)
Charge: 5 CB (saves 46 2/3 sec)
Blink: 4 CB (36 2/3 sec)
+1 (any) : 6 CB (saves 53 1/3sec)
+2 (any) : 7 CB (saves 63 1/3sec)
+3 (any) : 8 CB (saves 73 1/3sec)
Nexus generates 0.56 Energy per Ingame Second, therefore 11.2 Energy during one CB, therefore each CB costs 13.8 Energy over 20sec, therefore you can boost one structure 6.68 times in a row before a 100 energy Nexus gets depleted.
2 Nexi generate 22.4 Energy during one CB, so you can almost constantly boost one structure with 2 Nexi during the rest of the game.
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understanding this actually makes seem Chronoboost a pretty weak ability.
The strengh of CB is the reduction in buildtime thus (using ressources faster)
i.e. a Chronoboost on Probes is usually more "worth" it as a chronoboost Upgrades
upgrades get faster 160->150 thats not even 10% faster
while Probes get ofcourse alot faster build (i.e 2 probes take 34s, with CB its 24s)
thats nearly 1/3 reduction.
Same for Chronoboosting units if we take a Warpgate Zealot
takes 28s cooldown
with chronoboost it takes 18,666s
effectivly you would need 3 Chronocycles to make the Macromechanic "worth" an additional Zealot. (for longer buildtimes this gets even worse)
Now compare this to Mules:
1 Mule gets you ~270 thats nearly 2 Gateways/Rax
2 mules are 1 additional Nexus/CC
which boost you production capacity alot faster than chronoboost ever could
and it is ofcourse more forgiving cause it gives you minerals which makes you a hell of more flexible in what you want to spend it too.
This also shows why Protoss is hit hardest by Economic Harass, beeing able to boost production doesn't mean shit if you don't have the income to do that.
weakest Macromechanic (= on Economic side)
just to make a comparison:
a Terran who builds an CC in his base can produces (has the additional mules)
2 SCV in 17s
a Protoss who boosts his Probes gets:
2 Probes in 24s
This also shows how bad CB Scales when the counts of bases get higher.
How often do we see Progamers still having much much energy on their Nexuses during mid/late game.
Conclusion:
Using Chronoboost on things that have small buildtimes more effective than cause the Speedup in % is alot higher, than on slower buildtimes.
We will see Terrans do inbase CCs because of macromechanic
We will see Zergs do inbase Hatches because of macromechanic
We will never see Protoss do inbase Nexuses, because of macromechanic
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 23 2011 17:46 freetgy wrote:
understanding this actually makes seem Chronoboost a pretty weak ability.
The strengh of CB is the reduction in buildtime thus (using ressources faster)
i.e. a Chronoboost on Probes is usually more "worth" it as a chronoboost Upgrades
upgrades get faster 160->150 thats not even 10% faster
while Probes get ofcourse alot faster build (i.e 2 probes take 34s, with CB its 24s)
thats nearly 1/3 reduction.
Same for Chronoboosting units if we take a Warpgate Zealot
takes 28s cooldown
with chronoboost it takes 18,666s
effectivly you would need 3 Chronocycles to make the Macromechanic "worth" an additional Zealot. (for longer buildtimes this gets even worse)
Now compare this to Mules:
1 Mule gets you ~270 thats nearly 2 Gateways/Rax
2 mules are 1 additional Nexus/CC
which boost you production capacity alot faster than chronoboost ever could
and it is ofcourse more forgiving cause it gives you minerals which makes you a hell of more flexible in what you want to spend it too.
This also shows why Protoss is hit hardest by Economic Harass, beeing able to boost production doesn't mean shit if you don't have the income to do that.
weakest Macromechanic (= on Economic side)
just to make a comparison:
a Terran who builds an CC in his base can produces (has the additional mules)
2 SCV in 17s
a Protoss who boosts his Probes gets:
2 Probes in 24s
This also shows how bad CB Scales when the counts of bases get higher.
How often do we see Progamers still having much much energy on their Nexuses during mid/late game.
Conclusion:
Using Chronoboost on things that have small buildtimes more effective than cause the Speedup in % is alot higher, than on slower buildtimes.
We will see Terrans do inbase CCs because of macromechanic
We will see Zergs do inbase Hatches because of macromechanic
We will never see Protoss do inbase Nexuses, because of macromechanic
totally agree. Also late game it is the hardest (imo) to pull off constant chrono like how ALL the casters bitch about. Since it saves you 10 seconds across the board I wonder if i should every chrono gateways ever unless it is a rush. Not a balance whine though as i think protoss is strong.
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On February 23 2011 17:46 freetgy wrote:
[...]
This also shows how bad CB Scales when the counts of bases get higher.
How often do we see Progamers still having much much energy on their Nexuses during mid/late game.
Conclusion:
Using Chronoboost on things that have small buildtimes more effective than cause the Speedup in % is alot higher, than on slower buildtimes.
We will see Terrans do inbase CCs because of macromechanic
We will see Zergs do inbase Hatches because of macromechanic
We will never see Protoss do inbase Nexuses, because of macromechanic
Your conclusion is right. CB rapidly loses Value as Macromechanic during the later Stages of the Game, especially when all your Tech is done and its easier (and affordable) to build another Gate instead of constantly boosting 2 of them to create a virtual 3rd.
But nevertheless it really shines during the early Stages, as you can speed up Tech Research to several key timings (which have yet to be figured out and formulated into Builds) on the one hand and simulate additional Production Structures during key periods of time on the other.
For example, considering an Immortal equal to 2 Stalkers (which is true in Cost/Supply and even better in Terms of DPS(to Ground)/Cost and EHP/Cost) a constantly chronoboosted Robo producing Immortals is almost as good as 2 Gateways constantly producing Stalkers but with an Investment-Substitute of 100 Gas for 100 Minerals and the Opportunity of unlocking Robo-Tech.
This is the basis of the 1Gate/1Robo Opening (Gate-Gas-Core-Robo-Gas), allowing you to get a fast Observer but still be safe in case of early agression by simulating a 3 WG for some time until you actually have 3 WG.
CB is great aswell in FE-Scenarios because you are strapped on Ressources for quite some time until Expo-Probes create Profit but again the additional CB from 2nd Nexus allows to simulate a portion of the deficit of producing Structures you would have had compared to an one Base scenario at that point in Time and due to that lower the opportunity cost of Expo-Nexus even more (in addition to the supply you got at finish).
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Good post, I've often wondered about Chrono Boost. If all it does is get you 10 seconds it really doesn't seem quite as good as larvae inject or mule. This may change in the future, but at the moment I don't think SC2 is nearly as timing intensive as SC1.
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On February 23 2011 18:32 Xanatoss wrote:
Your conclusion is right. CB rapidly loses Value as Macromechanic during the later Stages of the Game, especially when all your Tech is done and its easier (and affordable) to build another Gate instead of constantly boosting 2 of them to create a virtual 3rd.
i disagree with your robo argument a little
One Immortal takes 55s to build
constantly boosting an Immortal would reduce its buildtime: 36s (2 chronoboosts)
2 Immortals would take fully boosted 72s (while taking around 4 Chronoboosts to do so)
now compare that to non boosted 110s, doesn't seem much off a gain (in the long run)
and 4 Chronoboosts take atleast 200s to gather.
And we are disregarding the fact that usually Gas is our limiting ressource which can nullify this advantage.
The reason why 1 Gate Robo can work is especially this, we don't boost the Robo, we boost the Gateway to get fast building units alot faster.
And the reason is, boosting Units with less Buildtime (Zealot/Stalker) is alot more efficient.
Also Gateunits usually are less ressource intensive,, thus making boosting them makes the Min/Gas Usage Ratio alot more balanced.
only advantage beside that is it can create a timing attack (4-WG that is)
Same with Phoenix / Voidrays, boosting Phoenix alot of more efficient (productionswise) than boosting Voidrays.
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Very good post overall, but this part confused me because you are misusing units:In normal circumstances, a building builds/researches at a speed of 1 (30 seconds to complete a 30 "units of time" unit/research).
The acceleration factor (50%) tells us that, during a CB's duration, the speed at which it builds/reseaches is 1.5 (20 seconds to complete a 30 "units of time" unit/research).
That of "units of time" is confusing. This is what I mean:
If you leave your mouse cursor over a construction bar, you'll see as your chrono that the speed at which the numbers go up increases. So the building is doing more "units of time" by game second.
The name of the ability is chronoboost, so you're actually speeding up time locally, but a different view will clear up the section above. If you see it as speeding up time, you get the confusing wording you used above, since the building is doing 1.5 local time units per 1.0 game time unit. Conceptually this is hard to imagine and it's not intuitive to think with.
An easier interpretation is that chronoboost increases the rate of production (i.e. the amount of production units per time unit) from 1.0 to 1.5.You're already touching on that, what you call "units of time" are actually production units. If you change the section to be consistent with the increased production rate interpretation, it would be more comprehensible.
Thx for the informative post nonetheless .
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I thought that this is really simple math and common knowledge for anyone who has actually taken math lessons in school...
It's also not 33% faster, it's 50% faster, 33% is the time you save, i.e. if a car is moving at 100 mph it will travel 100 miles in 1 hour(duh!), if another car is moving 50% faster - at 150 mph, it will take 40 minutes to travel 100 miles, which is 2/3 of an hour or 33% time saved.
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the main problem is that chronoboost basically does nothing and here is why:
they artificially gave protoss a macro mechanic and at the same time raised all units and upgrades building/reseach time to balance it out. the game would not be much different if you just removed chronooboost and removed like 5s for gateway units, 10-20 for robo/stargate units and even more with carrier and mothership. do the same with most of the upgrades. the only real advantage chronoboost is that you can upgrade stuff like +1 faster, because its the same for all races.
i mean just look at some numbers (these are so obvious imo):
tank 45 - immortal 55
thor 60 - collosus 75
battlecruiser 90 - carrier 120
same goes for t1:
marauder 30 - roach 27 - stalker 42 (38 incl 5s warping)
marine 25 - ling 24 - zealot 38 (33 incl 5s warping)
aswell as critical upgades for protoss like charge, collo range, blink, storm+energy all have somewhat higher research times than their "corresponding" upgrades of the other races.
chronoboost does not ADD anyhting to the game, it just smoothens the disadvantages problems of buildtimes protoss have.
imo stuff which would make it definitely more interesting:
- CB on a cannon to let it shoot faster
- CB on constructing buildings to speed it up
- CB on pylons to make warp ins faster
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On February 23 2011 09:42 Sek-Kuar wrote:
I wouldnt call it simple unless you have some sort of math Ph.D. - imo its really complicated way to "explain" quite simple thing.
But whatever, some ppl might like, but you are missing one thing:
Nexus regenerate 25 ene in roughly 45 sec (45*0,5625= ~25), so using energy from single nexus you can boost something by 50% for 20 seconds every 45 sec, so one nexus is capable of boosting something by 22% in total using constant chrono boost (50%*20/45) if no energy was saved.
This means that when you have only one Nexus and with no energy saved, if you start CB something you can reduce build/research time to ~82% of original.
or you know, the basic knowledge of maths a 16 year old has.
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EDIT: Made a slight error in understanding something.
Good post
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If you think about it, 10 seconds saved on production every 25 seconds (gametime) per nexxus is huge. comparable to queen inject imo... 25 energy, extra production...
SWEET now i know i can at least carry SOMETHING over with me if i decide to switch to protoss
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Honestly there are a lot of misconceptions in this topic about efficiency and how the numbers work.
A CB saves you 10 seconds of build time over 20 seconds. If you are building something this is all it saves you per uses. It doesn't becomes more efficient when used on unit A vs unit B. You save the same time per usage.
The max build time reduction is correct with 33.3333% which is based off the math a couple posts up.
Since it is a macro mechanic which many people have trouble with (watch some replays and see by the 20 minute mark how many nexus you have at 100 energy) Add a trigger into your game play.
Something like every time I press 6 or 7 I CB, assuming you use 6 for Robo, and 7 for Stargate or forge or something. This type of trigger will get you 100% efficiency out of your CB due to the energy of your nexi never getting to that 100 mark.
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Grml i made a mistake please delete this post
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Assuming you have a 4 gate build. That you have 4 CB available. Build 4 stalkers. After that you have 0 minerals 0 gas. Then CB the gateways. Can you gather sufficient minerals and gas during that time to build 4 new stalkers at the end of the CB?
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nice! way to put all this info together. I always wondered if there was so cool things you could figure out using chrono.
+ Show Spoiler +also it's spelled 'conclusion' not conclussion (not trying to be insulting you just said english wasn't your first language so I thought you might like to know) cheers!
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Very useful information not widely known, gj OP
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The topic-start can be summarized as:
- CB reduces build/research time by 10 seconds per use assuming no CB time is wasted.
- You can CB a production building without wasting CB time once for every 30 seconds of base production time. Example: Immortal has 55 second base prod. time. You can do a maximum of 1 CB without wasted CB-time. The second CB is almost fully used (25 seconds into the second 30 second period: 5/6th of the CB is used), but some of it is wasted if you don't chain-produce.
- Back-to-back CBing on a single structure with constant production increases the rate of production by that building by 50%. So constant Nexus-CBing gives you 50% more probes than a regular Nexus would produce in the same timeframe.
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On February 24 2011 00:52 neo_rtr wrote:
Assuming you have a 4 gate build. That you have 4 CB available. Build 4 stalkers. After that you have 0 minerals 0 gas. Then CB the gateways. Can you gather sufficient minerals and gas during that time to build 4 new stalkers at the end of the CB?
No. You would need an Income of ~ 1400 Minerals / 550 Gas per Minute, even more if you include Supply Cost. Even 2 Geysiers give around 240 Gas per Minute.
On February 23 2011 19:44 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 18:32 Xanatoss wrote:
Your conclusion is right. CB rapidly loses Value as Macromechanic during the later Stages of the Game, especially when all your Tech is done and its easier (and affordable) to build another Gate instead of constantly boosting 2 of them to create a virtual 3rd.
i disagree with your robo argument a little One Immortal takes 55s to build constantly boosting an Immortal would reduce its buildtime: 36s (2 chronoboosts) 2 Immortals would take fully boosted 72s (while taking around 4 Chronoboosts to do so) now compare that to non boosted 110s, doesn't seem much off a gain (in the long run) and 4 Chronoboosts take atleast 200s to gather. And we are disregarding the fact that usually Gas is our limiting ressource which can nullify this advantage. The reason why 1 Gate Robo can work is especially this, we don't boost the Robo, we boost the Gateway to get fast building units alot faster. And the reason is, boosting Units with less Buildtime (Zealot/Stalker) is alot more efficient. Also Gateunits usually are less ressource intensive,, thus making boosting them makes the Min/Gas Usage Ratio alot more balanced. only advantage beside that is it can create a timing attack (4-WG that is) Same with Phoenix / Voidrays, boosting Phoenix alot of more efficient (productionswise) than boosting Voidrays.
Whats the difference to chronoboosting 110sec worth of Zealots (~4) instead? Answer: Nothing
You save 36sec aswell, you need 4 CB aswell. You could argue with "But I get an additional Zealot during that time!" Yeah, but double the production time and you get another additional Zealot but now aswell an additional Immortal. The Production/Time - Relations between Units stay the same due to Linearity of CB.
The Phrase "Gas is the limiting Factor" does not apply in the Early Game. If that would be the case there would be no openings which Delay the 2nd Geysier, but obviously there are a lot of them.
Of course you can CB the Gate aswell. I have chosen the Stalker/Immortal Example because they are very good to subtitute in the early Stages due to the lack of Air-Units.
If its just about production speed and "efficiency" you would have to build only Zealots because they are super fast built and super cheap. But obviously you dont.
Actualy the increase of Ressources/Time coefficient increases faster for Units that have less Base-Buildtime, if you just boost once each Unit.
And even if you boost more than once, burning more Money with less Infrastructure has not to be a bad thing necessarily.
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If you apply more than one CB, then of course you get linear results:
Two chronos= 20 seconds.
Three chronos = 30 seconds.
And so on.
For a second i thought he was suggesting CB could stack.
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Interesting post, good to know these things
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Canada13389 Posts
The 1/3rd upper limit is interesting and good for new players to learn :D I know I've been working off of this concept for a long long time. thanks for posting :D
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On February 23 2011 10:40 Manifesto7 wrote:
This is a good chance for someone to ease into liquipedia too.
On February 23 2011 10:51 Zips wrote:
Hrm, you should add this to liquipedia
So, as some people suggested, I created a Liquipedia article for this thread. I also included a link in the Chrono Boost page(only waiting to be approved). The article is available at this link :
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_Boost_Math
And BTW, this is my first wiki article, so please don't hate if it's an amateur job, and just edit and improve it if you can do better!
Link will be added in http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_Boost page as soon as the page changes are approved.
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just a thought, it would be nice to have some equeation that takes into account constant growing energy on the nexus, so say you were wanting to save chronoboost to get your collosus out as quick as possible in the game, it takes 3 full chronoboosts, however when you begin chronoboosting the robotics facility your nexus begins to gain energy and so you might only need to have 2 chronoboosts on your nexus because the third chronoboost will come from the energy gained during the first 2 chronoboost durations
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On February 24 2011 01:31 Allred wrote:
just a thought, it would be nice to have some equeation that takes into account constant growing energy on the nexus, so say you were wanting to save chronoboost to get your collosus out as quick as possible in the game, it takes 3 full chronoboosts, however when you begin chronoboosting the robotics facility your nexus begins to gain energy and so you might only need to have 2 chronoboosts on your nexus because the third chronoboost will come from the energy gained during the first 2 chronoboost durations
Specifically you need:
3*25 - 0.5625(2*20) = 52.5 energy.
Which I guess you could generalize slightly as:
25N - 11.25(N-1)
but only works when N is an element of {2, 3, 4, 5, 6} and one nexus
which I guess I could just list out:
- 2 -> 38.75 (39)
- 3 -> 52.5 (53)
- 4 -> 62.25 (63)
- 5 -> 80
- 6 -> 93.75 (94)
FWIW this chronoboost math and energy regeneration is also why
- if you're getting psi storm you should build high templar just after you start your second chrono boost if your playing perfectly to have storms available when storm research finishes. (i.e. you want to warp in high templar at 37 ticks into storm reserach).
- if your early game split, probe stacking, and first pylon are done correctly you should chronoboost your nexus at 39 energy and again at 25 energy as a 9 pylon finishes just as your 10th probe chrono'd at 39 energy completes and your nexus gets 25 energy just as your first chronoboost wears out
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On February 24 2011 02:24 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 01:31 Allred wrote:
just a thought, it would be nice to have some equeation that takes into account constant growing energy on the nexus, so say you were wanting to save chronoboost to get your collosus out as quick as possible in the game, it takes 3 full chronoboosts, however when you begin chronoboosting the robotics facility your nexus begins to gain energy and so you might only need to have 2 chronoboosts on your nexus because the third chronoboost will come from the energy gained during the first 2 chronoboost durations Specifically you need: 3*25 - 0.5625(2*20) = 52.5 energy. Which I guess you could generalize slightly as: 25N - 11.25(N-1) but only works when N is an element of {2, 3, 4, 5, 6} and one nexus which I guess I could just list out: - 2 -> 38.75 (39)
- 3 -> 52.5 (53)
- 4 -> 62.25 (63)
- 5 -> 80
- 6 -> 93.75 (94)
FWIW this chronoboost math and energy regeneration is also why - if you're getting psi storm you should build high templar just after you start your second chrono boost if your playing perfectly to have storms available when storm research finishes. (i.e. you want to warp in high templar at 37 ticks into storm reserach). - if your early game split, probe stacking, and first pylon are done correctly you should chronoboost your nexus at 39 energy and again at 25 energy as a 9 pylon finishes just as your 10th probe chrono'd at 39 energy completes and your nexus gets 25 energy just as your first chronoboost wears out
Really nice work getting this up, just added it to the Liquidpedia page too.
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No offence, but this is completely obvious. One chronoboost completes 30 seconds worth of build time in 20 seconds, so the time saving is 10 seconds.
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Very interesting stuff here. Unfortunately some people may think this is complicated because of all of the variables instead of actual numbers, but it's actually really straight forward. This can definitely be extremely useful in forming and optimizing a new build. I'm thinking I might just use this to try and figure out a good build for fast HT tech in PvZ/PvT, :D
Huge thanks for posting this, I'm definitely gonna save this for future use!
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Good information to know. This can help you plan chrono use better knowing how many you should be using per upgrade or unit. Thanks.
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I barely play SC2 and when I do I play zerg, but I saw this mistake in Liquipedia a few months ago and corrected it. Thanks for explaining the math thoroughly.
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I actually did this about a month ago in my starcraft notebook. I calculated the differences between using just 1 and multiple chrono boosts. I'll see if I can remember to add that to the wiki sometime this week.
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On February 24 2011 04:28 whatthefat wrote:
No offence, but this is completely obvious. One chronoboost completes 30 seconds worth of build time in 20 seconds, so the time saving is 10 seconds.
Yes, maybe it is quite obvious if you look at the simplest line of the post and stop reading, but is it really THAT obvious that you need exactly 63energy saved when you need 4 chrono boosts back to back for an upgrade?
Maybe the OP isn't the most complex ever, but the discussion generated from this thread brought some really interesting information. Even I, as a low diamond protoss, had no clue that it took 45secs to get 25energy on my nexus, or that I needed 5 chrono boosts but only 80energy saved to get my warp gates research the fastest possible.
So yeah, maybe the first formula and explanations are a bit too complex for something so obvious to you, but it gave birth to a discussion a lot more useful than your post stating that it is obvious information.
I'm not the best player, and by far, but I know that at least it was useful to me, so it will probably be useful to a lot more people.
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On February 24 2011 05:25 lurked wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 04:28 whatthefat wrote:
No offence, but this is completely obvious. One chronoboost completes 30 seconds worth of build time in 20 seconds, so the time saving is 10 seconds. Yes, maybe it is quite obvious if you look at the simplest line of the post and stop reading, but is it really THAT obvious that you need exactly 63energy saved when you need 4 chrono boosts back to back for an upgrade? Maybe the OP isn't the most complex ever, but the discussion generated from this thread brought some really interesting information. Even I, as a low diamond protoss, had no clue that it took 45secs to get 25energy on my nexus, or that I needed 5 chrono boosts but only 80energy saved to get my warp gates research the fastest possible. So yeah, maybe the first formula and explanations are a bit too complex for something so obvious to you, but it gave birth to a discussion a lot more useful than your post stating that it is obvious information. I'm not the best player, and by far, but I know that at least it was useful to me, so it will probably be useful to a lot more people.
The OP didn't include anything that wasn't a trivial consequence of that single fact. I agree, the subsequent discussion and derivation of how much initial energy is required to chronoboost N consecutive times is less obvious, and that's the kind of useful information that belongs in Liquipedia. It just seems strange to me to create a whole new page to essentially restate what is already on the Chronoboost page:
"Located at the Nexus, this ability can be activated using 25 energy and is used to increase the production or research speed at the target building by 50%. This allows the building to do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds, so production/research will complete 10 seconds earlier."
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Trivial though it may be, I for one am quite grateful for your work, OP. Having these figures stated explicitly will be very helpful in figuring out various build timings.
Knowing, for example, that you need exactly 5 CBs to speed out two colossus, and knowing when to start saving up energy, might become the cornerstone for a fast-colossus tech build. Alternatively, you can use 3 CBs to have a fast observer and immortal out - and that's just from a cursory glance at the final figures. Of course, I might just be shooting my mouth off, and none of this has any actual applicability, but someone will have to try it before saying so.
And OP, ignore the "critics": they're just jealous that you found something simple yet useful to contribute
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On February 23 2011 17:46 freetgy wrote:
understanding this actually makes seem Chronoboost a pretty weak ability.
The strengh of CB is the reduction in buildtime thus (using ressources faster)
i.e. a Chronoboost on Probes is usually more "worth" it as a chronoboost Upgrades
upgrades get faster 160->150 thats not even 10% faster
while Probes get ofcourse alot faster build (i.e 2 probes take 34s, with CB its 24s)
thats nearly 1/3 reduction.
Same for Chronoboosting units if we take a Warpgate Zealot
takes 28s cooldown
with chronoboost it takes 18,666s
effectivly you would need 3 Chronocycles to make the Macromechanic "worth" an additional Zealot. (for longer buildtimes this gets even worse)
Now compare this to Mules:
1 Mule gets you ~270 thats nearly 2 Gateways/Rax
2 mules are 1 additional Nexus/CC
which boost you production capacity alot faster than chronoboost ever could
and it is ofcourse more forgiving cause it gives you minerals which makes you a hell of more flexible in what you want to spend it too.
This also shows why Protoss is hit hardest by Economic Harass, beeing able to boost production doesn't mean shit if you don't have the income to do that.
weakest Macromechanic (= on Economic side)
just to make a comparison:
a Terran who builds an CC in his base can produces (has the additional mules)
2 SCV in 17s
a Protoss who boosts his Probes gets:
2 Probes in 24s
This also shows how bad CB Scales when the counts of bases get higher.
How often do we see Progamers still having much much energy on their Nexuses during mid/late game.
Conclusion:
Using Chronoboost on things that have small buildtimes more effective than cause the Speedup in % is alot higher, than on slower buildtimes.
We will see Terrans do inbase CCs because of macromechanic
We will see Zergs do inbase Hatches because of macromechanic
We will never see Protoss do inbase Nexuses, because of macromechanic
I wanted to scream when I read that -_-
Protip: Hatcheries are production buildings. The reason you don't see inbase hatcheries as often as in BW is because of their macro mechanic
Besides, what does it matter that Protoss' macro mechanic is less significant than the other races? If you made it better you would just have to nerf everything that Toss has, like how warpgates effected the balance of gateway units. There's no need to bring up the 'X is UP Y + Z is OP this is unfair *cry*' comment in every thread.
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I haven't read the thread yet, but is there a way to calculate the exact starting amount of energy required in order to chrono boost out warp-gate tech through the entire build time?
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Conclus s ions & Important Timings
just sayin' ..nice article.
XD
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wow, this is great! Thanks for being "that guy" in the community who takes that extra step and does the math for this kinda thing. It's really appreciated! :D
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I've updated the OP.
Thanks everyone for the support, comments, suggestions, etc.
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On February 24 2011 10:08 teamsolid wrote:
I haven't read the thread yet, but is there a way to calculate the exact starting amount of energy required in order to chrono boost out warp-gate tech through the entire build time?
Warpgate-Tech: 140 sec -> 93 1/3sec minimum Research time -> 4 2/3 CB (5) -> 125 Energy - 0.56 x 20 x 5 = 69 +-1 Energy
Last CB is not used entirely so you can be a bit off with your Timing and still need just 5 CB.
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I thought most/all of this was common knowledge, but it is nice to see it in one post.
I wrote a thread similar to this a few months ago that discusses the actual economic cost of chrono-ing something other than your Nexus early game and when.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179604
I would be interested to see a cost-benefit analysis of using Chrono on units vs warp gates, but I might just write one up if I ever get around to thinking about it.
Also it's worth noting that you should replace 33.3333% with 50% almost everywhere you note it.
If something is supposed to take 9 seconds but only takes 6, it is 50% faster than expected. If it is 100% faster, then it is only 4.5 seconds, and if it is 200% faster it is only 2.25 seconds. 900% faster, it would be 1 second.
Similarly, if something should take 9 seconds but is 33.33% faster, then it takes 6.75 seconds.
Example:
I want to chronoboost one probe. It builds in 11.5 seconds instead of 17. 17/11.5 = 1.5, or 50% faster. To compare 11.5 seconds to 17 seconds, we can say that it takes 67% as much time, or 33% less time, but we cannot say it is 33.33% faster. It is 50% faster.
Lastly, if you give two letters do a variable, do not capitalize them both. (This is nitpicky, but CR should be Cr or just C, as CR implies C*R, two variables.)
Hope this helps and thanks for the nifty spreadsheet.
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whattttttt i didn't know chrono boost affected shields. haha too bad shields only regen when they aren't being attacked. other than that i don't like looking at the math. i just use my "in game timer"  still nice work
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On February 24 2011 16:28 KillerPlague wrote:whattttttt i didn't know chrono boost affected shields. haha too bad shields only regen when they aren't being attacked. other than that i don't like looking at the math. i just use my "in game timer" still nice work
haha was about to post am i the only one shocked to see this? xD
seems a pretty big deal, i always mech against toss and in the early game immo's are so important
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On February 24 2011 13:05 michaelhasanalias wrote:I thought most/all of this was common knowledge, but it is nice to see it in one post. I wrote a thread similar to this a few months ago that discusses the actual economic cost of chrono-ing something other than your Nexus early game and when. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179604I would be interested to see a cost-benefit analysis of using Chrono on units vs warp gates, but I might just write one up if I ever get around to thinking about it. Also it's worth noting that you should replace 33.3333% with 50% almost everywhere you note it. If something is supposed to take 9 seconds but only takes 6, it is 50% faster than expected. If it is 100% faster, then it is only 4.5 seconds, and if it is 200% faster it is only 2.25 seconds. 900% faster, it would be 1 second. Similarly, if something should take 9 seconds but is 33.33% faster, then it takes 6.75 seconds. Example: I want to chronoboost one probe. It builds in 11.5 seconds instead of 17. 17/11.5 = 1.5, or 50% faster. To compare 11.5 seconds to 17 seconds, we can say that it takes 67% as much time, or 33% less time, but we cannot say it is 33.33% faster. It is 50% faster. Lastly, if you give two letters do a variable, do not capitalize them both. (This is nitpicky, but CR should be Cr or just C, as CR implies C*R, two variables.) Hope this helps and thanks for the nifty spreadsheet.
Gee thanks. You're right it's 50% faster.
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wow i cannot believe you put yourself under the stress of finding the equation and calculate everything.
Good job for the dedication.
Side Note: I also found out chrono boost speeds up warp gate transformation time lol
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Good things to know ^^ Thanks for the guide
While we're discussing about Chronoboost, is there a thread talking about diminishing returns of chronoboost on probes ? (using chronoboost on your first probe is more effective for your economy than chronoboosting the second etc... and by how much).
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On February 25 2011 00:55 Celerios wrote:Good things to know ^^ Thanks for the guide While we're discussing about Chronoboost, is there a thread talking about diminishing returns of chronoboost on probes ? (using chronoboost on your first probe is more effective for your economy than chronoboosting the second etc... and by how much).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179604
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"Located at the Nexus, this ability can be activated using 25 energy and is used to increase the production or research speed at the target building by 50%. This allows the building to do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds, so production/research will complete 10 seconds earlier." [/b]
Diamond/Master level players are not the only people reading this. So this is useful information for a new person to Sc2 and/or the lower leagues.
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On February 25 2011 01:22 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 00:55 Celerios wrote:Good things to know ^^ Thanks for the guide While we're discussing about Chronoboost, is there a thread talking about diminishing returns of chronoboost on probes ? (using chronoboost on your first probe is more effective for your economy than chronoboosting the second etc... and by how much). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179604
Thanks a lot !
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On February 24 2011 23:01 Volka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 13:05 michaelhasanalias wrote:I thought most/all of this was common knowledge, but it is nice to see it in one post. I wrote a thread similar to this a few months ago that discusses the actual economic cost of chrono-ing something other than your Nexus early game and when. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179604I would be interested to see a cost-benefit analysis of using Chrono on units vs warp gates, but I might just write one up if I ever get around to thinking about it. Also it's worth noting that you should replace 33.3333% with 50% almost everywhere you note it. If something is supposed to take 9 seconds but only takes 6, it is 50% faster than expected. If it is 100% faster, then it is only 4.5 seconds, and if it is 200% faster it is only 2.25 seconds. 900% faster, it would be 1 second. Similarly, if something should take 9 seconds but is 33.33% faster, then it takes 6.75 seconds. Example: I want to chronoboost one probe. It builds in 11.5 seconds instead of 17. 17/11.5 = 1.5, or 50% faster. To compare 11.5 seconds to 17 seconds, we can say that it takes 67% as much time, or 33% less time, but we cannot say it is 33.33% faster. It is 50% faster. Lastly, if you give two letters do a variable, do not capitalize them both. (This is nitpicky, but CR should be Cr or just C, as CR implies C*R, two variables.) Hope this helps and thanks for the nifty spreadsheet. Gee thanks. You're right it's 50% faster.
thread looks great now
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Never knew shield were affected. Learning something new everyday.
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Thanks for hammering this out!
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great post, will help me out with chrono timings. thank you
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also I don't know if this is common knowledge but the "Transform to warpgate" and "Transform to Gateway" abilities actually benefit from CB
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Nice post; clears up a lot of common misconceptions that people have about chronoboost.
Never knew that chronoboost speeds up shield regen either.
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On February 26 2011 06:54 pyjamads wrote:
also I don't know if this is common knowledge but the "Transform to warpgate" and "Transform to Gateway" abilities actually benefit from CB
I didn't know that either, thanks, I've added it to the spreedsheet.
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Nice! I had no idea that CB could boost the recovery of a regenerating building shield! I'll have to jump on to check that out myself. Good post.
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math is awesome! thx for the post good sir. i wonder if CB'ing my nexus while being killed my a dropship of marauders would save it enough time go get back home or something lawl
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General Build Time formula
If you apply more than one CB, then of course you get linear results:
Two chronos= 20 seconds.
Three chronos = 30 seconds.
And so on.
So the general formula to get a Bt modified by CB is:
Bt'=Bt-N*Cr
where N is the number of chronos applied.
That formula doesn't work.
An Immortal takes between 55.666-55.733 seconds to build (on normal speed). Normal doesn't follow the listed build times exactly. I used a frame-by-frame procedure of a recording of a digital stopwatch next to a robo, so there is no human error.
If we use one chrono boost, it reduces the build time to between 45.300-45.367 seconds.
So that chrono boost cut 10.366 seconds off the build time (on both sides)
If we build another Immortal and instead use 2 chrono boosts, it cuts the time down to between 37.865-37.934, meaning the second chrono boost cut between 7.433-7.435 seconds off, for a total reduction of between 17.799-17.801 seconds.
Following your formula,
Bt' = Bt - N * Cr
Bt' = 55.666 - 2 * 10.366
Bt' = 55.666 - 20.732
Bt' = 34.934
But the actual build time is 37.865-37.934
Or you could just break it by entering a worker unit into the formula (of which a CB cuts the time from 17.068-17.133 to 11.400-11.467, whereas the formula says ~7 seconds)
About 5 months ago, I actually had started a big project regarding Chrono Boost and build times in regards to game speed and real time, but I lost 9-12 hours of research in a computer crash and didn't want to redo everything.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 02 2011 15:38 TheYak wrote:Show nested quote +General Build Time formula
If you apply more than one CB, then of course you get linear results:
Two chronos= 20 seconds.
Three chronos = 30 seconds.
And so on.
So the general formula to get a Bt modified by CB is:
Bt'=Bt-N*Cr
where N is the number of chronos applied. That formula doesn't work. An Immortal takes between 55.666-55.733 seconds to build (on normal speed). Normal doesn't follow the listed build times exactly. I used a frame-by-frame procedure of a recording of a digital stopwatch next to a robo, so there is no human error. If we use one chrono boost, it reduces the build time to between 45.300-45.367 seconds. So that chrono boost cut 10.366 seconds off the build time (on both sides) If we build another Immortal and instead use 2 chrono boosts, it cuts the time down to between 37.865-37.934, meaning the second chrono boost cut between 7.433-7.435 seconds off, for a total reduction of between 17.799-17.801 seconds. Following your formula, Bt' = Bt - N * Cr Bt' = 55.666 - 2 * 10.366 Bt' = 55.666 - 20.732 Bt' = 34.934 But the actual build time is 37.865-37.934 Or you could just break it by entering a worker unit into the formula (of which a CB cuts the time from 17.068-17.133 to 11.400-11.467, whereas the formula says ~7 seconds) About 5 months ago, I actually had started a big project regarding Chrono Boost and build times in regards to game speed and real time, but I lost 9-12 hours of research in a computer crash and didn't want to redo everything.
o_O
I don't get some things about your numbers:
Why do you have an interval (55.666-55.733)? Does Starcraft take different times to build something? Or is it that your measuring method can't be exact? I did all testing at fastest. Apparently on normal, 1 game second=1 real second but not sure how exact that can be.
Also, CB Probe time is 11.33 (17/1.5), careful.
I'd explain your findings this way:
1) Since you have to manually chrono boost ,there's some limit on how accurate you can be.You have to deal with human error (unless you're Jaedong, there's some reaction time delay).
2) Starcraft (in fact: a computer) is not exactly an "atomic clock".
3) Your measure method might not be exact enough.
These factors add number noise. Most of the numbers you point out only differ in around 1% which I think is not really significant.
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How does Chrono boosting back to back work? I always get the feeling that a structure can be boosted before the ability wears off. Maybe it's just the way the animation looks.
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On March 07 2011 01:38 bobucles wrote:
How does Chrono boosting back to back work? I always get the feeling that a structure can be boosted before the ability wears off. Maybe it's just the way the animation looks.
Well you can overlap chronos if that's what you mean, but it's a waste of energy. Ideally you'll want to apply a chrono once the other has finished.
I assume the animation goes off as soon as the CB expires (20 game seconds).
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On March 07 2011 01:38 bobucles wrote:
How does Chrono boosting back to back work? I always get the feeling that a structure can be boosted before the ability wears off. Maybe it's just the way the animation looks.
You can select the building and look at the little icon at the top left, it disappears as soon as the chrono effect ends. The animation takes some time to disappear entirely after the effect has worn off, but the circling visual effect corresponds to the chrono effect.
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I guess I'm sorry for not coming back to respond. I wasn't really interested in actually discussing this. I just wanted to fire out my findings and forget about it, hoping it would go somewhere.
On March 07 2011 01:25 Volka wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 02 2011 15:38 TheYak wrote:Show nested quote +General Build Time formula
If you apply more than one CB, then of course you get linear results:
Two chronos= 20 seconds.
Three chronos = 30 seconds.
And so on.
So the general formula to get a Bt modified by CB is:
Bt'=Bt-N*Cr
where N is the number of chronos applied. That formula doesn't work. An Immortal takes between 55.666-55.733 seconds to build (on normal speed). Normal doesn't follow the listed build times exactly. I used a frame-by-frame procedure of a recording of a digital stopwatch next to a robo, so there is no human error. If we use one chrono boost, it reduces the build time to between 45.300-45.367 seconds. So that chrono boost cut 10.366 seconds off the build time (on both sides) If we build another Immortal and instead use 2 chrono boosts, it cuts the time down to between 37.865-37.934, meaning the second chrono boost cut between 7.433-7.435 seconds off, for a total reduction of between 17.799-17.801 seconds. Following your formula, Bt' = Bt - N * Cr Bt' = 55.666 - 2 * 10.366 Bt' = 55.666 - 20.732 Bt' = 34.934 But the actual build time is 37.865-37.934 Or you could just break it by entering a worker unit into the formula (of which a CB cuts the time from 17.068-17.133 to 11.400-11.467, whereas the formula says ~7 seconds) About 5 months ago, I actually had started a big project regarding Chrono Boost and build times in regards to game speed and real time, but I lost 9-12 hours of research in a computer crash and didn't want to redo everything. o_O I don't get some things about your numbers: Why do you have an interval (55.666-55.733)? Does Starcraft take different times to build something? Or is it that your measuring method can't be exact? I did all testing at fastest. Apparently on normal, 1 game second=1 real second but not sure how exact that can be. Also, CB Probe time is 11.33 (17/1.5), careful. I'd explain your findings this way: 1) Since you have to manually chrono boost ,there's some limit on how accurate you can be.You have to deal with human error (unless you're Jaedong, there's some reaction time delay). 2) Starcraft (in fact: a computer) is not exactly an "atomic clock". 3) Your measure method might not be exact enough. These factors add number noise. Most of the numbers you point out only differ in around 1% which I think is not really significant.
The interval is the timing of the exact frame before and after the the production bar disappears, because the stopwatch doesn't update 1000 times per second. There are no varying build times. My method was exact, given that the stopwatch is not inaccurate. I don't think this is true, considering the less precise findings of Tamerlane long ago.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=117215
He also found that "Normal" was slightly slower than real-time. I was able to narrow down the exact window.
I don't understand the probe thing. I don't really want to figure it out either.
There's no human error with the chrono boosting since 2 chronos is less than the total build time of a Immortal and I tested whether or not waiting to chrono the second time and first time made a difference. None of them did.
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CB and Nexus
-Empty Nexi (Ei=0).
You can get 1 CB every 45 seconds.
If you have more than you Nexus, then time is split. Example: 2 Nexi, then 1 CB every 22.5 secs, which is almost enough to get continuous CB.
^^^ This is an incorrect calculation...
It should be.
IF you have more than one nexus, then chrono is doubled. Example 2 Nexi, then 2 CB every 45 seconds.
Having more nexi does not shorten the time it takes to get a chrono out.
I don't know if anyone was puzzled by that but I guess it seemed necessary to point out even though this thread is hella old and someone keeps bumping.
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maybe you could write out in the top post, how much building you continually save per nexus. what I mean is that I want to know how many seconds a "Protoss build second" is if you assume chronoboosting right on time if you have 25 energy and then figure in the energy regeneration rate. it should give you a fix number per nexus
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heh, thanks I used your formulas (are they the same on wikipedia?) to make my own excel table, thanks.
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I want to point out something VERY obvious that was touched on but not really delved into:
2 Nexuses allows you near-constant chronoboosting (assuming both have 25 energy when the CBing begins), right? And CB obviously speeds production up by 50%.
What this means is that on two bases you can essentially use 1 robo or 1 stargate as 1.5 robos or stargates. In most 2-base double stargate builds, you don't have enough gas to constantly support 2 stargate's worth of production, right? What if you only built 1 stargate, and constantly used chronoboost on it? You would essentially match the production of a double-stargate build (after the first 2-3 units), while saving 150/150. This would allow you to take slightly later gases, which leads to more mineral income, which means you might be able to squeeze in an extra 1-2 gateways or a faster third that you wouldn't normally be able to, without sacrificing overall air production. Or maybe squeeze in a 100/100 upgrade with the same gas timings.
Alternatively, for any 1-robo colossus build off of 2 bases, you can give yourself ~50sec buildtime colossi (for the person complaining about the longer buildtime of 'Toss units).
The 2-base ramifications of this are definitely underdeveloped as of yet. How many times in our own play or watching pro replays/vods have we seen players struggle to fully produce out of 2 tech structures, while slipping with their use of chronoboost? Imagine how much smoother builds and timings could be if instead of a 2nd robo, players just used the near-constant CB that 2 Nexuses allow on their 1st robo.
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As income is measured by gas/minerals per minute, I think you should add gas/minerals used per minute to make it easier for people to formulate builds that rely on constantly building certain units. This way people can kind of fine tune their builds a bit better so they dont make more production than they need. basically the formula would go like
Cost*(60/BT')=cost per minute
oh yeah and a chronoboost means a 50% increase in production which means 33% reduction in time. This means if you use a chronoboost, you're build time becomes 66% of the original build time. This may be obvious to many but I think stating it would be beneficial.
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On June 21 2011 10:31 RampancyTW wrote:
I want to point out something VERY obvious that was touched on but not really delved into:
2 Nexuses allows you near-constant chronoboosting (assuming both have 25 energy when the CBing begins), right? And CB obviously speeds production up by 50%.
What this means is that on two bases you can essentially use 1 robo or 1 stargate as 1.5 robos or stargates. In most 2-base double stargate builds, you don't have enough gas to constantly support 2 stargate's worth of production, right? What if you only built 1 stargate, and constantly used chronoboost on it? You would essentially match the production of a double-stargate build (after the first 2-3 units), while saving 150/150. This would allow you to take slightly later gases, which leads to more mineral income, which means you might be able to squeeze in an extra 1-2 gateways or a faster third that you wouldn't normally be able to, without sacrificing overall air production. Or maybe squeeze in a 100/100 upgrade with the same gas timings.
Alternatively, for any 1-robo colossus build off of 2 bases, you can give yourself ~50sec buildtime colossi (for the person complaining about the longer buildtime of 'Toss units).
The 2-base ramifications of this are definitely underdeveloped as of yet. How many times in our own play or watching pro replays/vods have we seen players struggle to fully produce out of 2 tech structures, while slipping with their use of chronoboost? Imagine how much smoother builds and timings could be if instead of a 2nd robo, players just used the near-constant CB that 2 Nexuses allow on their 1st robo.
Meh. Imo CB is more worth it on probes and upgrades, and besides 1,5 stargates is so not 2 stargates.
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some useful math to consider when constructing builds i suppose. thanks :D
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On June 21 2011 11:41 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 10:31 RampancyTW wrote:
I want to point out something VERY obvious that was touched on but not really delved into:
2 Nexuses allows you near-constant chronoboosting (assuming both have 25 energy when the CBing begins), right? And CB obviously speeds production up by 50%.
What this means is that on two bases you can essentially use 1 robo or 1 stargate as 1.5 robos or stargates. In most 2-base double stargate builds, you don't have enough gas to constantly support 2 stargate's worth of production, right? What if you only built 1 stargate, and constantly used chronoboost on it? You would essentially match the production of a double-stargate build (after the first 2-3 units), while saving 150/150. This would allow you to take slightly later gases, which leads to more mineral income, which means you might be able to squeeze in an extra 1-2 gateways or a faster third that you wouldn't normally be able to, without sacrificing overall air production. Or maybe squeeze in a 100/100 upgrade with the same gas timings.
Alternatively, for any 1-robo colossus build off of 2 bases, you can give yourself ~50sec buildtime colossi (for the person complaining about the longer buildtime of 'Toss units).
The 2-base ramifications of this are definitely underdeveloped as of yet. How many times in our own play or watching pro replays/vods have we seen players struggle to fully produce out of 2 tech structures, while slipping with their use of chronoboost? Imagine how much smoother builds and timings could be if instead of a 2nd robo, players just used the near-constant CB that 2 Nexuses allow on their 1st robo. Meh. Imo CB is more worth it on probes and upgrades, and besides 1,5 stargates is so not 2 stargates.
Basically what he's saying is that 1.5 stargates with chronoboost is essentially the same as 2 stargates not producing at full production. If you end up not building the extra stargate, you would then have the money to upgrade where as if you built the second stargate you would not have the upgrade to chronoboost. His post is also talking about build order not optimal CB usage.
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erm.. in the calculation of CBs to WG research, you should to add what EC, RG and DC are supposed to be
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EPT
