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Hey TL, I wanted to express my opinion on this and see what comments I get back.
So basically, I think that it doesn't work in the protoss's favor. That was the short easy summary. Now to the context.
1) Zerg is clearly the macro race. We can macro like kings while protoss is the tech race basically. Whenever I see a FFE, I have a huge sigh of relief because I then just drone up like there's no tomorrow and I get a third before my first unit other than queens ovies, and maybe a ling or 2. Obviously unless I feel that pressure is coming. I then go mass upgraded lings, and mutas with late game infestors and broods or ultras.
Short summary- zerg macros better
2) I think that zerg is also the best race for harassment. I may be wrong but i feel that between ovie drops, nydus worms, the speed of lings and mutas, the damage 3 blings can do to a mineral line, and infestors FG and infested terrans, burrowed roaches, and brood lord harass, (although basically none existent because of how long it takes to get them, it can still work) we are the best race for harassment. This also obviously changes by skill level but I'm sure that you understand what I am saying. With the FE build from protoss, they are extremely immobile in the early game, and much of the midgame. It forces units like blink stalkers, possibly pheonix, and cannons usually.
Short summary- zerg harasses better
3) Ling muta with good harass is really tough to stop IMO. Pheonixes are useless against a 3 base or 3 + base zerg because of the sheer lack of numbers. Voids are for similar problems. Carriers are decent but corrupters make carriers useless. Collossus play doesn't work out too well because mutas shut it down so quickly for obvious reasons and you can get out corrupters to deal with them as well. The only other thing that might work is Hts????? Hts could deal with the mutas and lings i guess but i mean comon how hard is it to tech switch to more roach heavy armies. No the only reasonable option that I have seen is a mass gateway army of primarily blink stalkers which get eating away by lings. 2 or 3 good FGs can just hold that stalker army in position and completely demolish it. If zealots get into the mix, then you can always transition to a roach hydra composition. The reason you can do all of this is because you should be on 3 base to the protoss 2 base, possibly even 4 base. If u see the fast forge go down, check for proxies, a nexus and then expand.
So for the final summary, Forge Fast Expand just isn't viable against zergs because it calls for a macro game which is basically trying to beat zerg at their own game. Thoughts, opinions?
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Protoss can macro too you know, a protoss voidray/coli with some gateway units 200/200 deathball is a very scary thing to deal with as a zerg.
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I do find forge fast expand to be preferable to fourgate in terms of opponent strategy choice, but it also can lead to problems. I have both seen other people and have myself been guilty of making the mistake of macroing so hard that tech gets left by the wayside. A two-base toss push can be exceedingly difficult to stop even on 3 bases for the zerg, given the level of tech available to the zerg. The toss can just push out with templar/sentries and their meatshield of choice.
More importantly, the map makes a huge difference here. On a map like Jungle Basin where a third is harder to take/hold the toss will be at a huge advantage if he does the FFE. I have yet to try it but in this situation maybe a heavy harass and army split would work better? I like to start at the edges and irritate my opponent into making a mistake to cover my 3rd base. Just my thoughts though, so take them with a grain of salt 
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As a protoss i can say that if you don't attack me quickly and try to be greedy with an early third i will take a third too. At this point no matter the number of expos you take i can turtle and build a nasty deathball, this kind of macro games is perfect for toss.
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I kind of agree. FFE isn't as viable as a 3 gate with heavy sentry, because as you said, protoss is the tech race. since you delay the gas with a forge fast expand, we can't get out our tech units as fast. this becomes a problem, as sentries are vital to holding against a push of roaches and lings. cannons really don't cut it in that case. the earlier gas plays also transition to the mid/late game better as protoss wants to be teching, most likely to colossi/voids.
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Zerg macros better when protoss stops at 2 bases and sets up a timing push without putting on any pressure. However, if zerg tries to take a 3rd too quickly, a paltry force of gateway units can completely stomp it with a couple forcefields on a ramp. Awesome, its now 2 base vs 2 base.
Your harassment point isnt a very good one either. Most of the things you listed require protoss to have no coverage of his base with buildings and no observers. If toss FFE, its either a 6-gate timing attack thats intended to break you just before your mutas pop or heavy robo units that will require 3 or 4 times the food to break it.
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some people might say you taking a fast third evens the playing field with the protoss.
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Sheesh I wish Zerg played a macro game when I go FFE. Usually they one-base allinme, inbase hatch me, nydus wormed me, baneling busted,etc...
And Terran, not Zerg, is the harassing race. I mean, cmon (fking Banshees).
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The reason you find it easy to deal with a Forge FE as Zerg is because Protoss who do a Forge, then a nexus, then hide behind their cannons and try to mass up an army are fucking stupid.
a 3gate sentry expand, adding a forge up later, is a much better expand build vs Zerg because it gives you an army with which to pressure the Zerg into making stuff that isn't drones.
You're right, when I play Zerg, when I see a Protoss go down to his natural choke on, say, Lost Temple, and throw down a pylon, then a forge and some cannons, I giggle to myself.
But this isn't because Zerg is somehow magically able to out-macro a fast expanding Protoss no matter what, its because Forge FE done in that way is a bad build.
Especially against 15 Hatch, a Protoss has to either Nexus first and forget the forge until after the Nexus is down, in order to match the Zerg's worker count with his own, or go a more normal expansion timing and pressure the Zerg to stop him making drones.
Plexa's PvZ overview covers this quite well - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167992
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I usually love it when I go up against a forge FE, especially when I go 14 hatch, as I quickly grab a third, macro up real quick, and then pump roach/hydra in preparation for their 2-base push which I usually hold off nicely and then just expand to a fourth or go for the kill/contain.
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Thanks for the input guys. I do want to mention though that this wasn't a strategy that you must abide by and do the way I do it. Obviously I will get an army to hold off a 6 gate timing push or whatever the protoss has in mind. I didn't mean to make it sound like a 1 time "I really hope he won't attack me soon because I'm only going to drone and queen for the next 5 minutes." If I feel that a push is coming out, then I will just do a 2 base hydra play which shuts down immorts and voids fairly well imo. My point was not that FFE from protoss is just a lame ass BO against zerg that is utterly useless and can get crushed by wood league players, just that against equally leveled players, it favors zerg for protoss to FFE.
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I found after a few games where I tried this strat that forge FE is very fragile against 2base rush from Z with roaches + glings if you don't go at least 5 gates and chrono WG
but that's me, my practice buddy Z like that kind of 2base all-in but against a Z who want a macro game, it's pretty ok.
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On February 22 2011 11:08 Terminator(471) wrote:
My point was not that FFE from protoss is just a lame ass BO against zerg that is utterly useless and can get crushed by wood league players, just that against equally leveled players, it favors zerg for protoss to FFE.
And its still a wrong point to be making.
There is a reason why iNcontroL, widely renowned as having some of the best PvZ play out there, does a 3gate sentry fast expand as standard, adding a forge and robo. 2base Hydra play is dangerous to try. If you don't do well with your creep spread, you'll be exposed out on the map, and if you miscalculate his army, you'll lose every single Hydra, and losing Hydras is not something a Zerg can afford to take lightly, they are fucking expensive units.
Expanding with sentries is one of the safest things a Protoss can do vs a Zerg, no matter what strategy the Zerg is going for, because expanding early while you have a zealot and a couple sentries is safe against any early 1base play (and if the Zerg is 1basing you can just delay throwing down the Nexus), and while the Nexus is building you build up more of a sentry count and are essentially not only invulnerable to anything the Zerg can throw at you, but also able to move forward and pressure with little fear of being hurt due to the huge amount of forcefields you can lay down.
I'm not saying that you're completely wrong and bad and terrible, but sentry expand with a forge added later for cannons is a strong build against Zerg, and fast expanding as Protoss in general is the best way to deal with an FE Zerg. If done badly, it obviously puts the Zerg in an advantageous position, but any bad build executed badly will do that.
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On February 22 2011 11:25 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 11:08 Terminator(471) wrote:
My point was not that FFE from protoss is just a lame ass BO against zerg that is utterly useless and can get crushed by wood league players, just that against equally leveled players, it favors zerg for protoss to FFE. And its still a wrong point to be making. There is a reason why iNcontroL, widely renowned as having some of the best PvZ play out there, does a 3gate sentry fast expand as standard, adding a forge and robo. 2base Hydra play is dangerous to try. If you don't do well with your creep spread, you'll be exposed out on the map, and if you miscalculate his army, you'll lose every single Hydra, and losing Hydras is not something a Zerg can afford to take lightly, they are fucking expensive units. Expanding with sentries is one of the safest things a Protoss can do vs a Zerg, no matter what strategy the Zerg is going for, because expanding early while you have a zealot and a couple sentries is safe against any early 1base play (and if the Zerg is 1basing you can just delay throwing down the Nexus), and while the Nexus is building you build up more of a sentry count and are essentially not only invulnerable to anything the Zerg can throw at you, but also able to move forward and pressure with little fear of being hurt due to the huge amount of forcefields you can lay down.
I agree 3 gate sentry works well against zerg I know from experience but the topic was against forge fast expand not 3 gate sentry.
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On February 22 2011 11:28 Terminator(471) wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 11:25 Dhalphir wrote:On February 22 2011 11:08 Terminator(471) wrote:
My point was not that FFE from protoss is just a lame ass BO against zerg that is utterly useless and can get crushed by wood league players, just that against equally leveled players, it favors zerg for protoss to FFE. And its still a wrong point to be making. There is a reason why iNcontroL, widely renowned as having some of the best PvZ play out there, does a 3gate sentry fast expand as standard, adding a forge and robo. 2base Hydra play is dangerous to try. If you don't do well with your creep spread, you'll be exposed out on the map, and if you miscalculate his army, you'll lose every single Hydra, and losing Hydras is not something a Zerg can afford to take lightly, they are fucking expensive units. Expanding with sentries is one of the safest things a Protoss can do vs a Zerg, no matter what strategy the Zerg is going for, because expanding early while you have a zealot and a couple sentries is safe against any early 1base play (and if the Zerg is 1basing you can just delay throwing down the Nexus), and while the Nexus is building you build up more of a sentry count and are essentially not only invulnerable to anything the Zerg can throw at you, but also able to move forward and pressure with little fear of being hurt due to the huge amount of forcefields you can lay down. I agree 3 gate sentry works well against zerg I know from experience but the topic was against forge fast expand not 3 gate sentry.
Correct, but forge fast expand using the build order you're talking about is a bad build and easily crushed by either 15 hatch or 1base roach.
Not to detract from the work you put into this thread, because its a great OP, but all you've essentially stated in this thread is "When a Protoss player does a bad build for PvZ, I can beat him"
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IMO, the recent IEM league showed a lot of strong forge fast expand builds with accurate timings and careful building placements. e.g. if zerg 15 hatch before pool, protoss can nexus first before forge.
the building placement and build order is also sort of well thought of. after the nexus, forge and gateway is built, double gas is built before core which allow a sentry to be built together with the warpgate research. transition can be stargate or 5 gate + robo.
there are maps that have backdoor rocks that can be destroyed such as shakuras plateau. the stargate is actually placed at the natural instead of the main. as a result, if there happen to be any zergling rush from the backdoor, the probes can evacuate to the natural, leaving the main empty. the only few stuffs the zergling can attack will be the nexus and 1 or 2 pylons. any attempts to enter the natural, the sentry will be able to forcefield and block the ramp. the void ray spawned together with cannons will be able to deal with the roach/ling rush.
the stargate will be transitioned to 2 stargate 5 warpgate push to pressure zerg into making units instead of feeling too comfortble droning in the case where there is no rush and zerg is macroing. it is then transited again into colossus to get the final vr colossus stalker unit combination, pushing out only after securing the 3rd base.
in short, the whole build order is quite well thought of to deal with both zerg rush and macro zerg. a great deal of apm is needed though to pull this off, since a lot of constant scouting need to be done while running away from the lings. main thing to scout for is the tech building and amount of units made, to decide the number of cannons to make.
there is this combination of units that looks interesting and powerful on early-mid game. 2 vr 2 phoenix. the phoenix can lift off the queen to prevent any transfusion and kill the other queen (assuming at the point of engagement, there is only 2-3 queens).
but i think this forge expand build may be countered by overpool build from zerg. because the zerg can choose to either pump lings from the early pool, or power drone with the early queen. it is not easy for the protoss player to really know what the zerg will make, thus forcing him to wall up earlier than the required timing and force a late nexus. this can really delay any timing the protoss have in mind.
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On March 10 2011 04:06 blight wrote:
IMO, the recent IEM league showed a lot of strong forge fast expand builds with accurate timings and careful building placements. e.g. if zerg 15 hatch before pool, protoss can nexus first before forge.
the building placement and build order is also sort of well thought of. after the nexus, forge and gateway is built, double gas is built before core which allow a sentry to be built together with the warpgate research. transition can be stargate or 5 gate + robo.
there are maps that have backdoor rocks that can be destroyed such as shakuras plateau. the stargate is actually placed at the natural instead of the main. as a result, if there happen to be any zergling rush from the backdoor, the probes can evacuate to the natural, leaving the main empty. the only few stuffs the zergling can attack will be the nexus and 1 or 2 pylons. any attempts to enter the natural, the sentry will be able to forcefield and block the ramp. the void ray spawned together with cannons will be able to deal with the roach/ling rush.
the stargate will be transitioned to 2 stargate 5 warpgate push to pressure zerg into making units instead of feeling too comfortble droning in the case where there is no rush and zerg is macroing. it is then transited again into colossus to get the final vr colossus stalker unit combination, pushing out only after securing the 3rd base.
in short, the whole build order is quite well thought of to deal with both zerg rush and macro zerg. a great deal of apm is needed though to pull this off, since a lot of constant scouting need to be done while running away from the lings. main thing to scout for is the tech building and amount of units made, to decide the number of cannons to make.
there is this combination of units that looks interesting and powerful on early-mid game. 2 vr 2 phoenix. the phoenix can lift off the queen to prevent any transfusion and kill the other queen (assuming at the point of engagement, there is only 2-3 queens).
but i think this forge expand build may be countered by overpool build from zerg. because the zerg can choose to either pump lings from the early pool, or power drone with the early queen. it is not easy for the protoss player to really know what the zerg will make, thus forcing him to wall up earlier than the required timing and force a late nexus. this can really delay any timing the protoss have in mind.
Great post. Basically, forge fast expanding is actually all about scouting. As a macro zerg, I actually fear macro protoss because that means they will reach the death ball much sooner. If possible, I try to bust with zergling/roach and pray that their sim city is bad.
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A protoss with two nexus (nexii?) can chronoboost out probes very, very quickly. It's very hard for zerg to catch up to this lead if they opened gas/pool (standard in ZvP due to cannonage), and by the time zerg does catch up, Protoss has moved straight into the dangerous units of voidray and collosi that are so cost efficient against zerg units that pure macro will struggle to be effective. It's not a bad opening at all, provided the protoss knows what they're doing.
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Ace basically FFE every game vs zerg and lost 1 when he FFE it was on Scrap Station, Moon got very lucky with his scouting and get to see everything very early he managed to hold the push
in all his matches you can see how often his opponent pros zergs decide to go ling>mutas
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you clearly dont know what your talking about and have never faced off against the 6gate +1 weapons timing push which kills zergs who go for a greedy 3rd or Muta-ling without like 10 spines for defense.....
Not to mention that Protoss can build a 200/200 army off of 1 base that would wipe any army you can muster off of 4 bases off the map unless you handle it in very very very specific ways.....
Forge FE is one of the best protoss opener's out there.
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when i see a forge fe i immediately get roaches and attack - protoss has zero ranged units at this point and a low number of pylons or cannons; for me this is definitely the most sucessful situation in zvp - i honestly dont get why anyone would go into a macro heavy game that leads to protoss 2 bases vs zerg 3 bases where zerg cant push and when protoss takes 3rd the game is done
those who still think zerg is all about macro must have missed the results of IEM - zerg is the race that has to take its chances and being flexible which includes macro ofc but not exclusively
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Calgary25990 Posts
I hate threads like these. You just write text counters and then make wild conclusions. For example:
Premise: Protoss >> Terran
If he makes infantry I just get storm, immortals beat tanks and phoenixes beat vikings
Conclusion: Terran should always all-in vs Protoss
Obviously the real game doesn't work like that and plenty of people have shown viability using FFE vs Zerg. Every decent FFE follows up with ridiculous gateway pressure (at least 5 warpgates) or a stargate to deal with mutas.
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I agree with you in saying zerg is the better Macro and Harassment race(those are actually the 2 reasons I picked zerg) But FFE isn't a bad build because Protoss late game is so strong most Protoss's feel like FFE is a safe opener to get them to there 200/200 deathball.
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I find Forge FE's hit or miss depending on what the protoss does and what the zerg does. This does sound vague but let me explain.
If I am up against FFE's, I will go for mutas. I will just rush to spire and get mutalisks out with 4 gasses. If you didn't open with 2 stargates, I will have so much fun harrassing your mineral line or snipe pylons, stalkers, and basically keep you pinned to your 2 bases, because you delayed warp gate research so much. Sure you have a good economy, but you won't get a third long before I have mine, which is pretty key to overpower a zerg.
If you DID get 2 stargates, I can get a quicker third regardless. Because you will be making phoenixes to combat my mutalisks, which cant lif up buildings. And I can delay your third with lings because your ground army will be smaller and weaker, because I'm forcing you to invest in loads of phoenixes.
So if I go for spire and you go for 2 stargates, I can basically predict that you will get a robo facility with a collosus den afterwards. So you can aim for a collosus voidray deathball. Giving me ample time to set up my possible defense. If he did decide to go for a more gateway centric style, I can crush that with 3base roach ling anyway.
If the zerg decides to not go for mutalisks, and instead goes for lings or roaches or hydra bust or a quick third, the protoss can simply react and be perfectly fine. Hydra's and roaches? I'll build a collosus and sit here until I have an army that roasts yours. Mass roaches? I'll go immortal/stalker/sentry, gg boy. Oh you're taking a quick third really quickly? Let me do the same and put cannons there, have fun trying to break that with an all in.
------------------------------ TL DR --------------------------------
To summary my opinion. I would almost always say that 3gate expand is superior to a FFE. Simply because of the sheer variety and flexibility of it. The zerg cant go for some onebase muta play and expect no units. You don't have to deal with silly all-ins either that the zerg might win because you misplaced a cannon.
However, on maps such as shakuras that have an easily defendable third. FFE reigns supreme. Toss doesn't have to care that you are going on 4 bases, he has 3 bases and he is enjoying his perfect world where he can upgrade and get superior tech units. You CAN'T cost-effectively break an entrenched protoss. Not even broodlords with a max roach/hydra army. Forcefields and protoss upgraded splash is simply too strong if your only option is to force your army through one passage without the ability to surround or get a good concave.
FFE on shakuras, maybe shattered temp, 3gate expo is superior on other maps from my experience.
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On March 10 2011 04:13 ryc wrote:
Great post. Basically, forge fast expanding is actually all about scouting. As a macro zerg, I actually fear macro protoss because that means they will reach the death ball much sooner. If possible, I try to bust with zergling/roach and pray that their sim city is bad.
thks!
against fast mutas, i think ur ground army would not be that strong. i'm not sure about the timing of "rushing" mutas. but i think that is probably the reason of having 2 stargate 5 warpgate pressure. btw, the the pressure will consist mainly of 1 or 2 vr and some pheonix (not sure the number), and mainly about 4-6 sentries and 5-7 zealots with more warping out reinforcing. even if u have enough mutas to kill the air, you will not have enough ground to kill the zealot sentry in time before at least some econ dmg is dealt. if you have taken ur third when the push is coming, the less ground force you have, which might be worse.
of course, that pressure is not an all in. because protoss have 2 bases 4 gas, he can easily make a robo facility and robo bay during the pressure. if the pressure is didn't do any econ dmg, protoss is of course behind. but the main purpose is to delay zerg from mass droning too much, as well as to get the robo tech for the colossus vr stalker unit combi. the longer protoss can delay, the better position he will get. he will definitely need to secure a third before pushing out though.
so i think all these are just how both sides play, balancing the units and drones created, and for protoss getting the positioning and knowing when to push out. either ways are a test of both sides' skills, and not just any hit or miss sort of thing. just my opinion though. i'm a terran player.
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On February 22 2011 11:34 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 11:28 Terminator(471) wrote:On February 22 2011 11:25 Dhalphir wrote:On February 22 2011 11:08 Terminator(471) wrote:
My point was not that FFE from protoss is just a lame ass BO against zerg that is utterly useless and can get crushed by wood league players, just that against equally leveled players, it favors zerg for protoss to FFE. And its still a wrong point to be making. There is a reason why iNcontroL, widely renowned as having some of the best PvZ play out there, does a 3gate sentry fast expand as standard, adding a forge and robo. 2base Hydra play is dangerous to try. If you don't do well with your creep spread, you'll be exposed out on the map, and if you miscalculate his army, you'll lose every single Hydra, and losing Hydras is not something a Zerg can afford to take lightly, they are fucking expensive units. Expanding with sentries is one of the safest things a Protoss can do vs a Zerg, no matter what strategy the Zerg is going for, because expanding early while you have a zealot and a couple sentries is safe against any early 1base play (and if the Zerg is 1basing you can just delay throwing down the Nexus), and while the Nexus is building you build up more of a sentry count and are essentially not only invulnerable to anything the Zerg can throw at you, but also able to move forward and pressure with little fear of being hurt due to the huge amount of forcefields you can lay down. I agree 3 gate sentry works well against zerg I know from experience but the topic was against forge fast expand not 3 gate sentry. Correct, but forge fast expand using the build order you're talking about is a bad build and easily crushed by either 15 hatch or 1base roach.
Sorry to quote an old post, but it's been months before I've seen a post this bad in the strategy forum. It's far more accurate to say "15 hatch and 1base roach are bad builds that easily get crushed by forge fast expand".
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When tos ffe and u think its safe to drone up? I dont think so. Tos being safe in early game can be deadly as mid game comes
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EPT
