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On February 20 2011 05:31 Farmerz wrote:I, apparently opposed to all others, am rather full of doubts. My thoughts about that build are 1) rather exposed pylon, as you mentioned already 2) 6 pool / 7 pool is defended easily anyways, noneed to make it "easier", because you kinda cannot lose to it anyways 3) on almost no standard map you have such a ramp. Usually you have a normal edge and an edge in another angle, so you can always build your buildings avoiding the normal edge. Doing that mb only 1 Roach is attacking your zealot. 4) you don't really block the ramp, because hes able to let many roaches go up the ramp and only then getting blocked by your buildings. that means more roaches can attack your buildings / units, because they are not all clustered up on the ramp 5) besides all that negative aspects, if a zerg goes ling/roach allin on 1 base, you most likely have sentry and stalkers about to pop anyways, or even your warpgate upgrade, so noneed to risk all facts that I mentioned just to have a slight advantage for 1 scenario but I still like it that people are trying to figure out detailed advantages, keep up the work! 
I think I've addressed a lot of your points already so I won't restate them all but for the rest:
2) Sure 6 pool may be easy to defend (not on Steppes) but if this wall is the difference between holding it off say 9/10 times instead of 8/10 times, I'd say it is worth it. Same goes for the 3 roach speedling all in.
3) I have yet to find a ramp where if your zealot is at the edge of the wall, he can't be hit by at least 3 roaches. If you have an example of one, please post.
4) You technically can't block the ramp with any wall-in, ramps are unbuildable terrain. The point is that roaches don't need to be up a ramp to attack your wall since overlords can give them sight. Roaches up a ramp are actually more exposed to be force fielded, separated, and picked off so that's really not the issue here.
5) Having this type of wall-in helps tremendously with the all-in mentioned in the OP which blows away standard timings (go check it out) and has roaches at your ramp before warp gates are done and before you have many units out. Here's the thread that got all this discussion started in the first place.
OK fine I guess I ended up addressing all your points, oh well =P.
Edit: Thanks Pebbz, you beat me to it.
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This wallin allows you to deal with muta easier, and thats pretty much it. Since a 'standard' wall-in allows only 1 stalker in at a time this wallin [once you kill they pylon late game] will allow 2 stalkers to go through at a time and will allow your army to get from mineral patch to mineral patch a lot quicker.
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On February 20 2011 05:54 Pebbz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 05:31 Farmerz wrote:I, apparently opposed to all others, am rather full of doubts. My thoughts about that build are 1) rather exposed pylon, as you mentioned already 2) 6 pool / 7 pool is defended easily anyways, noneed to make it "easier", because you kinda cannot lose to it anyways 3) on almost no standard map you have such a ramp. Usually you have a normal edge and an edge in another angle, so you can always build your buildings avoiding the normal edge. Doing that mb only 1 Roach is attacking your zealot. 4) you don't really block the ramp, because hes able to let many roaches go up the ramp and only then getting blocked by your buildings. that means more roaches can attack your buildings / units, because they are not all clustered up on the ramp 5) besides all that negative aspects, if a zerg goes ling/roach allin on 1 base, you most likely have sentry and stalkers about to pop anyways, or even your warpgate upgrade, so noneed to risk all facts that I mentioned just to have a slight advantage for 1 scenario but I still like it that people are trying to figure out detailed advantages, keep up the work! 1) forcefields 2) wait.. you want to be LESS safe? 3) 1 roach attacking my zealot will make me lose 4) forcefields 5) forcefields
if your answer to everything is forcefields, why even bother to make a wall? you cannot block the ramp for ever and then you need a good position to defend. 1 roach attacking your zealot doesnt make you lose, because usually you have at least 1 stalker or a sentry to attack that one roach, so he will not sacrifice roaches early on to maybe pick off your zealot. and even if he would - you could place a pylon there.
and to 2) - its not needed to change anybuild and gain disadvantages if your advantage is fairly unneeded. why make yourself more vulnerable to baneling bust or smth like that, when 6 pool is no problem anyways?
and i just noticed another disadvantage. i personally encounter a lot of early 1 base speedling pushes. usually you have 1 zealot and 1 sentry almost up when his first wave arrives at your base. the only thinig i have to do is to hold those waves and im fine, but with that "new" build i have an exposed pylon, which will eventually die to those zerglings. i cant move my zealot away or they will rush in. all zerglings will attack my buildings and i need to buy time 'til my stalker and sentries pop up. and that "new" wall is more vulnerable to any attacks.
i will try to find a zerg for some games that proof my point ^^
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/T17jn.jpg)
What am i doing wrong in this wall? i've had lings just run by the hold pos zealot when its right in the middle of the 1u gap.
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I don't like this wall. It takes up a lot more space at the top of the ramp that my stalkers need to shoot down from if I'm going to kill off those roaches. I end up with 2-3 stalkers trying to kill off 7 roaches focusing down my cyber core from the bottom of the ramp, and the only way to get the rest of the stalkers closer is to bring them into roach range .
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Well didn't protosses use a wall-in similar to this one with just gate, core, and pylon behind them (i mean not part of the wall?)?
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On February 19 2011 15:57 AbeToss wrote:
The fact that roaches can target the weakest point of your wall even if you force field your ramp makes this rush a nightmare.
If you've got a force field anyway, just plant it and run your Zealot away from the ramp.
I could get behind this wall if it wasn't weaker to baneling busts or made it harder to shoot from the top of your ramp. Since I can just do the above, I see no reason to use this type of wall.
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On February 21 2011 09:48 snow2.0 wrote:What am i doing wrong in this wall? i've had lings just run by the hold pos zealot when its right in the middle of the 1u gap.
Either you accidentally made the gap too big or the zealot was just slightly off. I've had lings run by my seemingly tight zealot wall before, I believe it even has to do with which way the zealot is facing.
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You can't do this wall-off on all maps, as seen above. The gateway needs to be one pixel closer to the cyber core or vice versa for it to work.
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thats funny cause i would just run the zealot back and chrono stalks or a sentry..
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Calgary25987 Posts
Very very interesting. This is the kind of analysis and creative viewing we need in the TL SC2 Strategy forum.
Thank you very much OP.
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It's nice, but it is weaker vs super early speedling all-ins (off of like 12-13 pool but before 2nd sentry) because they can poke at your pylon out of range of your zealot and run in if you try and pull your zealot, etc etc. Whitera lost this way using this wall vs some zerg. Also, 6pool wall-in may take an extra probe but with this wall-in if you make stalkers then you can't fit them out if you did the shown 6pool wallin. Considering the 2nd pylon can be used for supply until you break out, I wouldn't consider it a waste of money.
3roach all-in doesn't scare me, I build 2 cannons vs it anyway. I'll be sticking with my old walls.
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EPT
