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AbeToss
United States60 Posts
On February 19 2011 16:50 andrewwiggin wrote: Don't want to be losing my cybernetics core to 3 roaches =/ Just swap your core to the less vulnerable side if there is one. Your cybernetics core is not really the issue, it has plenty of hp whereas your zealot doesn't. No matter what wall-in you use your gateway and/or core will be in range of roaches. | ||
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thezergk
United States492 Posts
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Gooey
United States944 Posts
Ends up looking like this: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4926/tosswallin.png) You will have the minerals to start your pylon before the zealot pops out to wall off for a standard 14 pool, and also have the 3x3 space to drop a forge to wall off any super early pool (or another gateway if you prefer). The great part is that you can wall off with high HP buildings that buy plenty of time for warpgate to finish. The cyber core is far enough back that it cannot be picked off by roaches, leaving only gateways (or if you need the panic forge) exposed. It can't be baneling busted easily either, even though the pylon seems like a weak point. You can prevent this by just building another one behind it and stuffing more zealots into the little hole (or just use sentries and laugh like I do? idk). I haven't had any problems ever with this wall, and can stop any and all cheese zerg can do. I have tried every combo, and this is absolutely the safest wall for a standard ramp. | ||
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CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
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eGoTricKShoT
United States46 Posts
On February 19 2011 16:47 AbeToss wrote: Could you elaborate more on the ways to make the gateway/core less vulnerable with the standard wall-in? what i meant by making your gateway/cyber core less vulnerable is basically what you have in the second picture of the current standard wall in... you keep the core as far away from the edge of the wall as possible so the roaches cant range it from the low ground, or on certain maps if they can its usually only one roach that can (altho this isnt always true), and get that stalker out as soon as possible to stay out of range of the low ground roaches while still hitting them... they can switch to the gateway which is on the other side of the ramp but they wont kill it before 1-2 stalkers are able to kill off the 3 roaches - i explained the best i could, hope it made sense even without pictures which would make it more clear... with this new wall in that core can be hit by all 3 roaches + any reinforcments that come making it more vulnerable than the standard wall in | ||
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EnTaroAdun411
Philippines106 Posts
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KnowMe
Germany228 Posts
in my opening that wallin has one serious flaw tho theres a zerling rush which includes all drones -> slipping through your zealot and if your zealot is not in a small tunnel he will die very fast -> you lose | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
On February 19 2011 17:11 ToT)KnowMe( wrote: really nice writeup in my opening that wallin has one serious flaw tho theres a zerling rush which includes all drones -> slipping through your zealot and if your zealot is not in a small tunnel he will die very fast -> you lose Yeah, there's this, and the pylon is more exposed. There are weaknesses to both. Thanks for the writeup though! | ||
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AbeToss
United States60 Posts
On February 19 2011 17:01 eGoTricKShoT wrote: what i meant by making your gateway/cyber core less vulnerable is basically what you have in the second picture of the current standard wall in... you keep the core as far away from the edge of the wall as possible so the roaches cant range it from the low ground, or on certain maps if they can its usually only one roach that can (altho this isnt always true), and get that stalker out as soon as possible to stay out of range of the low ground roaches while still hitting them... they can switch to the gateway which is on the other side of the ramp but they wont kill it before 1-2 stalkers are able to kill off the 3 roaches - i explained the best i could, hope it made sense even without pictures which would make it more clear... with this new wall in that core can be hit by all 3 roaches + any reinforcments that come making it more vulnerable than the standard wall in Why wouldn't they attack the gateway first if it was more vulnerable? The point is that your zealot is the most vulnerable point of your wall in. Here's a replay to demonstrate. Notice that the roaches don't go for the gateway or core. They go for the zealot which causes the Protoss to move it out of the way, ending in a run-by. It takes about 50 seconds for three roaches to kill a cybernetics core. Like you said yourself, a stalker can be out in time to keep them from doing so. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On February 19 2011 17:00 Gooey wrote: I also use a different walloff, although not like this one. The way I wall off allows you to be protected from both cheese and standard ling pokes as usual. Ends up looking like this: + Show Spoiler + You will have the minerals to start your pylon before the zealot pops out to wall off for a standard 14 pool, and also have the 3x3 space to drop a forge to wall off any super early pool (or another gateway if you prefer). The great part is that you can wall off with high HP buildings that buy plenty of time for warpgate to finish. The cyber core is far enough back that it cannot be picked off by roaches, leaving only gateways (or if you need the panic forge) exposed. It can't be baneling busted easily either, even though the pylon seems like a weak point. You can prevent this by just building another one behind it and stuffing more zealots into the little hole (or just use sentries and laugh like I do? idk). I haven't had any problems ever with this wall, and can stop any and all cheese zerg can do. I have tried every combo, and this is absolutely the safest wall for a standard ramp. My worry with that wall-in would be that the Zealot can still be picked off by rushed Roaches. | ||
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AbeToss
United States60 Posts
On February 19 2011 17:10 EnTaroAdun411 wrote: The biggest problem I see with this is how vulnerable the pylon is. Unless you had a second pylon powering the wall in. As a zerg, I'd focus the zealot first then the pylon, or if the zealot is in hold position, I'd take out the pylon. This is why your 16 food pylon goes behind your wall in =]. If you scout an early rush you can wall off as I pointed out. Any other standard zergling pokes shouldn't be an issue with any wall in. | ||
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sawedust
United States506 Posts
Gonna be trying out this new layout in custom games. | ||
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AbeToss
United States60 Posts
On February 19 2011 17:17 Wolf wrote: Yeah, there's this, and the pylon is more exposed. There are weaknesses to both. Thanks for the writeup though! To address both your concerns, this wall in creates a 1 space wide gap for your zealot between your cybernetics core and pylon. Drones cannot move through a zealot (at least in the direction of your main) that is on hold position. If you do scout a 6 pool/drone all in, wall off as I pointed out. As I pointed out your pylon is actually less exposed from the real threat, roaches. And your welcome =]. | ||
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Gooey
United States944 Posts
On February 19 2011 17:21 branflakes14 wrote: My worry with that wall-in would be that the Zealot can still be picked off by rushed Roaches. I don't use a zealot to wall off if i scout the roach rush. I just use another gateway and fully wall my ramp off. You will be 100% fully be able to scout the 3 roach/ling all in, and the timing works out so that if I see it happening, it will be right before the first zealot pops out, and prompts me to either drop a pylon like in the example, or fully wall-off (safest response to this all-in, have tested it multiple times, and I come out fully ahead every time, even when killing my own gateway to move out). It 100% stops this rush every time and 100% of the time lets me stay ahead. | ||
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KnowMe
Germany228 Posts
On February 19 2011 17:26 AbeToss wrote: To address both your concerns, this wall in creates a 1 space wide gap for your zealot between your cybernetics core and pylon. Drones cannot move through a zealot (at least in the direction of your main) that is on hold position. If you do scout a 6 pool/drone all in, wall off as I pointed out. As I pointed out your pylon is actually less exposed from the real threat, roaches. And your welcome =]. yes they can slip through (clicking on minerals) and thats deadly if you have no tunnel | ||
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CrumpetGuvnor
Australia302 Posts
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Supah
708 Posts
I agree this can help from Roaches sniping from the side, but it seems like the Zealot is a ton more exposed to lings this way, instead of 1 or 2 lings it looks like 3 or 4 may be able to hit the Zealot at one time. | ||
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AbeToss
United States60 Posts
On February 19 2011 17:52 Supah wrote: Saw your redirect from the other thread, appreciated. I agree this can help from Roaches sniping from the side, but it seems like the Zealot is a ton more exposed to lings this way, instead of 1 or 2 lings it looks like 3 or 4 may be able to hit the Zealot at one time. This got me worried for a second. Did bit of testing and only 1-2 zerglings can attack the zealot if he is tucked back between the cybernetics core and pylon. As a side note, it was kinda interesting to see that either 1 or 2 zerglings would be able to hit a zealot in a number of wall-ins depending on how they approach the zealot and how they clump in front it, which seems somewhat random. It's especially difficult to get 2 attacking a zealot tucked down a corridor, but this isn't always possible to achieve depending on the map/spawning location. | ||
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tarath
United States377 Posts
A significant % of my PvZ losses are to the 3 roach/ling all in, 6 pools, and random speedling all ins so I expect this wall will actually increase my win% by a non-trivial amount. Great thread  | ||
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Snoogle
Canada71 Posts
On February 19 2011 16:50 andrewwiggin wrote: Don't want to be losing my cybernetics core to 3 roaches =/ Stalkers out range roaches. Even if your opponent has high ground vision, you'll be able to get a stalker or two out before Zerg can snipe a cyber or gateway. | ||
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