On February 18 2011 04:50 Snapshot wrote: I produce out of 1 gate in the beginning, constantly. However no sentries unless I detect heavy early aggression. This means nothing but zealots.
I constantly chrono out probes, and I generally expand at the 8:00min mark into 2 base play. 10:00 for storm means out of 2 bases, 6 gates (or less gates with a robo) I can fully produce without a problem and continue to tech to amulet.
i like the early production out of 1 gate while expanding... i still feel like you should be getting out early sentries just to deal with pressure, most of time you tend to be blind early scouting unless you leave a probe outside of their ramp to see if/when they move out, and could slightly be too late to work on getting the sentries. no reason not to get them jsut to have incase, plus since their energy compounds over time it's better to get them earlier than late, so you can have more forceifelds with less sentries! I'd definitly check out this game betwene Axslav vs dde in the recent V by complexity
although axslav doesn't quite do the 1gate expo you were thinking of, really shows how those sentries can be critical early game while working up to high templar, since high templar are pretty difficult to get against any type of aggression... really allows you to force them to rebuild units instead of comfortable building scvs and teching.
Thank you very much for the replay currently my first sentry comes out at 6mins, first zealot 5:25. I find this to be adequate against a standard push timing however anything early can be scary. I am very aware of how important sentries are in the early game, especially against early (5min) pressure. However when they do not push you at the 5 min mark, and you have that sentry, then they come out 7 minutes with a larger army; you will not have leg speed nor the army size needed to fend out the standard 3rax 7 minute timing. This is why it is usually better to skip a 5 minute or 4 minute sentry, and wait unto just after leg speed.
A quick recap of the video for people not watching- this is not a tech straight to HT build. This is a tech to legs for offense - then expand while teching to HT - build. It is to allow the use of the unit earlier in the midgame. I know my post is a bit difficult to read through, however I swear I tried my best to explain it all haha.
Edit* thanks for watching the reaplys! I know this isn't the most solid build in the world. I just feel it is an extremely fun way to play PvT and it really isn't tough to feel out a banshee rush. All marines, two early gas. The best they can do is 7:20, and even then you would be able to rush their base before they even get that out.
I agree early pressure is extremely difficult with this build, which is why it needs to be scouted. The early aggression against me was right as my cyber core finished. At that point there was nothing different than a standard 4 gate so I don't understand how it was the builds fault? The only difference at that point was a 13 gas which tends to be a bit earlier than normal.
A 3 rax build can often start with the concussion shell 1 marauder 2 marine poke. That poke will literally kill you every time you try this build. In fact, the 3 rax build is not the only build that can use that marauder poke; a 1 rax expand can do it as well.
In PvT you cannot tech so fast to HT because there is no auxiliary tech that will let you scout. One base stargate builds work because you can aggressively push a Terran, or use a Phoenix to scout(usually for banshees). One base robo builds likewise work because they immediately give you observer tech, immortal tech, AND half of the requirement for colossi.
Tech and costs after cyber core:
This build=Twilight plus archives plus legs and storm research. 700 minerals 750 gas. No detection, no scouting, no units. Add one HT for one storm for total 750/900. Without legs 550/700.
Robo build for immortals: robo, observer, immortal. 475 minerals 275 gas. Detection and scouting ability, one immortal for marauders both available.
Robo build for one base colossus: robo, observer, bay, colossus. Late lance tech. 775 minerals 575 gas, scouting and detection, one colossus out. With ETL: 975/775.
Stargate build, Phoenix into robo, observer: 525 minerals, 425 gas. Two scouting units, detection, available voidray and immortal tech.
Stargate build, void ray: 400 minerals 300 gas, scout and harass unit, no detection.
You see why this build isn't good now? You cannot support HTs off one base because they are just too expensive. It's like going for colossi with extended thermal on one base, except with no observer and no permanent unit. Even excellent storms won't save you because Stim will allow your opponent to just stay out of them and kill you.
I would strongly suggest that you try two base HT builds. They are much more robust because they give you scouting and detection options and lots of money for gateway units during the vulnerable tech phase.
The biggest issue with this build is that Zealot legs kinda suck early game against Terran. Concussive shells completely nullify this upgrade because it doesn't matter if the zealots charge, they can't hit because of no stalkers.
I understand that you scout to see what is coming, but what if you scout 2mara 1mari and 6-10 scvs rushing you? GG out? There isn't much else you can do besides sac probes and get way too far behind for your own good.
Try 1gate FE into double forge HT. Much safer because you have time to get some sentries to FF and a few Stalkers to DPS behind your zealots. The double forge ups will make your smaller unit comp more viable while the HT tech comes out.
Also, to properly support 6+ gates of HT you really need 6 mining geysers...
On February 18 2011 05:13 wherebugsgo wrote: A 3 rax build can often start with the concussion shell 1 marauder 2 marine poke. That poke will literally kill you every time you try this build. In fact, the 3 rax build is not the only build that can use that marauder poke; a 1 rax expand can do it as well.
In PvT you cannot tech so fast to HT because there is no auxiliary tech that will let you scout. One base stargate builds work because you can aggressively push a Terran, or use a Phoenix to scout(usually for banshees). One base robo builds likewise work because they immediately give you observer tech, immortal tech, AND half of the requirement for colossi.
Tech and costs after cyber core:
This build=Twilight plus archives plus legs and storm research. 700 minerals 750 gas. No detection, no scouting, no units. Add one HT for one storm for total 750/900. Without legs 550/700.
Robo build for immortals: robo, observer, immortal. 475 minerals 275 gas. Detection and scouting ability, one immortal for marauders both available.
Robo build for one base colossus: robo, observer, bay, colossus. Late lance tech. 775 minerals 575 gas, scouting and detection, one colossus out. With ETL: 975/775.
Stargate build, Phoenix into robo, observer: 525 minerals, 425 gas. Two scouting units, detection, available voidray and immortal tech.
Stargate build, void ray: 400 minerals 300 gas, scout and harass unit, no detection.
You see why this build isn't good now? You cannot support HTs off one base because they are just too expensive. It's like going for colossi with extended thermal on one base, except with no observer and no permanent unit. Even excellent storms won't save you because Stim will allow your opponent to just stay out of them and kill you.
I would strongly suggest that you try two base HT builds. They are much more robust because they give you scouting and detection options and lots of money for gateway units during the vulnerable tech phase.
Thank you this is exactly what I needed to know. I've actually never seen this, or had it happen to me before. In that case I completely agree, as I believe at this moment I will only have a single sentry to block the ramp with ~1 FF.
I really hoped to just provide something other than a standard build. I'm going to continue with this so I can submit some more accurate replays, and specifically am right now going to see about working around an extremely early 2 mara / marine push with conc and even without. This was a scenario I admit I overlooked, especially on short distance maps.
I just hope you don't simply write this out it is very fun to play none the less as having a free robo open to produce units other than the colossus really gives you a lot of opportunity. Also, sorry as I tried making this as clear as possible I am realizing this may have been a bit more confusing than intended xD
On February 18 2011 04:55 iamke55 wrote: This doesn't make any sense. Charge and HT are both late-game techs, not to be touched until 6 gas.
Now now that's an exaggeration, 200/200, that's like a sentry and a probe less, I'd pay that to make each of my zealots like twice as strong.
You can also 4gate chargelot all-in by the way, this build is pretty viable because a lot of people assume you dt rush them.
By the way:
this is how you tech to ht (note how he got charge before storms), you first harass to keep them from pushing. ht and charge of four gas, I doubt he would have even died of bratok pushed out sooner (not to mention that bratok would lose a lot of scv's)
On February 18 2011 05:19 .kv wrote: With Khaydarin Amulet being removed (rumor by dayvie on Minigun's stream), would a HT bo be more accessible like this one?
Yeah. The thing about the 2 marine 1 marauder poke is that the Terran can do it with ANY build. All it takes is a barracks and a tech lab. The two marines are made first, then the tech lab and marauder+shells concurrently. When it hits most normal builds have 1 Zealot and 1 other unit, either a stalker or sentry, with the third unit like 75% done. If you mismicro even with 3 units, you can die if the Terran decides to follow up with the rush.
The build I use for HT before colossus in PvT involves a 1 gate or 3 gate expand into simultaneous robo/twilight. The observer is priority one, and I skimp on the sentries to get the necessary gas; usually instead of 6 I'll have 3-4, and sentry as the second unit.
During this, it's constant chronoed probe production and if I scout a rush, chrono the gates and an immortal. If not, after the twilight I dump an archive and power 3 more gates to get 6 gate production while teching. Then basically I'll take my third and add the robo bay for colossi if the Terran is passive, and then push on 3 bases. If he is not passive I'll go for a storm drop and use the robo bay for observer and warp prism speed first.
Just once more I'd like to say you generally don't get HTs immediately, more of a zealot / sentry focused build (for many confused on how I hold a 7:00 or 6:00 push). Also it is plausible to chrono out a stalker, and you can to deny scouting. This gives you the normal unit comp, however you can skip these for a much stronger 7minute army. The leg speed will be painful to be missing at this point however if they poked with three units, assuming you killed them, they will have 3 less units at that point. This means leg speed is not as essential. The reason I tech to leg speed is so I can be extremely offensive with as few zealots as possible throughout the early-midgame. This allows me to safely tech to HT while expanding onto a second base.
Pokebunny, Im going to sleep a little bit. I've been up since 3am working on this post xD I didn't want it to seem illegible. Will you be on around 6 or 7 EST? I'd really like to try this out against someone who is familiar with a 2 mar / 1 mara poke. As well as just better players in general, I've tried this build a lot lately but at my level the inconsistencies make it extremely hard to provide any real proof :| even to myself! I have doubts about the build as well, its just I feel as if it is a viable build. Wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong! Just would love to be able to achieve it.
On February 18 2011 05:27 Pokebunny wrote: Msg me on bnet VTPokebunny.787 when I get home in about 45 min. Want to play against this.
u will win of course, this strat is not viable vs 2marines + 1marauder concusive shell, this maybe could work on new maps because they will be largest than actual maps
I used to play this build when I was in high bronze. At your silver level it works, when terrans actually know what's up, and keep their scv in your base for a little while, you will not survive. Cloaked banshees because you don't have detection will rip you apart as it did to me many times. Unless you are PERFECT with your forcefields, you will not survive the early game, and that is even with a pressure, not a kill attack. I used to use it, but I quickly found that it is not viable. Now, going for a 1 gate fe, or 2 or 3 gate expansion play while adding 2 forges for double upgrades that REALLY help your units at the beginning of the game, while going sentry zealot into legspeed off two bases and templar off of 3 are plausible, but this isn't.
You put a lot of effort into this guide, it was very well written. Unfortunately, the strategy itself is not very sound. I don't want to repeat everything that everyone has mentioned before me, but here are what I think are a few key things:
What doesn't work about this build: - Very few units early on, susceptible to any sort of early aggression - HT on 1 base is hard to afford. Even if you manage to get out 2 HT with storm in time for an attack or defense, that's only 2 storms and if you miss 1 or he dodges well, you're still in trouble - No robo means no way to scout. If you don't see a lot of marauders you basically are forced into investing gas into a robo + obs just in case he goes banshee, which slows down the HT tech even more
What does work: - Charge! I don't know why so many people are bashing charge, it's actually a really good upgrade and you don't need to wait until late game to get it.
Suggestions: - Try 1 gate FE into council + forge for upgrades. Follow it up with templar archives, but don't rush it. You can actually forgo the robo as well if you place 1 cannon in each mineral line, which will give you enough time to get a robo in case there are cloaked banshees.
I've messed around with dt and ht builds quite a bit in PvT. Early HT builds are very risky as you depend on a VERY few HT's and VERY few storms to combat the Terran bio ball. PvT is nowhere near my forte, but using 3 gate robo seems to be the most solid way to transition into any build in PvT. Firstly there is really no way to safely tech to HT's and to have a proper early defense. Even rushing to them, any competent Terran player will have some type of starport tech, either banshee or medivac. Or they will have ghosts and if they emp your hts you lose period. By the point in the game where you have storm they will have a rather large army, and if you havent expanded good luck trying. Rushing to HT's is an all around bad idea if you ask me. The best case senario is pushing once your hts pop out and feedbacking the Terrans medivacs. Any decent HT build needs 2 bases or you just do not have enough gas to support HT's and other gateway units. Pairing an HT build with a 1 gate FE is a little better, but you need to get a forge to have detection. If you do an HT build after a 3 gate robo expand then we're really talking. for two reasons. Firstly you have observers and you can really see what the terran is doing. Secondly the Terran will scout you and will see what your doing. They will think your going for a robo build and most likely commit some amount of time and resources to vikings which will do nothing against your HT's. By this point you will also have the proper economy to support producing enough HT's to actually put the game in your favor. Rushing to HT's is a fools pursuit at any high level play, but its def cool your thinking outside the box keep it up.
On February 18 2011 05:19 .kv wrote: With Khaydarin Amulet being removed (rumor by dayvie on Minigun's stream), would a HT bo be more accessible like this one?
They're nerfing HT's? If they want to nerf something they should look at the Colossus first O.o But if they do both it's gonna hurt P alot.
On February 18 2011 05:19 .kv wrote: With Khaydarin Amulet being removed (rumor by dayvie on Minigun's stream), would a HT bo be more accessible like this one?
They're nerfing HT's? If they want to nerf something they should look at the Colossus first O.o But if they do both it's gonna hurt P alot.
If they're removing the amulet they'll probably just make HTs start off with 75 energy?
On February 18 2011 05:19 .kv wrote: With Khaydarin Amulet being removed (rumor by dayvie on Minigun's stream), would a HT bo be more accessible like this one?
They're nerfing HT's? If they want to nerf something they should look at the Colossus first O.o But if they do both it's gonna hurt P alot.
If they're removing the amulet they'll probably just make HTs start off with 75 energy?
Not really, if you look at the log, it's pretty clear kim thinks that 'storm warp-ins' are too powerful.
It's not high templar, or storm that are considered too powerful, but the fact that they can storm where they spawn, and spawn pretty much where-ever they want.
What I think a major problem overall is is the 5 second warpin time, 10 seconds would solve a looot of problems at once.
ht's starting with 75 energy would be completely overpowered, the point at this point is that you have to already warp them in when you research storm. If you could just research storm and then warp then in whenever you needed them for instant storm ...
there is something to be said about kim's logic though, you can warp them in at about any place you want for an instant storm, or even two storms and then an archon if you have the gas to spare. The point is that it takes storm drops out as well.
That would be great for you Snapshot if you are able to play against Pokebunny; he is a very high level player, so don't miss that opportunity. It's hard to experience high level play through a replay, and typically to play these players you have to join tournaments and do really well to get to them.
As a P player, I will tell you that I don't think it's too viable, but I won't tell you not to do it. You will find through the process of coming up with your own builds the intricacies of unit synergy, special timings, and resource management so there's no way I would keep that from you. Usually when I think of what would be viable or not, I am thinking about how my ladder games have gone and how particular units would have worked better in particular situations. That is to say when I think of a build order, I don't think, "hey let's do zealots and carriers," but rather "hey, when it gets late game against Zerg that has gone ground, wouldn't Immortal/Templar work better than Colossus/Templar?" You will get a good idea of the many things in the Terran's bag that they will pull out after they scout your base and see what you have.
On the other hand, at the level you play at players don't typically react to things they see their opponents doing, so this kind of rush could be really successful, so try it as long as it continues to work!
One thing that I would suggest however, is to change the timings a little bit, meaning make it: 9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 17 Cyber 17 Gas
The reason for this change is that I noticed that after the cyber core you said that we could transition to a normal build if you suspect banshees, but I don't know a normal build at 2700+ Masters that starts with 9P 12Gate 13Gas 16Cyber... My timings would be off and my economy would be slightly behind!
EPT
currently my first sentry comes out at 6mins, first zealot 5:25. I find this to be adequate against a standard push timing however anything early can be scary. I am very aware of how important sentries are in the early game, especially against early (5min) pressure. However when they do not push you at the 5 min mark, and you have that sentry, then they come out 7 minutes with a larger army; you will not have leg speed nor the army size needed to fend out the standard 3rax 7 minute timing. This is why it is usually better to skip a 5 minute or 4 minute sentry, and wait unto just after leg speed.
