The Welcome Hello everyone! I'm Snapshot, an avid theorycrafter and explorer. I really love coming up with new ways to play games, and I really believe I have stumbled upon (through many many many hours of extensive testing, and order building) a very effective HT-into robo build. I have created a video explaining everything found below, as well as examples of how this build works, and when you need to change things. This is a very fluid build and really allows for a lot of decision making based on what the opposing T is doing, before they even get there (or to your base!) I wasn't sure whether or not to put the [G] tag in the title however before any mods get angry please note I have put an extreme amount of playtesting into this build and truly believe it to be solid. However I am only silver so my opponents are generally rough around the edges. This is why I am posting this build, I'd love for some very high level players to test it out and see how they like it!
This is the post, only in a convenient video format. Just about 10 minutes long. I highly suggest watching this, as I think I speak better than I write!
What is this build? This is a build focused on advancing tech and defending early pressure. Then later, it is a harass and anti-harass build that is fluid because of many warpgates and limited reliability (in the early stages) on the robo. Early game this means lots of sentries and zealots; few if any stalkers. By the 10 minute mark however there will be more high templar then you know what to do with.
Also this is made specifically to hard counter the 3rax push, as well as almost any bio play.
-Terran 3 rax timing push means no tech, so if you can hold it off you are at an advantage. Any bio play will be significantly weaker against this build.
-This build allows an often hard to reach tech to a great unit (the high templar), made from the humble gateway allowing for warp-ins. Free the robo for immortals rather than faster colossus, with no air targetable unit-no need to worry about air.
-Actively deny and deflect drops, while successfully pulling off your own. (Read-before Terran gets Anti-Air, thus making it tougher for them to get it, and delaying the AA or at the least forcing turrets) Very early HT drops (come on, you know you want to!)
-8:00min-ish expand that is protected by your tech heavier army. Every unit counts, as time goes on the investment into leg speed pays for itself more and more. Early investment means maximum benefit. Same for templar archives, and storm. Exploiting this benefit to your advantage is a must.
This is not a rush build, to a degree, as at any moment you can safely switch out if they come to attack.
9 pylon (scout) (chrono on nex) 12 Gateway 13 Gas 16 Cyber Core ****** 16 Gas 19 Twilight Council 19 Warp gate Leg Spead Sentry 2 more gates Archives and storm ASAP ******At this point you can opt to switch out of the build, if you think they are rushing to banshees drop a robo and 2 gates.
If needed after the core pops you can chrono out a stalker for defense, however the chrono will be much better spent on probe production. Also a stalker will delay legs from 6:48 to about 7:10 as you will not have gas for the legs (200/200)
If you believe the opponent is going a bio heavy comp- or -fast expanding this is a great time. However, any kind of 2rax rush will be difficult to fend off, and if one is scouted your best bet is to dropp 2 gates and start making stalkers / sentries.
Best thing to see is one or no gas, and no hint towards 2 rax early aggression. Also heavy tech (like banshees) means limited defense and a weak early stage opponent (if you play this build well there is no reason to get banshee rushed as long as you scout a hint of it.)
This build is a bad idea against an opposing Terran rush build, as you will not have very much in the beginning. You can switch out of this, however you will be slightly delayed so scouting his push is an absolute must. On average about 20 seconds of forewarning is the best, however more likely 10 should be enough to start getting precautions in action. (Read-mass sentries to block ramp)
You've spotted the Terran going for bio-play, good! If tanks are mixed in, opt for a couple of stalkers and make sure you have at least 2-3 sentries. As you won't have HTs for a while you must ensure your comp is good compared to theirs.
Remember you are playing slightly greedy teching leg speed for zealots, then going for templar archives. Going straight for archives is practically suicide. Alternatively you can go for blink play which may be more fluid moving, however stalkers walk much faster than HTs, so the army splits very very fast. Also, the zealots are really there to block the Terran from moving freely with his units as a zealot with leg surround is hard to move out of-followed by a suicide storm will ensure max DPS against Terran units (this will damage your zealots, but because this build is so lean you will have no problem doing so). Initially combine your HTs into archons as you pop storm (lacking that initial 25 energy it is very unlikely they will get more than one storm off).
Scout. Scout. Scout. Then scout some more. You should keep a probe outside of their base just running up the ramp to see what they have. You also want one there to see when and if they move out, whether they expo, and when they are at your front step.
If you are getting a bad feeling, cannot break their ramp, and think they may be going tech to cloak, a robo is not only a good idea but can also be supported with 3 gates churning out sentries and occasional HTs. This will allow your HTs to have enough energy later for 1 storm and 1 feedback which is extremely crucial for drop denial.
If they are going a tech heavy route then your best bet is to start moving out about 15 seconds before leg speed is done. This will allow you to be at their base, fighting the smallest amount of marines possible. If they are bunkered this will be just as easy, make sure to use GS. Remember you must punish them now and try to delay any tech by forcing more marines or marauders.
Your storm tech will be finishing around the 10:00 minute mark, with an expansion at around the 7:00-8:00 minute mark. This means your HTs will be kicking into full attack, while being able to immediately tech to colossus. This makes for a devastating ground army against a bio Terran, or even mixed unit comp Terran (feedback is amazing against many units).
This becomes more difficult against ghost play, however that is why immortals and colossus supplements are needed. as the HTs are mostly for drops and denying drops.
After researching storm, your robo should start pumping out 3-4 observers, then start on immortals as this is most likely the time you will be able to do so.
Denying Drops and the HT mobility theory
As mobility is an essential part of this build you must be constantly dropping, and denying drops. 1 stalker and 1 ht can outright kill a spotted medivac. Since you got your HTs very early you can feedback, then snipe the medivac with your stalker. You will probably not outright kill the medivac with the feedback however it will most likely be very low. If not your HT should have enough for storm right after anyway.
Your army is extremely mobile, so much so that a warp prism will allow insane amounts of harass. If you expanded to 6 warpgates and 1 robo-colossus you can place 4 HT in the prism, and warp in 6 additional units to really get insane amounts of damage done. Warping in 6 sentries will allow you to completely forcefield the mineral line and drop storms. The sentries will be a huge loss however recovering that many scvs will be extremely difficult. It is the highest priority to keep your HTs alive, each one can eventually recover their energy or be morphed into archons. This is a tricky or, archons for a larger mech play (absorbs damage great, while storm does less) ; keep the HTs for a heavier bio play.
Mid-Late Game Tactics After pushing out and securing your natural, you should be teching towards colossus immediately. This will ensure your tech advantage assuming your opponent stays bio. A heavier mech play means forgo the colossus for more immortals and delaying that tech until you can successfully stave off their aggression. Remember, they must have gone MMM in the beginning for you to be choosing this build, so that means any significant tech change (adding more factories) will be delaying them allowing you to take another base.
Always deny their expos, often a hidden expo will be risked as anything else will be easy for you to completely shut down (outside of their natural) keeping them on 2 base is the point of this build, and punishing them every time they expand, or tech.
Constant harass is a must, warp prisms 2 at a time, even random tech to DTs so that you can snipe units here and there as well as force turrets so they do not have to waste so many scans.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140794-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple Replay 1: I really have no clue what this player was doing, I think he thought I was going to DT rush him and freaked out. One benefit about the build I guess. I'm not sure exactly what happens, but I think it shows nicely that some zealots with leg speed are quite good at rushing in.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140799-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis Replay 2: More on the execution and denial of a (very hard ai) mech focused army. The siege tank is in decent positioning, and a second one comes quickly. I really believe this scenario works in my favor because I have more time to warp in units and the splash is dealt almost instantly to the Terran's units as much as my own. I believe I lose this one, however I was only practicing the build in this, not planning on continuing after their first push.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140795-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau Replay 3: This is a great example as to a marauder 2 rax push. After he fails to kill me off because of my early scouting it, I am able to drop 2 gateways and have warp gate finish just in time to stop any further aggression of his. I end up winning because of my significant lead of harvesters.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140787-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war Replay 4: This is actually the best match I've had with this build. Normally things will happen where I either switch out of the build (they are going too heavy mech) or I am just not being matched with even opponents. This Terran fast expands off of 1 rax into a 2 rax build. I really think there wasn't much they could have done to better their chances of holding longer.
I would love to see what higher level players say about this, I am sure that as you move up this becomes less and less viable; however I must say at my level I really don't see many weak spots when you have scouted correctly. Any fast build counters this so just blindly playing this build will get you many losses. So far, the worst case scenario I have seen is that I have no choice but to allow the scout to see me drop the council. This could be prevented with a zealot chrono-ed out and a partial wall off however. Once again, if you scout well this build is outstanding.
When not scouted, this build really seems to shine since it can be turned from a tech oriented build to an attack oriented build. Skip the fast archive for another gate / earlier robo and you can really put serious pressure on the opponent with prisms and leg speed zealots.
And the final kicker of all of this? If it is scouted, it really looks a lot like a DT rush. I've seen a couple of opponents opt for fast turrets, delaying them significantly. 2 turrets alone can offset marine production enough to take the game with the first push (more so from a tech oriented Terran)
One last major note- please realize that zealots with leg speed are a lot like zerglings, they need a full surround to be put to best use. Engaging on your ramp is stupid, allow the Terran to come up all the way (you need to keep all buildings away from your ramp) this way you have the ability to still cut off their troops with a FF, but now you can get a surround.
I was considering switching to Toss basically because of the ideas you described. High Templars are awesome. A playstyle of trying to tech to HT while holding off pressure would be so epic in terms of connection to lore, too..
If you watch the replays you will see opportune times to create attack units, and in fact zealots start popping out around the same time you start leg speed. You are able to make attack units if you need, however every gas based unit you make will delay all of your gas based research. It is up to you to decide if a threat is imminent or not
I.E. 1 stalker will delay legs ~15-20 seconds. One Sentry by ~30-40 seconds. If you feel the sentry is more valuable than of course, pop out a sentry. However the upgrade really does take top priority as this will let you defend most pressure at the 6:50-7:00min mark.
This isn't 1base Ht and you can produce out of the three warp gates without skipping cycles. This is 3 gate zealot with legs, into HT. You then take an immediate expansion while pushing.
Edit**
-I do defend these pushes in my replays. Please watch them. You don't stick to this build if you can't live, as I said scouting is important.
On paper it doesn't seem like this will work, try it out. You will have more than enough resources coming in to achieve each point of tech as well as units. At exactly the 7:00 mark you can sustain full production of zealots and sentries while teching to High Templar.
Any earlier aggression you take care of. Switch out into 3 gate stalker / zealot. I explain all of this in the post.
Nice post format, it was very easy to read and it didn't make me want to rip my eyes out =D
More on topic, I don't feel like goign to HTs so fast is very safe. Even if you can get storm out at the 10 minute mark ish, you'd still need to get the amulet upgrade for the HT to truly shine. Teching so hard on one base is pretty rough. This is especially true with Protoss, because we need sentries to keep us safe from early pressure for the most part.
When do you typically expand with this build? I don't know if you really have enough gas one one base to pump HTs. Leg speed is also one the most expensive upgrades in the game. 200/200 for leg speed, 150/100 for the Twilight Council, 150/200 for the Archives, 200/200 for storm, and 150/150 for Amulet. This much invested into tech so early is pretty hard for Protoss to hold, since we need lots of sentries for forcefielding ramps.
Also, just a side note, but in PvT, there's no need to get your gate and gas so early. You can actually make your gate on 13/14 and gas on 15. This way you don't cut probes in the beginning.
Do you constantly make probes/zealots/sentries while teching?
I produce out of 1 gate in the beginning, constantly. However no sentries unless I detect heavy early aggression. This means nothing but zealots.
I constantly chrono out probes, and I generally expand at the 8:00min mark into 2 base play. 10:00 for storm means out of 2 bases, 6 gates (or less gates with a robo) I can fully produce without a problem and continue to tech to amulet.
Also I'd like to point out that I explicitly state that this is a build you start with, but aren't forced to continue. You can easily switch into 3 gates as opposed to teching up. All of these situations happen in my replays so again, please watch them! :D
If you read the entire post, all of these comments have been answered already
Edit** About the timings on gate / gas-
They are actually needed for the timing pushes of Terrans. This way you have the proper minerals and gas amounts for the tech needed.
oh god.... i need to find more hands to make an epic face palm.... are fucking serious? leg speed.... OH GOD,....
ok lets be serious here: 1/ legspeed? this isnt beta phase 1... 2/ scout? WTF DO YOU SCOUT WITH... probe infornt of their base... make me laugh... is this platnium? 3/lets me repeat what u said there: you go storm into ROBO? REALLY? you REALLY get a ROBO AFTER storm?.... wowowowow
im sorry but i cant wait to here incontrol jokes on this
This doesn't make any sense. Charge and HT are both late-game techs, not to be touched until 6 gas. There is no logical progression of tech here, you're just rushing for high tech before you can afford it the same way a newb rushes for carriers on 1 base. Looks like you have an automatic loss against any kind of early pressure, any kind of 9 minute timing, and cloaked banshee.
Please read my post, this build is designed to fend off the 7 minute timing push of 3 rax.
The max unit count a Terran could have at this time, will be easily fended off. If they delay into tanks, you have that many more warp cycles to prepare.
I'm sure given the right opponent (most passive opponent ever) it could work I suppose.. but that's true of anything.
You just said it's not 1 base HT, but that you get HT and then expand while pushing lol.. sounds like you get HT on 1 base then? Anyway.. it just doesn't really work. For one, because you won't have the defense to hold off an early push.. and good players will push you early when they see twilight at 19!
Plus.. even if we pretend that they don't attack. They're getting tons of scouting info bc of the lack of defense and have an idea of what you're doing.. so why not just throw down ghost academy?
I tried something similar where I'd get zealots/archons (no gas for sentries on top of that) to hold off early pressure and then start storm after I expand, but frankly that didn't work either. Plus it's not really necessary when you can open in the safe way 2gate/robo and then tech to HT later if you so desire..
On February 18 2011 04:50 Snapshot wrote: I produce out of 1 gate in the beginning, constantly. However no sentries unless I detect heavy early aggression. This means nothing but zealots.
I constantly chrono out probes, and I generally expand at the 8:00min mark into 2 base play. 10:00 for storm means out of 2 bases, 6 gates (or less gates with a robo) I can fully produce without a problem and continue to tech to amulet.
i like the early production out of 1 gate while expanding... i still feel like you should be getting out early sentries just to deal with pressure, most of time you tend to be blind early scouting unless you leave a probe outside of their ramp to see if/when they move out, and could slightly be too late to work on getting the sentries. no reason not to get them jsut to have incase, plus since their energy compounds over time it's better to get them earlier than late, so you can have more forceifelds with less sentries! I'd definitly check out this game betwene Axslav vs dde in the recent V by complexity
although axslav doesn't quite do the 1gate expo you were thinking of, really shows how those sentries can be critical early game while working up to high templar, since high templar are pretty difficult to get against any type of aggression... really allows you to force them to rebuild units instead of comfortable building scvs and teching.
Good quality on the post layout and effort put into it....not quite as what I think about the content though.
1 Base HT is very gimmicky. You are teching straight to the highest tier of units for Protoss and it's not even really effective until you get amulet. It's just not something you can afford efficiently. If the Terran does a simple hellion drop, or banshee rush, you are in a world of hurt.
On February 18 2011 04:45 Snapshot wrote: This isn't 1base Ht and you can produce out of the three warp gates without skipping cycles. This is 3 gate zealot with legs, into HT. You then take an immediate expansion while pushing.
It's considered a one base play since you tech so deeply into your tech tree before expanding.
I just don't see how this works in higher levels of play, and like Pokebunny said, you really have no options to deal with a 2 Marauder 1 marine Conc. Shell push.
On February 18 2011 04:54 Snapshot wrote: Also I'd like to point out that I explicitly state that this is a build you start with, but aren't forced to continue. You can easily switch into 3 gates as opposed to teching up. All of these situations happen in my replays so again, please watch them! :D
If you read the entire post, all of these comments have been answered already
Edit** About the timings on gate / gas-
They are actually needed for the timing pushes of Terrans. This way you have the proper minerals and gas amounts for the tech needed.
You seem to be assuming perfect scouting. This build doesn't allow for an observer so the instant their first Marine is out it will be difficult for you to gather any information.
I watched the first replay and your defence was very shaky, the Terran could have easily killed you had he been more aggressive. I also watched the replay on Shakuras and it wasn't convincing either, even with the switch to 3 Gate you barely held and that was with sloppy execution on his part and on one of the longest rush distances in the game. If he had made 1 Marine to chase out your probe before beginning Marauder production then what would you have done? The push would have been slightly delayed but if you followed the same path you did the first game then it wouldn't matter anyway, there is no way you would have enough units out to hold.
And again, no detection. I can't stress that fact enough. Cloaked Banshees are an insta win against this build, at the very least you need to incorporate in a forge.
On February 18 2011 04:50 Snapshot wrote: I produce out of 1 gate in the beginning, constantly. However no sentries unless I detect heavy early aggression. This means nothing but zealots.
I constantly chrono out probes, and I generally expand at the 8:00min mark into 2 base play. 10:00 for storm means out of 2 bases, 6 gates (or less gates with a robo) I can fully produce without a problem and continue to tech to amulet.
i like the early production out of 1 gate while expanding... i still feel like you should be getting out early sentries just to deal with pressure, most of time you tend to be blind early scouting unless you leave a probe outside of their ramp to see if/when they move out, and could slightly be too late to work on getting the sentries. no reason not to get them jsut to have incase, plus since their energy compounds over time it's better to get them earlier than late, so you can have more forceifelds with less sentries! I'd definitly check out this game betwene Axslav vs dde in the recent V by complexity
although axslav doesn't quite do the 1gate expo you were thinking of, really shows how those sentries can be critical early game while working up to high templar, since high templar are pretty difficult to get against any type of aggression... really allows you to force them to rebuild units instead of comfortable building scvs and teching.
Thank you very much for the replay currently my first sentry comes out at 6mins, first zealot 5:25. I find this to be adequate against a standard push timing however anything early can be scary. I am very aware of how important sentries are in the early game, especially against early (5min) pressure. However when they do not push you at the 5 min mark, and you have that sentry, then they come out 7 minutes with a larger army; you will not have leg speed nor the army size needed to fend out the standard 3rax 7 minute timing. This is why it is usually better to skip a 5 minute or 4 minute sentry, and wait unto just after leg speed.
A quick recap of the video for people not watching- this is not a tech straight to HT build. This is a tech to legs for offense - then expand while teching to HT - build. It is to allow the use of the unit earlier in the midgame. I know my post is a bit difficult to read through, however I swear I tried my best to explain it all haha.
Edit* thanks for watching the reaplys! I know this isn't the most solid build in the world. I just feel it is an extremely fun way to play PvT and it really isn't tough to feel out a banshee rush. All marines, two early gas. The best they can do is 7:20, and even then you would be able to rush their base before they even get that out.
I agree early pressure is extremely difficult with this build, which is why it needs to be scouted. The early aggression against me was right as my cyber core finished. At that point there was nothing different than a standard 4 gate so I don't understand how it was the builds fault? The only difference at that point was a 13 gas which tends to be a bit earlier than normal.
A 3 rax build can often start with the concussion shell 1 marauder 2 marine poke. That poke will literally kill you every time you try this build. In fact, the 3 rax build is not the only build that can use that marauder poke; a 1 rax expand can do it as well.
In PvT you cannot tech so fast to HT because there is no auxiliary tech that will let you scout. One base stargate builds work because you can aggressively push a Terran, or use a Phoenix to scout(usually for banshees). One base robo builds likewise work because they immediately give you observer tech, immortal tech, AND half of the requirement for colossi.
Tech and costs after cyber core:
This build=Twilight plus archives plus legs and storm research. 700 minerals 750 gas. No detection, no scouting, no units. Add one HT for one storm for total 750/900. Without legs 550/700.
Robo build for immortals: robo, observer, immortal. 475 minerals 275 gas. Detection and scouting ability, one immortal for marauders both available.
Robo build for one base colossus: robo, observer, bay, colossus. Late lance tech. 775 minerals 575 gas, scouting and detection, one colossus out. With ETL: 975/775.
Stargate build, Phoenix into robo, observer: 525 minerals, 425 gas. Two scouting units, detection, available voidray and immortal tech.
Stargate build, void ray: 400 minerals 300 gas, scout and harass unit, no detection.
You see why this build isn't good now? You cannot support HTs off one base because they are just too expensive. It's like going for colossi with extended thermal on one base, except with no observer and no permanent unit. Even excellent storms won't save you because Stim will allow your opponent to just stay out of them and kill you.
I would strongly suggest that you try two base HT builds. They are much more robust because they give you scouting and detection options and lots of money for gateway units during the vulnerable tech phase.
The biggest issue with this build is that Zealot legs kinda suck early game against Terran. Concussive shells completely nullify this upgrade because it doesn't matter if the zealots charge, they can't hit because of no stalkers.
I understand that you scout to see what is coming, but what if you scout 2mara 1mari and 6-10 scvs rushing you? GG out? There isn't much else you can do besides sac probes and get way too far behind for your own good.
Try 1gate FE into double forge HT. Much safer because you have time to get some sentries to FF and a few Stalkers to DPS behind your zealots. The double forge ups will make your smaller unit comp more viable while the HT tech comes out.
Also, to properly support 6+ gates of HT you really need 6 mining geysers...
On February 18 2011 05:13 wherebugsgo wrote: A 3 rax build can often start with the concussion shell 1 marauder 2 marine poke. That poke will literally kill you every time you try this build. In fact, the 3 rax build is not the only build that can use that marauder poke; a 1 rax expand can do it as well.
In PvT you cannot tech so fast to HT because there is no auxiliary tech that will let you scout. One base stargate builds work because you can aggressively push a Terran, or use a Phoenix to scout(usually for banshees). One base robo builds likewise work because they immediately give you observer tech, immortal tech, AND half of the requirement for colossi.
Tech and costs after cyber core:
This build=Twilight plus archives plus legs and storm research. 700 minerals 750 gas. No detection, no scouting, no units. Add one HT for one storm for total 750/900. Without legs 550/700.
Robo build for immortals: robo, observer, immortal. 475 minerals 275 gas. Detection and scouting ability, one immortal for marauders both available.
Robo build for one base colossus: robo, observer, bay, colossus. Late lance tech. 775 minerals 575 gas, scouting and detection, one colossus out. With ETL: 975/775.
Stargate build, Phoenix into robo, observer: 525 minerals, 425 gas. Two scouting units, detection, available voidray and immortal tech.
Stargate build, void ray: 400 minerals 300 gas, scout and harass unit, no detection.
You see why this build isn't good now? You cannot support HTs off one base because they are just too expensive. It's like going for colossi with extended thermal on one base, except with no observer and no permanent unit. Even excellent storms won't save you because Stim will allow your opponent to just stay out of them and kill you.
I would strongly suggest that you try two base HT builds. They are much more robust because they give you scouting and detection options and lots of money for gateway units during the vulnerable tech phase.
Thank you this is exactly what I needed to know. I've actually never seen this, or had it happen to me before. In that case I completely agree, as I believe at this moment I will only have a single sentry to block the ramp with ~1 FF.
I really hoped to just provide something other than a standard build. I'm going to continue with this so I can submit some more accurate replays, and specifically am right now going to see about working around an extremely early 2 mara / marine push with conc and even without. This was a scenario I admit I overlooked, especially on short distance maps.
I just hope you don't simply write this out it is very fun to play none the less as having a free robo open to produce units other than the colossus really gives you a lot of opportunity. Also, sorry as I tried making this as clear as possible I am realizing this may have been a bit more confusing than intended xD
On February 18 2011 04:55 iamke55 wrote: This doesn't make any sense. Charge and HT are both late-game techs, not to be touched until 6 gas.
Now now that's an exaggeration, 200/200, that's like a sentry and a probe less, I'd pay that to make each of my zealots like twice as strong.
You can also 4gate chargelot all-in by the way, this build is pretty viable because a lot of people assume you dt rush them.
By the way:
this is how you tech to ht (note how he got charge before storms), you first harass to keep them from pushing. ht and charge of four gas, I doubt he would have even died of bratok pushed out sooner (not to mention that bratok would lose a lot of scv's)
On February 18 2011 05:19 .kv wrote: With Khaydarin Amulet being removed (rumor by dayvie on Minigun's stream), would a HT bo be more accessible like this one?
Yeah. The thing about the 2 marine 1 marauder poke is that the Terran can do it with ANY build. All it takes is a barracks and a tech lab. The two marines are made first, then the tech lab and marauder+shells concurrently. When it hits most normal builds have 1 Zealot and 1 other unit, either a stalker or sentry, with the third unit like 75% done. If you mismicro even with 3 units, you can die if the Terran decides to follow up with the rush.
The build I use for HT before colossus in PvT involves a 1 gate or 3 gate expand into simultaneous robo/twilight. The observer is priority one, and I skimp on the sentries to get the necessary gas; usually instead of 6 I'll have 3-4, and sentry as the second unit.
During this, it's constant chronoed probe production and if I scout a rush, chrono the gates and an immortal. If not, after the twilight I dump an archive and power 3 more gates to get 6 gate production while teching. Then basically I'll take my third and add the robo bay for colossi if the Terran is passive, and then push on 3 bases. If he is not passive I'll go for a storm drop and use the robo bay for observer and warp prism speed first.
Just once more I'd like to say you generally don't get HTs immediately, more of a zealot / sentry focused build (for many confused on how I hold a 7:00 or 6:00 push). Also it is plausible to chrono out a stalker, and you can to deny scouting. This gives you the normal unit comp, however you can skip these for a much stronger 7minute army. The leg speed will be painful to be missing at this point however if they poked with three units, assuming you killed them, they will have 3 less units at that point. This means leg speed is not as essential. The reason I tech to leg speed is so I can be extremely offensive with as few zealots as possible throughout the early-midgame. This allows me to safely tech to HT while expanding onto a second base.
Pokebunny, Im going to sleep a little bit. I've been up since 3am working on this post xD I didn't want it to seem illegible. Will you be on around 6 or 7 EST? I'd really like to try this out against someone who is familiar with a 2 mar / 1 mara poke. As well as just better players in general, I've tried this build a lot lately but at my level the inconsistencies make it extremely hard to provide any real proof :| even to myself! I have doubts about the build as well, its just I feel as if it is a viable build. Wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong! Just would love to be able to achieve it.
On February 18 2011 05:27 Pokebunny wrote: Msg me on bnet VTPokebunny.787 when I get home in about 45 min. Want to play against this.
u will win of course, this strat is not viable vs 2marines + 1marauder concusive shell, this maybe could work on new maps because they will be largest than actual maps
I used to play this build when I was in high bronze. At your silver level it works, when terrans actually know what's up, and keep their scv in your base for a little while, you will not survive. Cloaked banshees because you don't have detection will rip you apart as it did to me many times. Unless you are PERFECT with your forcefields, you will not survive the early game, and that is even with a pressure, not a kill attack. I used to use it, but I quickly found that it is not viable. Now, going for a 1 gate fe, or 2 or 3 gate expansion play while adding 2 forges for double upgrades that REALLY help your units at the beginning of the game, while going sentry zealot into legspeed off two bases and templar off of 3 are plausible, but this isn't.
You put a lot of effort into this guide, it was very well written. Unfortunately, the strategy itself is not very sound. I don't want to repeat everything that everyone has mentioned before me, but here are what I think are a few key things:
What doesn't work about this build: - Very few units early on, susceptible to any sort of early aggression - HT on 1 base is hard to afford. Even if you manage to get out 2 HT with storm in time for an attack or defense, that's only 2 storms and if you miss 1 or he dodges well, you're still in trouble - No robo means no way to scout. If you don't see a lot of marauders you basically are forced into investing gas into a robo + obs just in case he goes banshee, which slows down the HT tech even more
What does work: - Charge! I don't know why so many people are bashing charge, it's actually a really good upgrade and you don't need to wait until late game to get it.
Suggestions: - Try 1 gate FE into council + forge for upgrades. Follow it up with templar archives, but don't rush it. You can actually forgo the robo as well if you place 1 cannon in each mineral line, which will give you enough time to get a robo in case there are cloaked banshees.
I've messed around with dt and ht builds quite a bit in PvT. Early HT builds are very risky as you depend on a VERY few HT's and VERY few storms to combat the Terran bio ball. PvT is nowhere near my forte, but using 3 gate robo seems to be the most solid way to transition into any build in PvT. Firstly there is really no way to safely tech to HT's and to have a proper early defense. Even rushing to them, any competent Terran player will have some type of starport tech, either banshee or medivac. Or they will have ghosts and if they emp your hts you lose period. By the point in the game where you have storm they will have a rather large army, and if you havent expanded good luck trying. Rushing to HT's is an all around bad idea if you ask me. The best case senario is pushing once your hts pop out and feedbacking the Terrans medivacs. Any decent HT build needs 2 bases or you just do not have enough gas to support HT's and other gateway units. Pairing an HT build with a 1 gate FE is a little better, but you need to get a forge to have detection. If you do an HT build after a 3 gate robo expand then we're really talking. for two reasons. Firstly you have observers and you can really see what the terran is doing. Secondly the Terran will scout you and will see what your doing. They will think your going for a robo build and most likely commit some amount of time and resources to vikings which will do nothing against your HT's. By this point you will also have the proper economy to support producing enough HT's to actually put the game in your favor. Rushing to HT's is a fools pursuit at any high level play, but its def cool your thinking outside the box keep it up.
On February 18 2011 05:19 .kv wrote: With Khaydarin Amulet being removed (rumor by dayvie on Minigun's stream), would a HT bo be more accessible like this one?
They're nerfing HT's? If they want to nerf something they should look at the Colossus first O.o But if they do both it's gonna hurt P alot.
On February 18 2011 05:19 .kv wrote: With Khaydarin Amulet being removed (rumor by dayvie on Minigun's stream), would a HT bo be more accessible like this one?
They're nerfing HT's? If they want to nerf something they should look at the Colossus first O.o But if they do both it's gonna hurt P alot.
If they're removing the amulet they'll probably just make HTs start off with 75 energy?
On February 18 2011 05:19 .kv wrote: With Khaydarin Amulet being removed (rumor by dayvie on Minigun's stream), would a HT bo be more accessible like this one?
They're nerfing HT's? If they want to nerf something they should look at the Colossus first O.o But if they do both it's gonna hurt P alot.
If they're removing the amulet they'll probably just make HTs start off with 75 energy?
Not really, if you look at the log, it's pretty clear kim thinks that 'storm warp-ins' are too powerful.
It's not high templar, or storm that are considered too powerful, but the fact that they can storm where they spawn, and spawn pretty much where-ever they want.
What I think a major problem overall is is the 5 second warpin time, 10 seconds would solve a looot of problems at once.
ht's starting with 75 energy would be completely overpowered, the point at this point is that you have to already warp them in when you research storm. If you could just research storm and then warp then in whenever you needed them for instant storm ...
there is something to be said about kim's logic though, you can warp them in at about any place you want for an instant storm, or even two storms and then an archon if you have the gas to spare. The point is that it takes storm drops out as well.
That would be great for you Snapshot if you are able to play against Pokebunny; he is a very high level player, so don't miss that opportunity. It's hard to experience high level play through a replay, and typically to play these players you have to join tournaments and do really well to get to them.
As a P player, I will tell you that I don't think it's too viable, but I won't tell you not to do it. You will find through the process of coming up with your own builds the intricacies of unit synergy, special timings, and resource management so there's no way I would keep that from you. Usually when I think of what would be viable or not, I am thinking about how my ladder games have gone and how particular units would have worked better in particular situations. That is to say when I think of a build order, I don't think, "hey let's do zealots and carriers," but rather "hey, when it gets late game against Zerg that has gone ground, wouldn't Immortal/Templar work better than Colossus/Templar?" You will get a good idea of the many things in the Terran's bag that they will pull out after they scout your base and see what you have.
On the other hand, at the level you play at players don't typically react to things they see their opponents doing, so this kind of rush could be really successful, so try it as long as it continues to work!
One thing that I would suggest however, is to change the timings a little bit, meaning make it: 9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 17 Cyber 17 Gas
The reason for this change is that I noticed that after the cyber core you said that we could transition to a normal build if you suspect banshees, but I don't know a normal build at 2700+ Masters that starts with 9P 12Gate 13Gas 16Cyber... My timings would be off and my economy would be slightly behind!
- 3 gate expand, get robo soon after for obs scouting - respond to T's build by varying unit composition, chronoboost allocation, and the decision to make immortals - get citadel before 3rd and 4th gases - build DT shrine and add 2 more gates up to 5 - get charge while attacking/containing with DTs - get templar.
this seems like a much better gameplan for getting early-ish storm, since it should be robust against banshee or early rax pressure. getting charge/templar off 1 base before robo just has so little scouting potential and eats so much gas that I think it will fail versus a lot of stuff.
16 cybernetics core WTF I don't think that I would be willing to cut a probe that early. like your trying to rush for high templar with not actual reason, like there are more cost efficient ways of dealing with early terran bio. Also you don't get so dedicated to 1 tech path. Also you wan't to have a good mix of zealot stalker then get a few templar, which makes it a 2 base only kinda tech swap.
This build is interesting, but it's definitely not going to work very well in Master league. I feel like the 3 rax push disappeared altogether when protoss player learned how to use sentries properly. Also, I believe 80% of my PvT games, the terran opts for a fast expansion off of 1 or 2 rax with mm.
This build is gimmicky at best, but I do believe it can be pulled off. It's just kind of a rock paper scissors game, assuming that you somehow hide most of your tech. If he scans your base at all (which he will) he can counter this pretty easily.
The weaknesses of the build are definitely things like cloaked banshee and hellion drop, so maybe adding a gas steal could help a lot. If they're not keen on killing your gas, they're probably going to pressure you and expand. If they start killing the gas right away, sneak your probe back and in and scout to see the build is going to be viable.
Also palanq I'm going to start trying that build. It looks like a play style that would be more of my taste for protoss! Thanks again guys, after all I figured this build could be broken but I just really wanted to try it out and see what could come out of it. If nothing else it taught me a lot about timings of the opponent as when they could have x unit was the most important thing.
I've tried going for obs + HT builds. Although the one really high level player I talked to said it was possible, in my experience even without ghosts MMM will beat you; they just run out of every storm and then fire (and kill) your zealots, always moving more and more away from the HTs, while the chargelots get too far ahead and get slaughtered, any damage done by zealots and the 20 damage a 1sec storm will do gets healed. /repeat x5 and then he'll have an MMM ball too big for you to stop. *sadface*
This wouldn't work against anyone who makes units. For fast PvT High Templar you're probably better off using a double Forge build, as the Twilight Council is required for mass upgrades anyway.
I don't remember the game, and the order of the buildings was different (most notably, later twilight council, not so rushed), but it was in GSL season 1 or 2, where toss went zealot heavy with charge on Blistering (didn't tech into templar but might have been able to by cutting a sentry or some stalkers). Unfortunately terran saw it coming and bunkered up like hell.
I seem to recall the protoss being perfectly safe early game though, but not really having enough units to really threaten the terran, despite the charge.
Hi, wouldn't normally post to put a downer on something but this build will not work against an opponent who is even mildly agressive.
I watched your replay 4. At just under 6 minutes you had 1 zealot and 1 sentry to defend and zealot legs on it's way. I'm not sure if you meant to post a different replay as you didn't even build a templar archives in this game and won it pure through speedlots/sentries.
While you did well to win, had you been against an agressive opponent who actually what most terrans at bronze/silver (your stated level and the level I play at) which is marine spam off 3rax and push up your ramp after stim is completed you would have lost badly.
I would like to see a proper BO to get HTs out in a decent time without being able to be roflstomped at the 1st hint of agression I don't think they're viable off 1 base unless your opponent is good enough to keep running away to let your HTs energy recharge.
At masters league 33% of terrans open cloaked banshee
another 33% have a really streamlined 1/2 base timing all-in which you really need to see the unit comp to have a chance of defending
so I cannot see this build working in the current metagame. Not trying to discredit you; it is great work: just letting you know what is in store so you can prepare
I really don't see this working against equal skilled opponents. If you're going to one base you might as well spring for colo instead because they will, guaranteed, increase your army integrity. ht's can do that, but their warp-in mechanic and high gas really pigeon hole them as a 4gas+ (MINIMUM) tech.
I used to use council/ht tech vs terran almost exclusively off of fast expand, but recently I have been playing much safer with 3 gate robo 6:00 expands with faster colo to be safe and I definitely think this style will net you more wins against equal skilled terrans.
Another issue that has already been brought up is scouting. It's true that protoss NEED a robo to get the obs out, but the obs is by no means a bad thing.. In fact obs are amazing. In a typical pvt I'll have 5 obs out at one time during the mid game to keep an eye out on greedy expansions, attack timing, tech timings, tech switches, army movements, upgrades, production structures, drops. You cannot afford to be in the dark to these things
So really, you are quick teching with no defense to a unit that has 80 hit points and can kill marines if he doesn't have stim and walks them up your ramp
EPT
