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On February 22 2011 06:56 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 03:20 CecilSunkure wrote:On February 22 2011 03:13 Treehead wrote:Also, I am likely the worst player posting in this thread, and this is purely theorycraft (albeit with a very concrete adjustment to the build in a vod - which isn't too hard to do), but can anyone see a reason why this adjustment wouldn't function the same as the current 4-warpgate vs. early robo does? You spend three chronoboosts on stalkers in order for the Stalkers to fulfill their purpose. If you spend this on warpgate instead, the Stalkers cannot fulfill their purpose very well and you can't get out early tech and be safe. Why would you want to do a delayed 4 Gate with this opening, rather than an extremely safe, fast and efficient teching to robo? My point was that if a 4-gating player does this very slightly delayed rush, I don't know if the tech to robo is still "safe".
If you don't know, then go test it out. I don't see how delaying the 4 Gate would help, as currently a fast 4 Gate can't crack this build if this build is done properly. Robo armies gain efficiency over time on a non-linear fashion whereas a gateway army will fall behind over time compared to a robo-centric one. The reason 4 Gate works is because it allows the user's army to be better than anything else for a certain amount of time.
Here is a 4 Gate army's efficiency over time compared to a Robo army. The part where the Gateway army surpasses the robo army is where most people die.
![[image loading]](http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr11/Cecil_Sunkure/Robo_Gateway.png)
Now, take a look at what the 3 Stalker opening does for you. It forces a 4 Gate army to have a slight hiccup that allows you to get your force out without being at risk.
![[image loading]](http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr11/Cecil_Sunkure/Robo_Gateway_3s.png)
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A 3 stalker variation of 4gate is an AWFUL idea because:
-It delays your 4gate up to 45 seconds (!!)
-robo player has defender's advantage, meaning they will always have a higher stalker count than you at any proxy location
This build doesn't scare me in ladder because nobody knows how to do it yet (except for Cecil and Artosis) and I can EASILY sac my zealot and lure their stalkers towards my base while proxying right outside their ramp. When I warpin they have to choose between sending their 2 stalkers (I'm assuming I was able to kill one with my two stalkers) to my base to try and do some damage (which I can just warp 4 zealots in to stop), or send their stalkers ALLLLL the way back to their own base, where they will be fighting a losing battle. This build demands near-perfect stalker control to be consistent vs a competent 4gate, but it's our only consistent option.
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On February 22 2011 07:19 CCalms wrote:
A 3 stalker variation of 4gate is an AWFUL idea because:
-It delays your 4gate up to 45 seconds (!!)
-robo player has defender's advantage, meaning they will always have a higher stalker count than you at any proxy location
I have no idea where you get the idea that 4-warpgates would be delayed by as much as 45 seconds. You can still get in 3 or so CBs on warpgate tech, and you're certainly not waiting on units to finish building once the tech upgrades.
Warpgates imply that this is not necessarily the case. If you have 4, and your opponent has 3 and is building an immortal, I don't see why he'd have more stalkers than you.
On February 22 2011 07:11 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 06:56 Treehead wrote:On February 22 2011 03:20 CecilSunkure wrote:On February 22 2011 03:13 Treehead wrote:Also, I am likely the worst player posting in this thread, and this is purely theorycraft (albeit with a very concrete adjustment to the build in a vod - which isn't too hard to do), but can anyone see a reason why this adjustment wouldn't function the same as the current 4-warpgate vs. early robo does? You spend three chronoboosts on stalkers in order for the Stalkers to fulfill their purpose. If you spend this on warpgate instead, the Stalkers cannot fulfill their purpose very well and you can't get out early tech and be safe. Why would you want to do a delayed 4 Gate with this opening, rather than an extremely safe, fast and efficient teching to robo? My point was that if a 4-gating player does this very slightly delayed rush, I don't know if the tech to robo is still "safe". If you don't know, then go test it out. I don't see how delaying the 4 Gate would help, as currently a fast 4 Gate can't crack this build if this build is done properly. Robo armies gain efficiency over time on a non-linear fashion whereas a gateway army will fall behind over time compared to a robo-centric one. The reason 4 Gate works is because it allows the user's army to be better than anything else for a certain amount of time. Here is a 4 Gate army's efficiency over time compared to a Robo army. The part where the Gateway army surpasses the robo army is where most people die. Now, take a look at what the 3 Stalker opening does for you. It forces a 4 Gate army to have a slight hiccup that allows you to get your force out without being at risk.
What are these graphs based on? Gut feel, or were there calculations involved here? I get that if you can tech safely you should do so, as gateway units aren't nearly as effective lategame, but at what time to the graphs cross - and why is the gateway army lower even before the immortal comes out on your second graph?
I certainly will try it out when I have time. I'm just suggesting something to try if people want to be sure this build is safe. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm certainly not good enough to definitively be able to test these things. You probably are. As I said, feel free to disregard this if you think I'm just wrong. I just was making an observation.
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The graphs are based on personal experience. The point where the graphs cross is where an old robo opening would be able to hold the units from a 4 Gate off. Also, Day9 said something about the power of robo units over time compared to Gateway units here (I think): http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4392915/
The gateway army is lower in the second graph due to the use of the three stalkers, like the OP details about. It should be pretty obvious why; deny proxy pylons and/or kill off initial zealot/stalker/probe.
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On February 22 2011 02:11 kzn wrote:
You wont hit before immortals come out, I think.
I just tried this against an AI. I had 7 stalkers and was still at 100 minerals/200 gas at 6:15. My probe never left my base until I had 3 stalkers. At this point, the Artosis build has 3 stalkers and a sentry and has just become able to warp in units (in the next 10 or so seconds).
If I opened with a 10-gate, I could set this time back to 5:57. Again, a reminder that I am not a terribly high level player, so your timings may vary. Immortals don't hit the stage until around 7 minutes. By that time, I'll have had another warp-in round of zealots.
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stop calling it the artosis build please, especially in the thread created by the person who actually did the work to interpret this build from YongHwa's VOD.
secondly, by the time he has those 3 stalkers and a sentry, he well and truly has defender's advantage. Shortly after the sentry comes out, warpgate finishes, he'll be able to warp in 2 zealots and his immortal will be about to pop.
You can test this endlessly and I guarantee you there is no better way (currently) to hold a 4gate besides 4gating yourself.
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This build hasn't been very effective for me, he just goes zealot heavy when he sees my immortal and I'm fucked. Then it's 3 gates vs 4 since the immortal becomes quite useless if he avoids heavy stalker.
It just doesn't work for me.
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On February 22 2011 17:12 Trizz wrote:
This build hasn't been very effective for me, he just goes zealot heavy when he sees my immortal and I'm fucked. Then it's 3 gates vs 4 since the immortal becomes quite useless if he avoids heavy stalker.
It just doesn't work for me.
Post replays so we can help you out with what you're doing wrong.
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Hi Cecil. Thanks very much for putting this together and making yet another contribution to the TL Protoss. I've been using this as my standard PvP opener for the last 3 or 4 days.
All in all, I like the build. I'd say that I've only lost to 4Gates when my control/micro was questionable. What I do love about this build is that it still stays roughly even with any tech related build.
I did have one question - Have you ever considered a gas steal with this build? I gave it some through and tried it out a couple of times - I usually gas steal between the first and second stalker. My thought is that after the the 4Gate fails, to make it tougher to transition out of 4Gate into Robo or Startech, almost encouraging an expansion with the additional minerals and shortage of gas therefore almost guarenteeing the success of my 2 Colossus timing push.
Perhaps it's not your style to counter with a 1 Base all in and you'd prefer to expand yourself? I get savage pleasure from crushing 4Gaters so I just go for the kill and honestly, there really is not much at all my opponent can do. If they dropped a Robo immediately after they are pushed away their first Colossus should not be out yet and they should have 2 Void Rays at the most, which are easily focused down.
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I'm thinking about which one of these PvP builds gives you a better mid game against 4 gaters, as well as other builds, between the fast 3 stalker build and the 1 gas gate, robo, gate build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430).
The stalker build will let you tech easier with more gas. This seems to be the biggest difference to me. I also feel like the stalker build helps you defend against the 4 gate better than the 1 gas, gate, robo, gate build. But good builds not only need to be able to defend the 4 gate, but also deal with the other protoss builds.
Economy wise, they both seem quite similar as well as having the same production facilities (2 gates and a robo).
Can anyone else point out some pros/cons comparing the two builds?
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I have been doing this build pretty much every pvp I get in. It just is all around a better opener, IF DONE CORRECTLY. The flow of the build is nice too, get 3 stalkers, drop down robo while you take map control, drop down gate. Then it's pretty much observer to see if you are going 2 colossi no lance or lance plus expand.
Trust me, I hated PvP and this build pretty much changed that. I have also been working in going blink stalkers after the robo on 4 player maps. I think tyler does something like this....
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how does this do against adel's FE, and why is it better then kcdc's fast robo? they can both hold off a 4 gate and have other advantages with it?
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adel build is relying on gw units for a long time, robo tech should be better with proper force field usage before getting critical mass.
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Adel's is best used on small maps or close positions meaning that you'll be able to scout it before you fully commit to this build. On larger maps you will have more time to prepare for the early pressure. This build transitions very smoothly into 1 Base Colossus which has an extremely strong timing against any FE build.
I've not read through kcdc's build, but I don't think that anyone said either is better. It will probably come down to what suits your personal style more comfortably.
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On February 23 2011 06:58 gertg wrote:
how does this do against adel's FE, and why is it better then kcdc's fast robo? they can both hold off a 4 gate and have other advantages with it?
Because you get two gas earlier and thus you can tech to Colossus much faster with more Stalkers in the mix too.
KCDC's build is pretty fun though, because you can follow the opponents failed 4WG with a 1base 4gate Chargelot + Immortal drop (ferry your units into their base via Warp Prism :D) if you can get a FF on the ramp you can take out all their gateways in less than 20seconds, and unless they went Sentry heavy, you can just win from shear brute force of chargelots
EDIT:
Oh yeah, and KCDC's build tends to fall apart if they delay their attack and warpin a ton of Zealots instead of Stalkers, unless you were quick at throwing down a gateway during the fight, you end up losing sometimes, usually comes down to micro. My micro isn't that good, so I like this one better.
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On February 23 2011 21:52 Vexu wrote:
adel build is relying on gw units for a long time, robo tech should be better with proper force field usage before getting critical mass.
yes, but on small maps, adel has a fast 4 zealot push, are the stalkers out in time to prevent them from doing to much damage?
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On February 23 2011 22:01 gertg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 21:52 Vexu wrote:
adel build is relying on gw units for a long time, robo tech should be better with proper force field usage before getting critical mass. yes, but on small maps, adel has a fast 4 zealot push, are the stalkers out in time to prevent them from doing to much damage?
People know how to stop that now a days :S, you just throw down a faster second gate (usually as soon as you see no gas + 2gateways), defend with only taking like 2/3 probe losses then continuing with the 4gate, your warpgate tech is so late that you won't be able to hold it off
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On February 22 2011 17:12 Trizz wrote:
This build hasn't been very effective for me, he just goes zealot heavy when he sees my immortal and I'm fucked. Then it's 3 gates vs 4 since the immortal becomes quite useless if he avoids heavy stalker.
It just doesn't work for me.
If you take your single sentry at the ramp and manage to trap a few zealots above, you can kill a few zealots, while you then chrono boost your by now 4 warpgates and mass zealots. That's what I do.
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EPT
