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On February 14 2011 14:47 ZasZ. wrote:
No, I don't think he broke TvT. At my skill level (~3k Diamond) it works fairly well and I've really only lost to players that I could tell were better than me and outplayed me with Tank/Viking or 1 Rax Expand.
Even if the build evolves to the point where it IS like PvP and both players are forced to do the same build, I'd still prefer it to the alternative, Tank/Viking positional battles, which I can't stand.
But this is coming from a Random player who is about to main Zerg because I've reached my skill cap for Terran/Protoss.
I don't understand when players say they've reach their "skill cap" for terran and/or protoss. Like TLO said that yet he was never winning tournaments and he failed to get Code S with Terran. How can you reach the skill cap for a race and still constantly lose I just fail to grasp this. I don't even think MVP has hit the skill cap for Terran yet.
And personally I prefer positional Tank battles Because that's as close as possible to BW and anything BW is amazing.
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On February 12 2011 12:22 Leaky wrote:
First of all, let me say that I think iEchoic's build is great and I'm glad that people are developing such innovative and effective strategies. However, it seems like since his 2fact/2port build was featured on the Day9 daily, TvT on the North American ladder has transformed overnight from a positional marine/tank/viking game into a hellion-banshee elimination race with both players having free reign over their opponent's mineral line.
What can I do to combat this build effectively? I have tried going straight up marauder/viking and it actually didn't work: the hellions and banshees killed my marauders with incredible ease and my opponent could make more vikings than me because not only was I wasting 25 gas a pop on marauders, but he was periodically killing off a large amount of my scvs.
iEchoic himself said that a thor rush can be dicey to defend with this build, but do I really need to all-in to win vs this? Has anyone found a solid way to play vs this build that can safely go into the mid and late game?
i swear to god make 2 starport reactor and make pure vikings, you'll win with ease, oh, and make bunkers at strategic points in your base near workers to stop hellions either from getting lots of kills, or getting behind at all, bunkers also deal with medivacs well especially if u got the upgrade for 6 in it. it may sound nooby, but mass viking is the only way to beat this strategy effectivlely and cost efficiently. you can also rape his economy by splitting up your masses of vikings and dropping 4-6 at each of his expos to kill workers simotaneously
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On February 14 2011 14:21 gfever wrote:
lol i found this build funny,
3000+ master TvT game where i first never read this thread b4 on xel naga, he did this build, I didn't even know wtf he was doing. I thought he was noob, went the regular 1 rax into expo followed by 3 more rax and just pushed him and did some micro spread when he just got out his first banshee out. Was so easy to beat. didn't feel threaten at all the entire game. I went back and took a look at it and he excuted it fairly well but with my uber spread he couldn't break me
you guys are giving this build too much credit.
You can't just say this without posting a replay. 1 rax into expo and you won't have anything but a few bio units to defend 2 bases from 4 blue flame helions... it seems odd that you didn't feel threatened at all. Please post the replay if you want people to believe you.
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On February 14 2011 15:00 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 14:47 ZasZ. wrote:
No, I don't think he broke TvT. At my skill level (~3k Diamond) it works fairly well and I've really only lost to players that I could tell were better than me and outplayed me with Tank/Viking or 1 Rax Expand.
Even if the build evolves to the point where it IS like PvP and both players are forced to do the same build, I'd still prefer it to the alternative, Tank/Viking positional battles, which I can't stand.
But this is coming from a Random player who is about to main Zerg because I've reached my skill cap for Terran/Protoss. I don't understand when players say they've reach their "skill cap" for terran and/or protoss. Like TLO said that yet he was never winning tournaments and he failed to get Code S with Terran. How can you reach the skill cap for a race and still constantly lose I just fail to grasp this. I don't even think MVP has hit the skill cap for Terran yet. And personally I prefer positional Tank battles Because that's as close as possible to BW and anything BW is amazing.
While the Races overall Skillcap might be higher, a specific persons Skillcap with either a race, or in the total game, can still be significantly lower. Not everyone can become a Pro Basketball player, even if they would train Basketball the whole day for years. The same with Starcraft. Sure, everyone can get pretty good, but i am sure that most people, even if they would dedicate their whole life to starcraft, would never win any major tournament. And some people might be more predetermined to play good with one race than with another, up to the point when their own specific skillcap with one race, which ould be far lower than the overall skillcap of the race, is not enough to win anything. There is a difference between what is theoretically possible, and what each specific person can achieve, even with absolute dedication.
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On February 14 2011 16:01 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 14:21 gfever wrote:
lol i found this build funny,
3000+ master TvT game where i first never read this thread b4 on xel naga, he did this build, I didn't even know wtf he was doing. I thought he was noob, went the regular 1 rax into expo followed by 3 more rax and just pushed him and did some micro spread when he just got out his first banshee out. Was so easy to beat. didn't feel threaten at all the entire game. I went back and took a look at it and he excuted it fairly well but with my uber spread he couldn't break me
you guys are giving this build too much credit. You can't just say this without posting a replay. 1 rax into expo and you won't have anything but a few bio units to defend 2 bases from 4 blue flame helions... it seems odd that you didn't feel threatened at all. Please post the replay if you want people to believe you.
I completely agree with this. You either played against a shaky version of the build, he didn't do what he was supposed to at specific times, or are outright lying.
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this build won't stay around long, and if it does Marine Tank Viking will still match it. It will go down to control. Sensor Tower usage seems to stomp it for me, but i haven't played anyone who used it properly so i dont know.
Only time will tell.
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On February 12 2011 17:53 Teddimijia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 16:47 nodule wrote:
Sure, the banshee player is putting all their gas into air, but banshees don't give air control. Even if they make loads of vikings, you can go even more vikings than they if you aren't building banshees. Am I missing something? no your not. the idea is that if ur going the 2factory2port u respond to what ur opponent does. the idea being that if ur opponent goes for mass vikings u go mass vikings as well and b/c u have 2ports can get out the vikings faster.
You will never be able to outviking someone who goes 2reactor starport with your standard banshee/hellion build unless you throw down more starports of your own, because of these factors.
You have at least one tech lab.
You are making banshees.
You need to preemptively know that he's making 2x reactor starports if you want to match his viking count.
And if you make to many vikings, he'll have the superior ground force of the marauder to waltz into your base and kill you, but that will be situation dependent. If your viking count beats him, he can snipe your banshee and land his vikings and continue on waltzing into your base with the marauders.
The main point is that if you go to heavy on air control of your own, i.e mass vikings, he'll have a ground force that will beat yours, and if you go to heavy banshee, he will have more vikings that can kill them.
As far as the hellion drop goes, treat it as a standard drop and intercept it. How you do that is up to you. Sensor towers rule for TvT tho. It's not like people weren't dropping in TvTs before this, although it was mainly marine drops against a tank heavy player.
I shall make a disclaimer again that the banshee helion build is a solid build and my way is in no way a hard counter, but a pretty basic way to deal with it.
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Even if you see them with 2fact2port, you will most likely not have 2ports yet, maybe not even 1. It's a come from behind race that you aren't likely to win, especially since you are likely behind 5+ SCVs from the BFHellion drop.
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I've found that marauder/viking beats this.
Banshees are more expensive than marauders, and hellions suck against them. So they will have to stop producing banshees in order to keep up with my viking count, giving my marauders time to kill him.
He cant keep up in viking numbers AND make banshees.
The only time i've lost is when he's done alot of economic damage, but it rarely happens.
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From the replays shown in day[9]'s show, I would think good bunker placement goes a long way, because they protect against banshees and hellions alike. Also check iEchoic's own post. He points out the similarity with the TvZ matchup. How do you beat muta/bling with tank marine? You run the marines until the blings are dead and then clean house. Zerg relies on taking out one component of your 2-component-army and then he wins the battle. I would guess a marine/marauder force works the same way. When he enganges, you pull back the marines with stim, the marauder with concussive engage the hellions and you end up with a few marauders and your marines vs his air force. Like in the TvZ, the hellion player will be forced to flank and engage multiple sides, but unlike the TvZ, there is no speedling equivalent that can block the marines movement.
EDIT:
Also simcity you base, so that hellions cannot reach your mineral line. Supply depots and raxes can create a wall around a mineral line and you just need turrets to fend off banshees and dropships dropping inside the wall. Ever saw a toss expecting iEchoic's hellion drop? That's the spirit!
As an opening I suggest my own one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191771
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On February 14 2011 20:25 Deadlyfish wrote:
I've found that marauder/viking beats this.
Banshees are more expensive than marauders, and hellions suck against them. So they will have to stop producing banshees in order to keep up with my viking count, giving my marauders time to kill him.
He cant keep up in viking numbers AND make banshees.
The only time i've lost is when he's done alot of economic damage, but it rarely happens.
So how do you go about this? 1rax FE? 3 Rax Rauder into 2base play with 2-3ports?
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On February 14 2011 15:00 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 14:47 ZasZ. wrote:
No, I don't think he broke TvT. At my skill level (~3k Diamond) it works fairly well and I've really only lost to players that I could tell were better than me and outplayed me with Tank/Viking or 1 Rax Expand.
Even if the build evolves to the point where it IS like PvP and both players are forced to do the same build, I'd still prefer it to the alternative, Tank/Viking positional battles, which I can't stand.
But this is coming from a Random player who is about to main Zerg because I've reached my skill cap for Terran/Protoss. I don't understand when players say they've reach their "skill cap" for terran and/or protoss. Like TLO said that yet he was never winning tournaments and he failed to get Code S with Terran. How can you reach the skill cap for a race and still constantly lose I just fail to grasp this. I don't even think MVP has hit the skill cap for Terran yet. And personally I prefer positional Tank battles Because that's as close as possible to BW and anything BW is amazing.
People are different, some people don't have the inclination for a race and cannot improve past a certain point. Everyone has a race of preference, one that best fit the player's style.
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did you notice that in his replays he never fought a turtle terran with sieged tanks... 1st game, no siege, 2nd game MM, 3rd game, marauder heavy.
This build is very similar to the way a zerg plays (bling/muta), It can be beaten by a turtling terran (bunkers/turrets/s-tanks) and a large but slow push with tanks and thors.
Thors are the primary counter to this build (it is never discussed on the daily really, they state that it comes down to "unit control"), you can magic box the thors with your banshees, but if u miss micro you will loss infinity banshees in three volleys from a thor.
Or as others have said mass vikings (hide a port), and defend with turrets/bunkers. take air control, push with marauders.
its in no way broken, just a little bit inventive, there will be many more builds like this in all match-ups in the future, the game is very young.
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Looking for a diamond/masters player who feels they can execute this build competently, who would be willing to play as many practice games as it takes for me to have a grasp on playing against it. If nothing else than helping a fellow TL poster, you get to burn my SCVs for what could be hours.
EU server
Baggiez
135
(or send me a pm on here)
<3
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On February 14 2011 20:56 VashTS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 20:25 Deadlyfish wrote:
I've found that marauder/viking beats this.
Banshees are more expensive than marauders, and hellions suck against them. So they will have to stop producing banshees in order to keep up with my viking count, giving my marauders time to kill him.
He cant keep up in viking numbers AND make banshees.
The only time i've lost is when he's done alot of economic damage, but it rarely happens. So how do you go about this? 1rax FE? 3 Rax Rauder into 2base play with 2-3ports?
I open 1/1/1, scout what he is doing, then if he is doing that build, i expand, and go either 3 barrack 2 port, or 3 port 3 barracks (this allows for flexibility, but you cant really afford it). Usually with double reactor ports i am able to keep up though. But you obviously also have to pressure him abit. If you pressure him with marauders you're forcing him to build something besides vikings, which will let you get ahead.
Though most terrans will abandon hellion/viking/banshee once i get ahead in the viking count.
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IMO fast cloak banshee owns this build, your cloak banshee arrives to face off against 2marines and a medivac with a good 45seconds until a viking even pops never mind a raven. People always claim that they won't lose that much whereas you will lose everything to the hellions...but one bunker with marines in it behind the mineral line and sim city should do the trick i think, AND they will definitely lose alot more then they claim the banshee just gets their too early if executed properly gas before rax.
Also a couple of people have mentioned bunkers and marines....seems to me that a 1rax FE with bunkers everywhere would own this build no problem, helps with the sim city as well.
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On February 14 2011 23:33 Jayzo wrote:This build is very similar to the way a zerg plays (bling/muta), It can be beaten by a turtling terran (bunkers/turrets/s-tanks) and a large but slow push with tanks and thors.
Thors are the primary counter to this build (it is never discussed on the daily really, they state that it comes down to "unit control"), you can magic box the thors with your banshees, but if u miss micro you will loss infinity banshees in three volleys from a thor.
Or as others have said mass vikings (hide a port), and defend with turrets/bunkers. take air control, push with marauders.
Well, you're supposed to be pro-active with this build, so that your opponent won't be able to hide a starport, of course. Scouting is that important when it comes down to unit composition from your own starports, it's been said times and times again.
Also, a death push will destroy this composition. Nobody denies that. But the thing is, once you've established 3 or even 4 bases to your opponent's 2, you've secured a lead, so you don't have to keep using this mix, like a Zerg will go t3.
If I see my opponent turtle hard and gather a powerful force, I'll use my economic lead to transition into something that'll allow me to slow, or even beat his army, making me further ahead as he'll need to expand.
Lots of people here seem to act as if they were going to face stubborn opponents unable to adapt or react. It's already not quite pertinent when you expect a minimum level of play, but now that we're currently talking about a reactive and versatile build, that's just hoping for your opponent to be outplayed.
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1 rax FE into 3 rax into 1-2 SP, all you need to do is scout and turtle a bit till the drop's toast then push out with marauders and a few marines. Scouting I've been working off 3 things: 17 gas, poke to see 2 marines, hellion. Any banshee or tank build works off gas on 20-22, all builds have more then 2 marines and you see the hellion later as a confirmation after confirming at least one of the other two. Generally you can do a lot of damage with the marine marauder charge as long as you keep the marines safe long enough to kill the banshee and then just slaughter his SCVs. You turn it into a macro war, you're on 2 base he's on one. Win with constant production. I'll admit my friend's not that great at the build, but it's hard to stop banshee production with constant marine marauder pressure and then to see vikings can topple you as I did it to him once and he beat me.
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As iEchoic said himself, this is a VERY mechanically demanding build that has a very high learning curve before being able to execute it at an acceptable level. It holds a ton of potential, though there are many places where miscontrol or mismacro can completely make the entire build fall apart. I don't think it will break TvT, though it has the possibility to become another viable strategy alongside tank-heavy or MMM-heavy as long as the player wants to be creative and has the mechanical prowess to execute it properly.
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How about a reaper expand? Reapers handle hellions incredibly well, especially compared to the standard gasless 1rax expand. Reaper in bunker and hellions can't go near it, some simcity to handle the rest of the area? I dunno, it seems good on paper... Would need to practice it.
And no, a walling tank viking player will NOT match the hellion-air player's viking count. 1 player is putting gas into tanks, the other has 2 ports and only using factories to build hellions.
I think to combat this, we're going to see some TVZ style play - expand-turtling into mech pushes across the map. You'll need turrets and stuff with your tanks, just marines won't cut it. Also, marine spreading will become pretty clutch, as hellions rely ENTIRELY on their splash to do good dps - their fire rate is as slow as tanks!
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EPT
