EPTi find the crying about the "probe sacrifice" laughable also. 1. no you dont need to sacrifice it just keep it running around the enemy base till something pops out that can kill it, like everyone else does. 2. zerg have to sacrifice overlords alla time so whining about such a thing comes off as pretty lame idd.
[H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ - Page 23
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imbs
United Kingdom320 Posts
i find the crying about the "probe sacrifice" laughable also. 1. no you dont need to sacrifice it just keep it running around the enemy base till something pops out that can kill it, like everyone else does. 2. zerg have to sacrifice overlords alla time so whining about such a thing comes off as pretty lame idd. | ||
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calvinL
Canada416 Posts
On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons" like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making. When you scout such an early spawning pool (anything other than 14+) and an early roach warren (before lings), it is not ridiculous to get a forge. It isn't blind at all. Its very scoutable since the warren comes before lings and also the zerg cuts a huge number of drones. Terrans get bunkers up for all-in pushes all the time if they scout a 4gate. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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sas911
Canada113 Posts
I was actually thinking about the build in question while I was playing, and was just building as per usual. I spot that he is obviously going for a roach rush, and I realize this would be a great example to see how my theorized build would work against it. What comes at an amazing surprise to me, is that the attack actually is the exact same as listed in said thread. I did not use cannons, I did not pull probes. If you watch the replay, you see the zerg hit at about 5:50. So obviously, it's later than the example given in the OP's replay. Ugh. So obviously a large difference here. HOWEVER, the second zealot that I use pops out at 5:30, only a marginal 10 seconds after the ideal 5:20. Had I perfectly done chronoboosting of course, it would've been at or before 5:20 ANYWAY. When you watch the battle... it's not even CLOSE. and when I say that, I mean I barely micro and I easily get out ahead. The only reason why I wouldn't say its obvious the build is a counter, is because the zerg mis microes like 4 speedlings and a roach and makes the move-glitch into the ff, not shooting back for a moment. But if you think about it, I had warp gate complete while the battle was going on, and I DIDNT EVEN PULL PROBES YET. 10 probes would've made me won that battle losing ridiculously little. So I realize some of you will say "LOL ZERG DIDN'T MICRO, THAT'S WHY U WINZ LIKE THAT LOLOL." But frankly, I didn't get hindered economically at all. I cut probes for a few moments to make sure key buildings (like second gateway) come out in time, but nothing that actually is major. The rest of the game is obviously just clean up, I get really really lazy here, which is pretty stupid, considering I didn't out right win yet, but still, I was ahead by a LOT when that roach push was finished. For all those who are wondering, I LOL pretty hard when the attack comes, because I was thinking about the build the whole time when I was starting, and was wondering how a roach rush would compare, only to see it's exactly the same as this. So my question is, if I can rofl stomp defend a not THAT well executed roach rush, without cannons, how would a well executed one make the difference, where I pull off 10 freaking probes to assist? -------- EDIT: And I totally remember to put the link... COUGH http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133999-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau My bad :D RE-EDIT: And frankly the main thing I would like to point out, is I'm not sacrificing anything to stop the attack. If he doesn't rush me, I don't lose anything, except maybe 1/2 chrono boosts that could've gone on nexus. It's not like the mandatory forge ideas cropping up, where if zerg expands you're then placed at a huge disadvantage. Hell, the build I used was basically a variation on 3 gate robo. | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
1) You could proxy the roach warren, delaying the build slightly, about 10-15 seconds. 2) You can open with a fake all in by copying the build order, and just making drones and expanding after the warren, canceling the roach warren after scouted. If they know about the build and how to stop it, this can work. If they have no clue how to stop it and are just playing standard, the fake will set you behind to any standard play. 3) Utilize a gas steal. This will limit sentry and sentry+stalker a bit during the rush timing. 4) Actually go ALL in by bringing drones along. Drone drill up the ramp to get past blocking zealot or force an early force field. Not sure on the timing of this for if it is worth it, but if the build has enough money for the zergling reinforcements, you could send all your drones to hit shortly before the roaches arrive. *Tested this once, if you send drones when roaches pop, you have about 250 minerals to spend on making 5 pairs of lings. If you send your queen after the first inject, it might get there depending on the map and positions. By the time it gets there it will have enough energy for transfuse. | ||
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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On February 03 2011 03:00 imbs wrote: takes 20 seconds of watching the replay to realise cannons rape this. takes a further 20 seconds to realise you can scout it and get cannons up before anything gets to your base. furthermore all this scouting is easily done by the first worker scout you send out. i do not get why a whine thread needed to be made at all. i find the crying about the "probe sacrifice" laughable also. 1. no you dont need to sacrifice it just keep it running around the enemy base till something pops out that can kill it, like everyone else does. 2. zerg have to sacrifice overlords alla time so whining about such a thing comes off as pretty lame idd. Doesn't surprise me, travis has always been a whiner, he is the equivalent of avilo for protoss. I think Darkforce's advice was the best. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On February 03 2011 03:00 imbs wrote: takes 20 seconds of watching the replay to realise cannons rape this. takes a further 20 seconds to realise you can scout it and get cannons up before anything gets to your base. furthermore all this scouting is easily done by the first worker scout you send out. i do not get why a whine thread needed to be made at all. i find the crying about the "probe sacrifice" laughable also. 1. no you dont need to sacrifice it just keep it running around the enemy base till something pops out that can kill it, like everyone else does. 2. zerg have to sacrifice overlords alla time so whining about such a thing comes off as pretty lame idd. The thing about Zerg is that they can easily just not rush and crank out Drones instead. The Overlord was already in place to scout a Forge (which would've had to be in place of where the Core went) and then the Photon Cannons. Just make a few Zerglings or a Roach to deny scouting and macro up while he sits there wasting resources on static defense. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote: From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off. He can make a pair of lings to kill the probe before the roaches pop. It'll screw up the timing if he waits to chase off the probe to start the roach warren, but a pair of lings while the roach warren builds won't screw anything up. All Z needs to let you know is that a roach warren has been started. Hell, he could cancel and go econ even harder. Cannons are not a good solution. | ||
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Mystgun
Hong Kong311 Posts
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 03 2011 03:07 sas911 wrote: So I just had a fairly interesting experience playing against this build on shakuras plateau. I was actually thinking about the build in question while I was playing, and was just building as per usual. I spot that he is obviously going for a roach rush, and I realize this would be a great example to see how my theorized build would work against it. What comes at an amazing surprise to me, is that the attack actually is the exact same as listed in said thread. I did not use cannons, I did not pull probes. If you watch the replay, you see the zerg hit at about 5:50. So obviously, it's later than the example given in the OP's replay. Ugh. So obviously a large difference here. HOWEVER, the second zealot that I use pops out at 5:30, only a marginal 10 seconds after the ideal 5:20. Had I perfectly done chronoboosting of course, it would've been at or before 5:20 ANYWAY. When you watch the battle... it's not even CLOSE. and when I say that, I mean I barely micro and I easily get out ahead. The only reason why I wouldn't say its obvious the build is a counter, is because the zerg mis microes like 4 speedlings and a roach and makes the move-glitch into the ff, not shooting back for a moment. But if you think about it, I had warp gate complete while the battle was going on, and I DIDNT EVEN PULL PROBES YET. 10 probes would've made me won that battle losing ridiculously little. So I realize some of you will say "LOL ZERG DIDN'T MICRO, THAT'S WHY U WINZ LIKE THAT LOLOL." But frankly, I didn't get hindered economically at all. I cut probes for a few moments to make sure key buildings (like second gateway) come out in time, but nothing that actually is major. The rest of the game is obviously just clean up, I get really really lazy here, which is pretty stupid, considering I didn't out right win yet, but still, I was ahead by a LOT when that roach push was finished. For all those who are wondering, I LOL pretty hard when the attack comes, because I was thinking about the build the whole time when I was starting, and was wondering how a roach rush would compare, only to see it's exactly the same as this. So my question is, if I can rofl stomp defend a not THAT well executed roach rush, without cannons, how would a well executed one make the difference, where I pull off 10 freaking probes to assist? -------- And I totally remember to put the link... COUGH http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133999-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau My bad :D Well it is a big difference on shakuras than other maps, personally this seems way too risky to try on shakuras. | ||
Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On February 03 2011 03:09 kcdc wrote: He can make a pair of lings to kill the probe before the roaches pop. It'll screw up the timing if he waits to chase off the probe to start the roach warren, but a pair of lings while the roach warren builds won't screw anything up. All Z needs to let you know is that a roach warren has been started. Hell, he could cancel and go econ even harder. Cannons are not a good solution. edit: ok i noticed my post is a little unorganized. i hope you get the point anyway. I think you underestimate the economic sacrifice. Have you tested going cannons against this specific build? Im pretty sure you didnt. Furthermore, why dont you send a second scouting probe, lure the lings away with the first one and then run in with your second probe and check whether he built 3 roaches or not. Its unbelievable how much uninformed shit is being spilled in this thread. The only reason why people fail with this so hard is because they are not used to dealing with any kind of early aggression from zerg, so they started to slack super hard on their scouting - because it didnt matter anyway. Now you have to scout a little more thoroughly again, wow, big deal. Its also funny how bad people are at observing. At first i didnt want to say this here, because i actually like the fact that i might be able to play this build against some protoss in a tournament who doesnt scout or doesnt look closely (for example, whitera sometimes doenst scout at all). Anyway, when you compare this build to a more normal build, you will notice that at 15 supply, no overlord is being build, but instead, the build goes roach warren, queen, zergling, overlord. this is a huge giveaway. this also means that this build is even farther behind in economy compared to a normal build than people think. which is the reason why i think that even if you do go forge +2 cans and then transition into for example a phoenix opening you wont be worse off compared to a normal game. Furthermore, even IF you are behind if the cancels his roach warren, you have AT LEAST a 50% chance to win against his strategy (of either cancelling or not cancelling). This is assuming that you will win 100% if he does go for the allin and you built cannons. Because if he always cancels, there is no reason to go for a forge, and then you are far ahead. From a game theory perspective, winning with at least 50% chance is a pretty good result. I say "at least" because i think the chance of you winning after going forge + cannons against the cancel seems to be higher than him winning with his allin against cannons. | ||
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Mafs
Canada458 Posts
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sas911
Canada113 Posts
On February 03 2011 03:14 Treemonkeys wrote: + Show Spoiler + On February 03 2011 03:07 sas911 wrote: So I just had a fairly interesting experience playing against this build on shakuras plateau. I was actually thinking about the build in question while I was playing, and was just building as per usual. I spot that he is obviously going for a roach rush, and I realize this would be a great example to see how my theorized build would work against it. What comes at an amazing surprise to me, is that the attack actually is the exact same as listed in said thread. I did not use cannons, I did not pull probes. If you watch the replay, you see the zerg hit at about 5:50. So obviously, it's later than the example given in the OP's replay. Ugh. So obviously a large difference here. HOWEVER, the second zealot that I use pops out at 5:30, only a marginal 10 seconds after the ideal 5:20. Had I perfectly done chronoboosting of course, it would've been at or before 5:20 ANYWAY. When you watch the battle... it's not even CLOSE. and when I say that, I mean I barely micro and I easily get out ahead. The only reason why I wouldn't say its obvious the build is a counter, is because the zerg mis microes like 4 speedlings and a roach and makes the move-glitch into the ff, not shooting back for a moment. But if you think about it, I had warp gate complete while the battle was going on, and I DIDNT EVEN PULL PROBES YET. 10 probes would've made me won that battle losing ridiculously little. So I realize some of you will say "LOL ZERG DIDN'T MICRO, THAT'S WHY U WINZ LIKE THAT LOLOL." But frankly, I didn't get hindered economically at all. I cut probes for a few moments to make sure key buildings (like second gateway) come out in time, but nothing that actually is major. The rest of the game is obviously just clean up, I get really really lazy here, which is pretty stupid, considering I didn't out right win yet, but still, I was ahead by a LOT when that roach push was finished. For all those who are wondering, I LOL pretty hard when the attack comes, because I was thinking about the build the whole time when I was starting, and was wondering how a roach rush would compare, only to see it's exactly the same as this. So my question is, if I can rofl stomp defend a not THAT well executed roach rush, without cannons, how would a well executed one make the difference, where I pull off 10 freaking probes to assist? -------- And I totally remember to put the link... COUGH http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133999-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau My bad :D Well it is a big difference on shakuras than other maps, personally this seems way too risky to try on shakuras. Well what's the difference? Again, the timing as I mentioned in the post though way later, doesn't actually matter in the fact that my second zealot pops at 5:30. I could've used my first sentry and did 1 ff to just completely block, waiting for zealot, and had enough energy to ff again anyway/ | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 21:11 Plexa wrote: There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it. I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis  I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well.no, with the way i play i'd easily hold it off with sentries. but anyways yes, as multiple people have told me the problem is i need to scout the roach warren at the proper timing and adapt. however i do still think the build is overpowered, as many builds in sc2 are, and it would be very very easy to lose to a modified version of this once ur first 2 probes die to 2-4 speedlings. also a good player could just build the roach warren and then cancel it and ur gonna be behind if u try to build cannons. that said, u won't find me crying imba about it anymore. not like that was some big deal anyways I didn't insult the guy or anything I just said that the strategy is imbalanced. and it's not like there AREN'T imbalanced allin strategies in sc2 that are too easy to do for the possible reward. On February 03 2011 01:54 gnurk wrote: well im gonna bring up an importent point: 1: artosis now plays protoss 2: artosis havent whined about this build 3: artosis whines about anything even near "hard to stop" from these 3 points i can tell u this build either doesn't excist, or is easy to handle this is probably the best post in the thread btw | ||
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On February 03 2011 03:24 valckrie wrote: I don't think its imba at all... toss: pull probes, most of them along with a zealot, at the choke, lings can't get in and the toss just chips away with 2 sentries + stalker. Just lost vs a toss who did that. He only had a Zealot and 2 Sentries out by the time he ran out of Force Fields, and the Zealot couldn't do any walling because the Roaches were picking it off using the Overlord spotting. | ||
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Evark
United States44 Posts
It seems to me there were two keys to the replay you shared: - His roach warren went down while your probe was ON his creep (but sitting there near the ramp... it didn't scout it it just left) - He can't see the top of your ramp without that overlord. Scouting probably didn't matter... because you said you knew it was coming, but it's still worth mentioning. I think I would take my chances trying to pick off that overlord before it can see the ramp, if you want to try to maintain the same build you used in that matchup. It seems others with a better idea have already posted some ideas. | ||
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sas911
Canada113 Posts
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Twrtiger
3 Posts
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