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On February 03 2011 03:01 calvinL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote:
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making. When you scout such an early spawning pool (anything other than 14+) and an early roach warren (before lings), it is not ridiculous to get a forge. It isn't blind at all. Its very scoutable since the warren comes before lings and also the zerg cuts a huge number of drones. Terrans get bunkers up for all-in pushes all the time if they scout a 4gate.
bunkers don't require a building that costs 150 and does nothing in the early game, and bunkers can be salvaged. honestly...
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Alot of the sentiment i'm seeing here is that you shouldn't need to heavily alter your build or sacrifice a worker for additional intel when you scout the possibility of early aggression.
The problem i'm seeing though is that's essentially how zerg needs to play against protoss, and even then alot of what it comes down to is making an educated guess based upon my limited intel & knowledge of timings. If I think a 1 gas 4 warpgate rush is coming, my build must be altered radically. Drones must be stopped, crawlers must be built, and you need to basically build nothing but lings in the interim. If i'm wrong, and the rush never comes (or it's a different rush), my punishment is severe. I invested a huge sum into defense against a particular strategy that isn't actually coming.
Alot of protoss players have gotten far too used to 9 pylon, 13-14 gate, CC, and building nothing but probes and 1-2 defending units in the early game. When your opponent is going to be attacking you YOU are the one that needs to be reactive, sometimes radically so, and oftentimes without perfect knowledge of what's coming.
That isn't a new phenomenon to starcraft, to be fair.
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/facepalm
scout at 20 no expo.
zerg is 1 basing.
never scout again.
just chrono probes pretty much.
zerg all ins 14 workers vs 24 workers.
you control your few units poorly 
clearly unstoppable.
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it really comes down to being more active in scouting. if the zerg doesn't throw down a hatch between 14-22 you should know he is 1 basing and throw down a 4th gateway as it gets pretty dicey on just 3 gateways against all ins
the 3gate expo build you were going for is inherently economically focused so you should use your first 2 cb's on probes and the rest should be put on warpgate research and units, regardless of what you scout. while it is true that warpgate would not finish by the time the all in comes, you should have 2 sentries out at that time; you only had one
minor things i'd point out would be the fact that you 9scouted and 13gated. if you 9 scout you need to 14gate to continue probe production with 2 cb's on nexus before gateway. if you are getting all inned don't be afraid to throw up a pylon to block off speedlings. it's true that roaches can hit it but you are just buying time til your warpgates finish or you can get another sentry out.
this build does look pretty dangerous though.
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Did the OP just say he would lose 2 scouting probes to speedlings? ru kidding me?
You do know that speed upgrade is finished at the time of the attack, right? Whine all you want, but don't say overtly false things like that.
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Forge isn't the answer, it puts you behind against Zerg for many reasons.
The build simply seems really strong against zeal/sentry openings, but not against stalkers. I think you already know after having this thread take off what is good vs it and what is not. Your sentry and your zealot took more damage than they should have, and I think you can see that force field doesn't really help if you don't do damage.
I have certain things that I do vs. warren/no hatch and hatch first openings, and I saw your probe around his natural so you knew he didn't expand. That was probably a red flag to you but your response (getting sentries) was improper 
Good luck!
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I mean this as politely as possible, but I get some satisfaction in seeing a high level protoss player struggle with a zerg all in :D. Its a nice change in role reversal. If the 4 warp gate rush is considered a balanced part of the game then this must be too. If you don't scout it and don't alter your build to defend it you will loose, the same way a zerg will if they don't start massing early to prepare for a 4 gate. A few cannons probably would have shut it down fairly easily. You "shouldn't" have to build cannons and completely abandon a macro build for a while to stop the rush, but in this case looks like you do.
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When the lings come, pull all your probes along with zealot (save it from roach) and warp in 1 stalker which stays out of range of the roach, chipping at it while the probe + zeaot + sentry stop the lings from coming in. Once they are in you've lost.
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Just a random thought on the whole "cancel roach warren, expo and drone hard" - wouldn't this be easy to prevent if you just put a pylon down a the natural?
I realize that the 100 minerals are a pretty steep price to pay, but let's say he goes for the all-in, it would just slow him down to shoot down the pylon instead of just going for it....or am I totally wrong on this one.
@Darkforce: although I agree with pretty much everything, if there indeed IS NO COST EFFICIENT RESPONSE to an early roach warren, then this build order would be imbalanced indeed. Winning/losing 50/50 just by guessing can't be the answer in a competitive strategy game.
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I gotta say I find it funny that people keep telling me I played badly vs it or that it is easy to stop (which obviously I could play better after discussing some theory, and you're right I didn't want to alter my build drastically if I could help it). And yet zerg after zerg comes in saying that they try it and they win over and over with it.
It's pretty easy to criticize other people huh. I guess tt1 and cruncher suck too. It's like the sensationalist title (which was the point) is a calling for assholes to come in and criticize a player who's better than them anyways. I know I suck but jesus 98% of you suck worse.
It's just a build that requires drastic action as far as modifying your build, and I didn't take drastic enough action, and now I know better.
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On February 03 2011 03:18 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 21:11 Plexa wrote:On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it. I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis  I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well. no, with the way i play i'd easily hold it off with sentries. but anyways yes, as multiple people have told me the problem is i need to scout the roach warren at the proper timing and adapt. however i do still think the build is overpowered, as many builds in sc2 are, and it would be very very easy to lose to a modified version of this once ur first 2 probes die to 2-4 speedlings. also a good player could just build the roach warren and then cancel it and ur gonna be behind if u try to build cannons. that said, u won't find me crying imba about it anymore. not like that was some big deal anyways I didn't insult the guy or anything I just said that the strategy is imbalanced. and it's not like there AREN'T imbalanced allin strategies in sc2 that are too easy to do for the possible reward. Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 01:54 gnurk wrote:
well im gonna bring up an importent point:
1: artosis now plays protoss
2: artosis havent whined about this build
3: artosis whines about anything even near "hard to stop"
from these 3 points i can tell u this build either doesn't excist, or is easy to handle this is probably the best post in the thread btw
..................
if u get speedlings to deny scouting of the roach warren its a shit build and you can even 4gate him before he gets roaches out. (ling speed finishes at 5.00, first 4gate warp in happens at 5:45)
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On February 03 2011 03:34 jacksonlee wrote:
Did the OP just say he would lose 2 scouting probes to speedlings? ru kidding me?
You do know that speed upgrade is finished at the time of the attack, right? Whine all you want, but don't say overtly false things like that.
oh i see what ur saying. well read my reply right below this one
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Point of Interest perhaps, scBuildOrder generator shows that you could get this exact 6 minute zerg unit composition much earlier, but it wouldnt be effective because the roaches come out last and the zerglings first.
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On February 03 2011 03:39 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 03:18 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 21:11 Plexa wrote:On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it. I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well. no, with the way i play i'd easily hold it off with sentries. but anyways yes, as multiple people have told me the problem is i need to scout the roach warren at the proper timing and adapt. however i do still think the build is overpowered, as many builds in sc2 are, and it would be very very easy to lose to a modified version of this once ur first 2 probes die to 2-4 speedlings. also a good player could just build the roach warren and then cancel it and ur gonna be behind if u try to build cannons. that said, u won't find me crying imba about it anymore. not like that was some big deal anyways I didn't insult the guy or anything I just said that the strategy is imbalanced. and it's not like there AREN'T imbalanced allin strategies in sc2 that are too easy to do for the possible reward. On February 03 2011 01:54 gnurk wrote:
well im gonna bring up an importent point:
1: artosis now plays protoss
2: artosis havent whined about this build
3: artosis whines about anything even near "hard to stop"
from these 3 points i can tell u this build either doesn't excist, or is easy to handle this is probably the best post in the thread btw .................. if u get speedlings to deny scouting of the roach warren its a shit build and you can even 4gate him before he gets roaches out. (ling speed finishes at 5.00, first 4gate warp in happens at 5:45)
i mean normal lings, not speedlings. he'll be getting speed but at that point it's just normal lings. clearly they are normal lings. normal lings catch probes just fine. why do u guys have to be nitpicky dicks
so i accidentally typed speedlings when they are still normal lings. CLEARLY THATS WHAT I MEAN. god
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-185876.jpg)
I'm pretty sure this is the same build. Seems pretty easy to defend with 1 gas 3 gate (transition to 4 gate)
Although on LT it's much easier to defend than metal I'm sure
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i don't think lt/metal makes a difference really since it hits before ~6:20 which is when the 3gate expo is establishing the natural
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I dont see the big deal. Z has to worry about like 4 1-base builds from toss and we have like 1 thats been working recently and everyone is in an uproar.
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On February 03 2011 03:18 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 03:09 kcdc wrote:On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote:On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote:
Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off. He can make a pair of lings to kill the probe before the roaches pop. It'll screw up the timing if he waits to chase off the probe to start the roach warren, but a pair of lings while the roach warren builds won't screw anything up. All Z needs to let you know is that a roach warren has been started. Hell, he could cancel and go econ even harder. Cannons are not a good solution. edit: ok i noticed my post is a little unorganized. i hope you get the point anyway. I think you underestimate the economic sacrifice. Have you tested going cannons against this specific build? Im pretty sure you didnt. Furthermore, why dont you send a second scouting probe, lure the lings away with the first one and then run in with your second probe and check whether he built 3 roaches or not. Its unbelievable how much uninformed shit is being spilled in this thread. The only reason why people fail with this so hard is because they are not used to dealing with any kind of early aggression from zerg, so they started to slack super hard on their scouting - because it didnt matter anyway. Now you have to scout a little more thoroughly again, wow, big deal. Its also funny how bad people are at observing. At first i didnt want to say this here, because i actually like the fact that i might be able to play this build against some protoss in a tournament who doesnt scout or doesnt look closely (for example, whitera sometimes doenst scout at all). Anyway, when you compare this build to a more normal build, you will notice that at 15 supply, no overlord is being build, but instead, the build goes roach warren, queen, zergling, overlord. this is a huge giveaway. this also means that this build is even farther behind in economy compared to a normal build than people think. which is the reason why i think that even if you do go forge +2 cans and then transition into for example a phoenix opening you wont be worse off compared to a normal game. Furthermore, even IF you are behind if the cancels his roach warren, you have AT LEAST a 50% chance to win against his strategy (of either cancelling or not cancelling). This is assuming that you will win 100% if he does go for the allin and you built cannons. Because if he always cancels, there is no reason to go for a forge, and then you are far ahead. From a game theory perspective, winning with at least 50% chance is a pretty good result. I say "at least" because i think the chance of you winning after going forge + cannons against the cancel seems to be higher than him winning with his allin against cannons.
Unless Z screwed up, Z still has his scouting probe in P's base when P has to make the decision to cannon or not to cannon. You're suggesting that you have a 50% chance to guess right (Z either all-ins, or goes econ), but if Z is smart, he just responds to what P does.
And I do understand that going 13 pool, 12 gas and roach warren + queen as soon as pool finishes is an economic set-back for Z, but if P builds cannons, Z has a looooong period where he's free to drone his heart out. If the only way to defend were to get cannons, faking an early roach warren would be an effective way to rule out zealot/stalker pressure and 4 gate. Z will be way ahead if P bites on the fake and gets 2 cannons, and if P doesn't cannon, Z can go ahead with the all-in.
I actually think this could be defended with zealots, so I'm not crying imbalance here. I just think that cannons are a losing strategy because the scouting information you can reasonably count on getting is not enough to tell you whether Z is truly all-in. And if Z is not all-in, cannons will put you behind.
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I've faced this a couple of times (Protoss master league) and if you scout it fast enough a forge works very well to stop it. Just stop mining gas, put up a canon or two + wall in and you will be fine. However, you need to scout the roach warren being dropped instantly.
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Enough flaming already, everyones come to the agreement that additional scouting is needed to make the appropriate decision/reaction. Travis has backtracked on his earlier statements about losing his scouting probe. Tough build to stop, but now we know what to look for.
It's allllllll good
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EPT
