EPT[H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ - Page 26
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CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
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Valefort
France228 Posts
I went zealot, sentry, sentry, with 3 gates, classic build, and used the two forcefields to prevent zerglings from destroying the wall too quickly. That gave me enough time to warp some stalkers, once the zerg managed to break the wall i had enough units to hold the push. | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
On February 03 2011 04:46 travis wrote: oh i didn't realize they had to be on hold position. i don't understand the basis for that. why are opponents units able to push my units out of the way, that doesn't seem like a good aspect to the game at all -.- Holy crap. With all due respect travis, how did you become so high-ranked if you didn't know that units had to be on hold position to not get pushed by enemy units? If you don't put them on hold position then they can get baited by enemy units too..have you not ever been juked by a zerg before? | ||
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
stumped honestly =\ get a zerg buddy and crank out 10-15 games vs this. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
the sensationalist title sure gave it a lot of activity. On February 03 2011 05:03 Xanbatou wrote: Holy crap. With all due respect travis, how did you become so high-ranked if you didn't know that units had to be on hold position to not get pushed by enemy units? If you don't put them on hold position then they can get baited by enemy units too..have you not ever been juked by a zerg before? :D The strategy forum in its full glory. | ||
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dogcore
Albania128 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 03 2011 05:03 Xanbatou wrote: Holy crap. With all due respect travis, how did you become so high-ranked if you didn't know that units had to be on hold position to not get pushed by enemy units? If you don't put them on hold position then they can get baited by enemy units too..have you not ever been juked by a zerg before? uh, i always put my units on hold position when i can. but in the game i had to move my units to go meet the lings at the choke and try to get there first, which they did. tbh i probably did put them on hold position at that point but maybe it was just too late. "holy crap". also, why would that even be important information. why would it be important information to know that units have to be on hold position to keep enemy units from running through them. i doubt i have EVER needed to know that up until this game. and also it is just stupid that that's in the game. | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
On February 03 2011 05:17 travis wrote: uh, i always put my units on hold position when i can. but in the game i had to move my units to go meet the lings at the choke and try to get there first, which they did. tbh i probably did put them on hold position at that point but maybe it was just too late. "holy crap". also, why would that even be important information. why would it be important information to know that units have to be on hold position to keep enemy units from running through them. i doubt i have EVER needed to know that up until this game. and also it is just stupid that that's in the game. Oh okay. Nevermind then, your post just made it seem like you never hold position your units, which would be astounding for a player of your level. That's the only reason I was surprised. Umm, its important information because its the very basis of walling-off with a zealot? Otherwise it's extremely easy to just run lings past it and into the base. Has that never happened to you before? :S | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 03 2011 05:22 Xanbatou wrote: Oh okay. Nevermind then, your post just made it seem like you never hold position your units, which would be astounding for a player of your level. That's the only reason I was surprised. hahaha naw, that'd be incredible if i made it to that level without hold positioning my units. | ||
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uviladame
United States1 Post
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Kefka.dancingmad
Canada262 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 03 2011 05:34 Kefka.dancingmad wrote: so my useful post was skipped completely? I see. no It was read and appreciated I just don't want to reply to literally every post oh some mod changed my title | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On February 03 2011 02:25 the p00n wrote: I don't know if this has been said before but isn't this fucking ridiculously easy to counter? A friend who read this topic (before me) did this exact build on steppes of war (and he's even slightly faster with the exact same build due to steppes' close positions) and I just forcefield him forever. This is very likely to be just a skill-related issue. What stopped you, in that exact game that you posted, from cancelling your 3rd sentry, chronoboosting your gateway as it is transforming into a warpgate and warping in a bunch of sentries? This is not theorycraft, you can check the replay. I can imagine you being confused or whatever in the game itself (well not really if you're 3200 and/or if he did it twice before) but really man? An extra chrono on your c-core for warpgate technology or an impromptu chrono on the gateway as it was morphing and you would have been perfectly fine, there's nothing unbeatable about this build with gateway play - in fact, this was a free win for you. I also do not believe the guy with his '99% winrate'. I'm not playing at 3.2k level (I'm slightly higher) but damn son. Did anyone actually read my post? This 'new' zerg build dies to a simple 3gate expand if you chrono the warpgate technology 3 times or chrono the gateway transforming into a warpgate. Why would you make cannons? | ||
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Darksteel
Finland319 Posts
On February 03 2011 03:45 kcdc wrote: Unless Z screwed up, Z still has his scouting probe in P's base when P has to make the decision to cannon or not to cannon. You're suggesting that you have a 50% chance to guess right (Z either all-ins, or goes econ), but if Z is smart, he just responds to what P does. And I do understand that going 13 pool, 12 gas and roach warren + queen as soon as pool finishes is an economic set-back for Z, but if P builds cannons, Z has a looooong period where he's free to drone his heart out. If the only way to defend were to get cannons, faking an early roach warren would be an effective way to rule out zealot/stalker pressure and 4 gate. Z will be way ahead if P bites on the fake and gets 2 cannons, and if P doesn't cannon, Z can go ahead with the all-in. I actually think this could be defended with zealots, so I'm not crying imbalance here. I just think that cannons are a losing strategy because the scouting information you can reasonably count on getting is not enough to tell you whether Z is truly all-in. And if Z is not all-in, cannons will put you behind. Yea keep in mind that at the time P needs to decide to go for cannons, Queen has popped out so if the scouting Z drone sees cannons being made Z can just make drones from the larvae produced by vomit, closing the harvester cap significantly. Also the P can't really scout whether or not the push is actually coming, making it quite easy to expand for Z. This seems to be a zerg build that puts pressure on your opponent and thus giving you chance to expand, instead of usual zerg builds where you expand first and then need to defend for a long time. | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States322 Posts
Why is is supposed to be fair that Zerg bases are completely open to attack the entire game, but 'toss and terran can wall off and tech or do whatever they want with impunity? | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On February 03 2011 05:37 the p00n wrote: Did anyone actually read my post? This 'new' zerg build dies to a simple 3gate expand if you chrono the warpgate technology 3 times or chrono the gateway transforming into a warpgate. Why would you make cannons? I read it, one of the few informative posts in here. (along with darkforce's) Unfortunately posts like yours get drowned by the sheer masses of people that don't know shit.  If there was a masters only forum we would have a thorough response on how to fend this all-in off in the first 2 pages, but alas, this isnt the place for me to talk about stuff that isnt in my hands. | ||
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plagiarisedwords
United Kingdom138 Posts
Obviously depends on map and will need an appropriate sim-city. Also to all the zerg being smug, protoss need to hold of stuff like this without cannons as they cannot be moved like spinecrawlers can or salvaged like bunkers can. 3 cannons at top of ramp means that you will never be able to have enough to defend your natural. Zerg can just expand and make sure they deny your natural expo. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On February 03 2011 02:56 Bair wrote: Hopefully you see this with all the shit slinging going on in the thread, but I set the final state to 2 lings (for the denial of scouting), 1 queen, metabolic boost, 12 drones, and 3 roaches. That gave me the 3rd roach at 4:48. I tried again with 14 drones and got it at 4:50 :/ Ah. I think I've spotted the problem (not your fault, merely a limitation of the evo chamber): you specified that metabolic boost should be finished. When the roaches pop in the original replay, MB isn't finished. It finishes as the roaches are in transit. What the evo chamber has given you is the fastest way to get three roaches to spawn with MB already done, which isn't the fastest way to get 3 roaches at your opponent's base with MB done. Seems like it would be useful to add an option to evochamber to say "have had 3 roaches for XX seconds" rather than "have 3 roaches" | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On February 03 2011 03:18 DarKFoRcE wrote: edit: ok i noticed my post is a little unorganized. i hope you get the point anyway. I think you underestimate the economic sacrifice. Have you tested going cannons against this specific build? Im pretty sure you didnt. Furthermore, why dont you send a second scouting probe, lure the lings away with the first one and then run in with your second probe and check whether he built 3 roaches or not. Its unbelievable how much uninformed shit is being spilled in this thread. The only reason why people fail with this so hard is because they are not used to dealing with any kind of early aggression from zerg, so they started to slack super hard on their scouting - because it didnt matter anyway. Now you have to scout a little more thoroughly again, wow, big deal. Its also funny how bad people are at observing. At first i didnt want to say this here, because i actually like the fact that i might be able to play this build against some protoss in a tournament who doesnt scout or doesnt look closely (for example, whitera sometimes doenst scout at all). Anyway, when you compare this build to a more normal build, you will notice that at 15 supply, no overlord is being build, but instead, the build goes roach warren, queen, zergling, overlord. this is a huge giveaway. this also means that this build is even farther behind in economy compared to a normal build than people think. which is the reason why i think that even if you do go forge +2 cans and then transition into for example a phoenix opening you wont be worse off compared to a normal game. Furthermore, even IF you are behind if the cancels his roach warren, you have AT LEAST a 50% chance to win against his strategy (of either cancelling or not cancelling). This is assuming that you will win 100% if he does go for the allin and you built cannons. Because if he always cancels, there is no reason to go for a forge, and then you are far ahead. From a game theory perspective, winning with at least 50% chance is a pretty good result. I say "at least" because i think the chance of you winning after going forge + cannons against the cancel seems to be higher than him winning with his allin against cannons. This isnt necessarily directed at darkforce, but i wanted to use your post as a jumping off point While I appreciate and understand your use of the larva use order as a means to justify a setback to the zerg. I think you may be overlooking a less than mathematical aspect of the game from that point forward. Sinking 600 minerals to defend an attack that might not happen delays any possibility of aggression from the protoss for an extremely long time. Since the threat of aggression is so far off suddenly due specifically to your choice to open this way... your decision of whether or not this larva will become a drone or a combat unit becomes substantially easier. More likely than not, it will be a drone knowing you are completely safe. This delay in the ability to move out of your base as the protoss segues into my next point. There are obviously different phases in the game for map control and both players are constantly vying for map control and to regain map control, etc. Zerg get free map control early on with a couple overlords and some really quick and inexpensive combat units. To combat this the protoss will either make a sentry based army to ensure a safe retreat if you run into problems OR phoenix/VR (each operate differently in their role to obtain midgame map control). Now phoenix can give you SOME control and mobility, but basically what a phoenix based map control attempt does for you is show you a bunch of shit all over the map (expansions/creep spread/what have you) that you cant do anything about. Its tantamount to getting your observer into their base to see that a cloaked banshee just arrived at yours... All your doing is getting a glimpse and what is going to kill you sooner or later. 600 minerals in a forge and 3 cannons along with the delay in tech and expansion allows the zerg (or any race really that scouted you have such a defensive posture) to cut into this period of time where protoss can gain map control. Essentially you are skipping the early-midgame phase where protoss has a chance to seize map control back before the possible mutas hit or the creep has spread like crazy. Having said all that, I am happy that this build has surfaced... I've actually seen this style quite a few times but none so precise as the one in this replay. I think we protoss got too used to zergs being predictable.... and they really are. Builds like this help the game more than they hurt the game and make it more dynamic. While I think roaches are a little too efficient for their cost (ive always felt 100/25 would be appropriate for their relative power and high hp) i do think there are some do's and don'ts in dealing with zerg in these first 5 minutes.. 1) Do keep your probe in their base until a queen pops or lings pop. Your probe might live... might die... regardless of either... the information its giving you is worth the 50 minerals and production time, etc. Even if you are just seeing what kills it. I'm surprised you arent doing this anyways... I make sure 100% of the time that I see either lings or a queen before i try to escape because no matter what build hes doing how can you be sure those arent just more drones? The simple fact that he built lings covers some of the cost of losing that scout. If he sees you leave before he makes lings he can just make a drone with that larva instead. You are actually worse off in that situation than if you just let his lings kill you. 2) Do BUILD STALKERS if you see a roach warren. Regardless of whether its 7RR or this roach/ling all in... Protoss got so used to this 3 gate sentry expand. Its a great build... I love it... i used it in 90% of my PvZ games... but just be flexible... if they GAS steal you... another reason to build more stalkers and less sentries. If they gas steal you I would expect roaches to be honest. Start making logical conclusions if you cant see exactly what theyre doing. You might be wrong sometimes and it might put you behind and you might lose due to that... but you aren't learning ANYTHING by not making those theoretical leaps. There is alot of discovery to be done in those theoretical leaps whether you are wrong or not. 3) Don't rely on sentries to defend a 1 base all in from zerg. With OL sight range, sentries plain suck at defending against this type of thing. They can be good, but dont rush to get a ton, they dont make you invincible. 4) Don't be afraid to lose probes for information... To do so is assuming that you and your opponent are so evenly matched that even 1 probe can change the outcome of the game. Sometimes that is the case, but in EVERY game you should always assume you are a stronger player and that you will respond to what you see in a way that makes sense even if it doesnt work out. all in all i think it was unreasonable on your part build a second sentry and that was mainly due to poor scouting. If you knew he would do it a third time... all the less reason to build the second sentry. Having said that, you tried it, it didnt work... and it wont work. Its not the correct response. I agree cannon is not the correct response either. Getting a fast +1 can help mitigate the setback you imposed on yourself... but overall you will be behind the zerg that sees the forge with his OL and decides to just not all-in. Its always better to defend with units when possible because units move (duh). Earlier 2nd gate, more stalkers, delay third gate to ensure constantly produce units and chrono gateways instead of warpgates. Additionally, scout better. If you scout an indicator that hes not expanding quick, (saving larva for instance), get fewer sentries and more stalkers. The stalkers are crucial but its by no means a slam dunk. Basically hes cutting workers at 14, youve spent another 500 minerals on workers that he put towards units. His army should be about 500 minerals stronger than yours as such... why should your army win? scout. extrapolate. learn from the poorer extrapolations you make. improve. | ||
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AlexNec
1 Post
i watched the replay and read the first couple of pages, i admit i didn't had the time to read all of it so i don't know what conclusion was drawn, if any... but it just happened to me on the ladder. i knew all the zergs will be trying it so when i scouted the pretty fast pool first and no hatch afterwards i knew that this was it i am only 2.2k diamond so it may not be against the best zerg and my micro isn't stellar, but i think my build can hold it first of all i always go 10 gate against zerg, regardless of my future plan, its safer for me even if i lose some early econ i manage to destroy all the early nonsense the 4 gate build i went is quite fast, usually i have my warpgate research done at about 5.00 so i managed to hold it with my first units and some probes.. i knew i had more probes than him, maybe not so much as travis did... but i could sacrifice some of them again this is not at all an econ build but i suspected the all in from him and i wanted to be as fast as i can with my warpgates http://www.mediafire.com/?7p1n3t9qdsvjiyd | ||
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