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I'm wondering about the viability of BCs in late-game TvT bio vs tank play.
I'm not talking about mass BC of course, just two or three of them.
In TvT, if you're focusing on Bio - your opponent won't have vikings (air advantage isn't necessary unless both sides go tank/viking since they're quite useless on the ground)... so BCs could be very useful since the only Terran counter to them is vikings. Thors are only good against light air and marines' low-damage-high-attack-rate is ineffective against high armor units.
By getting BCs, you would force the other player to get vikings. This means even if your BCs do minimal damage, you still would have forced your opponent to use the same amount of resources to counter... and both sides come out even.
The ability to snipe tank lines with the 91831 range yamato cannon seems like it could be really useful - and you can immediately pull the BCs back into your infantry line if the opponent's vikings attack (vikings take 20 volleys to kill one BC). They also serve as a decent gas dump since you're usually mineral strapped going MMM.
Thoughts? Are they really as bad as people make them out to be?
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The only thing that can really kill battlecruisers is vikings, so if you have the viking count or can easily take it, get battlecruisers.
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No one makes em out to be bad in TvT, and even with the emergence of carrier play they're becoming more viable TvP. However, to get to your point their have been many long TvT's where battlecruiser tech switches have one the game, so they are definately more then just viable late game TvT, it's what most people consider the right tech choice I believe.
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Too expensive and takes way too long to get. Better off just getting cloaked banshees if the purpose is to kill ground units.
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If you have air control with vikings, go for it.
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I don't think you even necessarily need to have vikings already. Ravens with PDD are a key unit for supporting them, and marines and thors provide an alternative way to combat the opponent's vikings. As far as actually utilizing the BCs, I like using them just as they were often used back in Brood War TvTs, which is for breaking through tank lines and sniping key units and/or buildings with Yamato.
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^ravens cost way too much gas. A pdd only blocks 20? viking shots. That is like 2 volleys midgame and less than 1 volley late game. Also, vikings can kite BCs forever with proper micro. Vikings are good because they are relatively cheap in terms of gas.
When I play TvT if I see my opponent is going for the standard tank+viking mix I like to outexpand them, get way more vikings, a few banshees, and then get battlecruisers to seal the deal once I have 4+ bases. I dump all my excess minerals into barracks and marines. I only make enough tanks to defend my base so he can't just waltz in and kill me.
I like viking + banshee because they both benefit from air upgrades that carry over nicely into the BC transition. 3/3 BCs are basically unkillable if you have viking support.
The main reason I end up getting BC is because once my opponent sees that I have a ton of banshees and I'm doing a lot of drops they will spam turrets at their expansions. Yamato a few turrets and send in medivacs to clean up.
TLDR: BCs are amazing in TvT, you just have to transition properly and make sure they are upgraded. BCs without upgrades are a terrible waste of money.
I am 2700 master.
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Part of me wants to see if late Game Thor + BC would work but I'm too lazy to play TvTs this snow day.
Thors and Yamato have 10 range, vikings have 9 range and almost always clump :-\ And as someone who has encountered mass BC late game, I can say that BC + Anti Viking ends up being more cost efficient than Mass Viking late late game. I would think that BC + Thor + Tank probably wins in a mine out situation against Tank/Marine/Viking.
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tanks will take care of ground anti air so no marines or thors. Bcs are an option if you have the air control. But armor + range upgraded turrets will do wonders against bcs. So its not autolose if you don't have air control.
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On paper at least, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to go for probably the most immobile unit in the Terran arsenal in a strategy that has it's main strength in mobility.
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Main issue I would see is the potential for drops countering this. Vikings can pick off medivacs, but essentially useless against marines. And BCs are too slow to defend. But if you're going for a straight line kill shot against your enemy, a strong bc/viking force should work wonders.
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There has been threads about this before, but I absolutely think cruisers are awesome in tvt. Nothing on the ground can can even touch them. I have won games with 2 cruisers and a stack of Vikings. The normal fulcrums of tvt apply though. If you are contained it probably won't work and if you have map control it should work great. I do recommend generous use of sensor towers. This is a late game transition, I usually aim to take a third base, drop some extra starports, and make sure I have air superiority.
Banshees can often fill the role but they don't fight marines quite as well and they melt to thors. They also cannot engage vikings at all, while cruisers can lend extra dps in a showdown. I don't really have anything bad to say about banshees though, for their cost and build time they are awesome dps against all the races and cloak can be pretty unfair. They can do great surgical strikes to soften up a tank line in a stalemate if your opponent isn't proactive with turrets.
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On February 02 2011 08:02 Senorcuidado wrote:
There has been threads about this before, but I absolutely think cruisers are awesome in tvt. Nothing on the ground can can even touch them. I have won games with 2 cruisers and a stack of Vikings. The normal fulcrums of tvt apply though. If you are contained it probably won't work and if you have map control it should work great. I do recommend generous use of sensor towers. This is a late game transition, I usually aim to take a third base, drop some extra starports, and make sure I have air superiority.
Banshees can often fill the role but they don't fight marines quite as well and they melt to thors. They also cannot engage vikings at all, while cruisers can lend extra dps in a showdown. I don't really have anything bad to say about banshees though, for their cost and build time they are awesome dps against all the races and cloak can be pretty unfair. They can do great surgical strikes to soften up a tank line in a stalemate if your opponent isn't proactive with turrets.
Pretty much this.
I've had split map games on Scrap Station that came down to him over way investing in tanks (It was like his 15 to my 7 or somethign) and losing the viking battle, I rolled in with 5 cruisers made the tanks unsiege, and rolled in with marine/viking/BC while moving my tanks up.
Great way to end games, but there will be a timeframe where you are vulnerable, but its easy to miss in a lot of the semi-stalemated TvT's.
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They're great but without viking superiority it's not hard for them to be kited to death. Yamato helps a lot, if you switch to BCs get yamato.
But without air superiority or yamato, a handful of vikings will kite any number of bc's forever and they won't be cost effective. Great units though, I always approve when I see them in tvt 
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They're a great way to use a viking lead lategame when you have the money for him. If he has given up on the viking war and started pumping marauders then it makes sense to get a few. I don't like massing them due to the cheap, easy and fast nature of massing vikings off reactored starports.
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When I play TvT if I see my opponent is going for the standard tank+viking mix I like to outexpand them, get way more vikings, a few banshees, and then get battlecruisers to seal the deal once I have 4+ bases. I dump all my excess minerals into barracks and marines. I only make enough tanks to defend my base so he can't just waltz in and kill me.
I do exactly this.
The Thor/Tank/BC composition also sounds cool, but the upside of transitioning Marine/Tank/Viking into BCs is that you have map control with Vikings in the midgame. You're also usually behind in the tank count, so having air superiority is absolutely essential. Thor/Tank/BC is also really a lot of gas.
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If you have air superiority, they're what will probably win you the game once it reaches a stalemate situation (like you usually see in tank/viking battles, which are happening less and less often it seems). They're fantastic at breaking siege lines, and so long as he doesn't pick you off with Vikings (a single viking can ruin your day), you can just kill off his tanks and so long as you have a ground army of your own there's little he can do about it.
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BCs are a unit you either build your army around, or leave behind. They're extremely slow and very easy to deal with cost-effectively unless your unit composition revolves around keeping them alive. A single BC costs as much gas as 4 Vikings, and 2-3 BCs will die to even the paltry amount of Vikings most Tank-heavy players will build to keep vision advantage.
Most Tank players will also have so many Tanks that 2-3 Yamatos will not even phase their tank line (9 tanks will annihilate bio just as easily as 12), and while Yamato outrange Vikings, you have no vision unless you're willing to enter Viking range, as Vikings provide vision.
Thor/BC will die to Marine/Viking, and since no Terran worries about minerals after getting 2+ bases, your army is just not cost-effective.
Another thing is that upgrades for bio/BC is very hard to keep up, since there's no reason to upgrade air until BCs are out. 0/0 BCs are not very strong, and can be easily destroyed by mass stim'd Marines. If you're going to upgrade air anyway, may as well gain air superiority with Vikings. If you have more Vikings than he does, then you may as well invalidate Tanks by going BCs and keeping your entire army air. At that point, BCs are no longer support, but your main form of ground damage.
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On February 02 2011 16:41 Scare_Crow wrote:
Another thing is that upgrades for bio/BC is very hard to keep up, since there's no reason to upgrade air until BCs are out. 0/0 BCs are not very strong, and can be easily destroyed by mass stim'd Marines. If you're going to upgrade air anyway, may as well gain air superiority with Vikings. If you have more Vikings than he does, then you may as well invalidate Tanks by going BCs and keeping your entire army air. At that point, BCs are no longer support, but your main form of ground damage.
i wholeheartedly agree. bcs are not cutesy play, they are a severe techswitch to which u have to commit if u want to be successful with it.
bc/viking is the ultimate tvt endgame unit composition. once a player in a tank/viking vs tank/viking stalemate is able to secure the air superiority and get some (3+) bcs out at the same time, he has basically won the game if he didnt get rolled over on the ground or lose air superiority in the meantime.
all he then has to do is to keep more vikings than his opponent. once the bc count grows, the amount of vikings u can take out with yamato also grows. as time goes on the bc to viking ratio can be increased safely. but usually if he loses the first viking battle and the bcs are still alive, its game over immediately.
this is all assuming at least moderate air upgrades. 0 armor upgrade bcs ofc get slaughtered by +3 attack upgraded stimmed marines. but with somewhat equal upgrades, bcs roflstomp marines.
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On February 02 2011 07:12 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Part of me wants to see if late Game Thor + BC would work but I'm too lazy to play TvTs this snow day.
Thors and Yamato have 10 range, vikings have 9 range and almost always clump :-\ And as someone who has encountered mass BC late game, I can say that BC + Anti Viking ends up being more cost efficient than Mass Viking late late game. I would think that BC + Thor + Tank probably wins in a mine out situation against Tank/Marine/Viking.
I want u to play moar plzz!
Seriously, I always love your ideas. I've been thinking about Thor/BC lategame as well and to be honest, I couldnt come up with an effective way to deal with it. Magic boxing Vikings would help against the Thors, but then they would be less efficient against the BCs and with a good number of Thors and Yamatos they shouldn't propose too much of a threat.
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EPT
