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How to micro Phoenixes vs Mutalisks - Page 3
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Omni17
United States141 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 01 2011 05:54 travis wrote: you're just straight up wrong about this. 2 base phoenix will probably lose to 3base muta when the 2 players are of equal skill. the zerg will just get too many mutas. it's possible to counter it but u really need to get a 3rd base fast and find some way to limit the zerg in bases. not to mention things become very grim when u have 25 phoenix, the z has 34 muta, and then the z switches to hydras or even to corruptors. I am almost sure that in a straight up battle, for the cost, 0/0 upgrades on each, a group of mutas will beat a group of phoenix. The mutas would need to be stacked, though. And need to target fire. It would at least be close, anyways. with awesome micro phoenix beats muta for the cost but it's really not viable in game. firstly, the muta player is going to cut directions and fly away any time u try to skirt around the edge of the mutas. then if u try to chase, they will cut back into you if you get close and you will lose a phoenix, maybe they'll lose a muta. it really just doesn't work at all how lots of you say, you just haven't dealt with good muta control before. not to mention this insane CONSTANT micro(which is what is required to chase mutas all around the map killing them while not losing phoenix - which can happen instantly at any moment) requires that you don't do anything else besides look at your phoenix. not viable at all in a real game. also, i think marine micro vs banelings isn't really comparable to phoenix vs muta micro. 2 totally different things. You could not be more wrong. Equal cost Phoenixes destroy Mutas if they a-move into each other, it's not even close. If Protoss can force the action by pushing your base and get the phoenix under guardian shield, you might as well just leave the game because you know the outcome of that battle. 2 base phoenix vs 3 base muta I'm not sure how that plays out because if zerg opens muta and you open phoenix you pretty much won the game, he'll never be able to saturate his 3rd to any significant degree. The reason is mutas can't run away from phoenix, nor can you harass with phoenixes in play. The protoss player can simply just kill you with his gateway + phoenix army. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:10 Skyro wrote: You could not be more wrong. Equal cost Phoenixes destroy Mutas if they a-move into each other, it's not even close. If Protoss can force the action by pushing your base and get the phoenix under guardian shield, you might as well just leave the game because you know the outcome of that battle. 2 base phoenix vs 3 base muta I'm not sure how that plays out because if zerg opens muta and you open phoenix you pretty much won the game, he'll never be able to saturate his 3rd to any significant degree. The reason is mutas can't run away from phoenix, nor can you harass with phoenixes in play. The protoss player can simply just kill you with his gateway + phoenix army. To elaborate the bolded sentence, if the zerg wants to catch up with phoenix production he must keep creating mutalisks from his larvae, and thus his economy will become crappy. The protoss player can expand WHILE continuing probes and continuing phoenix production as well, so in the long run the toss will win. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:10 Skyro wrote: You could not be more wrong. Equal cost Phoenixes destroy Mutas if they a-move into each other, it's not even close. If Protoss can force the action by pushing your base and get the phoenix under guardian shield, you might as well just leave the game because you know the outcome of that battle. 2 base phoenix vs 3 base muta I'm not sure how that plays out because if zerg opens muta and you open phoenix you pretty much won the game, he'll never be able to saturate his 3rd to any significant degree. The reason is mutas can't run away from phoenix, nor can you harass with phoenixes in play. The protoss player can simply just kill you with his gateway + phoenix army. well i changed it from a-move because that isn't really far in comparison to an in-game scenario, the mutas will be stacked and probably target fire phoenixes. I'll test it later today, 12 phoenix vs 12 mutas. Remember, phoenixes cost 50 minerals more than mutas. Also, I don't even know what ur talking about regarding saturation. Why won't the zerg be able to saturate his 3rd? And opening phoenix does not mean the zerg loses if he goes mutas... all he has to do is get spore crawlers. And the guardian shield comment is just silly. Firstly sentries cost 100 gas, which take away from how many phoenix you can build. Secondly, why in the world would mutas fight your phoenixes under guardian shield? If you're going to get that game specific then I will say that the zerg built 5 spine crawlers and now you can't attack him. Your talk is getting way too game specific but I guess mine kind of was too. Anyways my main point was that phoenixes are not "insta win" vs mutas, not even close. And they don't allow for some sort of magical micro where you kill way more mutas than you lose phoenixes. They only do that if the zerg is bad. I understand that you may have won games easily opening phoenix vs mutas and that surely can happen, but it was very game specific and in lots of games if you try to match mutas with phoenixes you are going to have a very hard road ahead of you. On February 01 2011 06:13 iChau wrote: To elaborate the bolded sentence, if the zerg wants to catch up with phoenix production he must keep creating mutalisks from his larvae, and thus his economy will become crappy. The protoss player can expand WHILE continuing probes and continuing phoenix production as well, so in the long run the toss will win. dude what? there is no way a zerg could possibly spend all it's larva on just mutas, it would run out of gas. and if it gets a 3rd hatchery it is surely going to have much extra larva at the 3rd hatchery. this is all very game specific though | ||
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Brutus
Netherlands284 Posts
On February 01 2011 05:54 travis wrote: you're just straight up wrong about this. 2 base phoenix will probably lose to 3base muta when the 2 players are of equal skill. the zerg will just get too many mutas. it's possible to counter it but u really need to get a 3rd base fast and find some way to limit the zerg in bases. not to mention things become very grim when u have 25 phoenix, the z has 34 muta, and then the z switches to hydras or even to corruptors. I am almost sure that in a straight up battle, for the cost, 0/0 upgrades on each, a group of mutas will beat a group of phoenix. The mutas would need to be stacked, though. It would at least be close, anyways. with awesome micro phoenix beats muta for the cost but it's really not viable in game. firstly, the muta player is going to cut directions and fly away any time u try to skirt around the edge of the mutas. then if u try to chase, they will cut back into you if you get close and you will lose a phoenix, maybe they'll lose a muta. it really just doesn't work at all how lots of you say, you just haven't dealt with good muta control before. not to mention this insane CONSTANT micro(which is what is required to chase mutas all around the map killing them while not losing phoenix - which can happen instantly at any moment) requires that you don't do anything else besides look at your phoenix. not viable at all in a real game. also, i think marine micro vs banelings isn't really comparable to phoenix vs muta micro. 2 totally different things. You are generally a good poster, and I don't want to be a dick, but you are really wrong about this. Like, totally super duper wrong. First off you are creating a scenario which could be misleading. But ok, let's play along.Let's say 2 base protoss vs 3 base zerg is kinda even. Now you are saying that you have to do something as protoss. Yes, expand yourself or attack. But I don't know what it has to do with the muta vs phoenix debate. You are saying 25 phoenix vs 34 mutas? I a-moved(edit: microed(sp?)) the phoenix and did the stacking with the mutas. 16 phoenix were left. I think with better micro the outcome would be even more in favour of the protoss. Now go figure why zerg has to switch to hydras or corruptors. By the way, a standard gateway ball which goes with phoenix will have AA already (stalkers, 1-2 sentrys for GS), while Zerg ball would be roach/ling based. Mixing in hydras would mean a few expensive upgrades, and limit the muta production. If zerg responds with corruptors you can either go void rays, which can get messy because IF you somehow lose the void rays (they are slower than both) the corruptors take your phoenix down. Or you can play it safe and go ground heavy, because corruptors can only watch whats going down there. You couldn't be more wrong about muta vs phoenix. Phoenix shred them apart, so fucking bad. I did some more testing with different numbers. 12 muas vs 8 phoenix, 4 phoenix will be left on average. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
Anyways, don't worry you're definitely not being a dick if I am wrong then I should be shown im wrong. I would love to see some vod or replay of a good protoss fighting a good zerg phoenix vs muta though. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
Mutas are great vs. phoenixes when you have like 20 of them and he got like 5 phoenixes. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:45 Alpina wrote: The thing is if you open with spire and he blindly opens with even 1 stargate then I don't think zerg has a chance in wining air battle. Let's say zerg makes first ~7 mutas and at that time toss probably gonna have like ~4 phoenixes even from 1 stargate and you not going to outmass phoenixes with mutas from this point. I understand that maybe the phoenixes will still win but I don't see why/how you can say this. The zerg has 4 gas, right? The protoss has 2? Or is it 6 gas vs 4? Either way I don't see how you can possibly keep up with muta production when he has an income of twice as much gas. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:46 travis wrote: I understand that maybe the phoenixes will still win but I don't see why/how you can say this. The zerg has 4 gas, right? The protoss has 2? Or is it 6 gas vs 4? Either way I don't see how you can possibly keep up with muta production when he has an income of twice as much gas. When I come to your base with my first little number of mutas then your first ~4 phoenixes gonna own that and you also start boosting phoenixes. Ofc if I sit in my base and start pumping mutas and don't use them I will outmass you but what's the point of mutas if they don't harass? | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:56 Alpina wrote: When I come to your base with my first little number of mutas then your first ~4 phoenixes gonna own that and you also start boosting phoenixes. Ofc if I sit in my base and start pumping mutas and don't use them I will outmass you but what's the point of mutas if they don't harass? well if u know ur opponent is going phoenixes u can harrass just as soon as u outmass the p right? (this is what I've had a couple good zergs do vs me). they just mass the mutas and take bases, put up spores and spines and keep making drones. | ||
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Brutus
Netherlands284 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:44 travis wrote: Well i guess I am just wrong, dunno why my experiences have been so different though. I always have lots of trouble trying to counter muta with phoenix. It might partly be latency/computer lag but really if 16 phoenix are left in that engagement then I don't understand how I've been losing some of these games I've had, lol. Somehow managing to lose more phoenix than I would lose if they were just a-moved. Anyways, don't worry you're definitely not being a dick if I am wrong then I should be shown im wrong. I would love to see some vod or replay of a good protoss fighting a good zerg phoenix vs muta though. Well the 34 vs 25 wasn't a moved, I should had been clearer on that. In that fight I did micro them. if you a-moved them both 3/4 mutas and sometimes 1 phoenix will be left from it. Point still remains, phoenix are pretty good vs mutas. | ||
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Misto
Samoa4 Posts
Doing some experiments seems that is worth to micro them only if they are 3-4 phoenix vs 5-8 muta otherwise is better only to sit them down and just micro them around the muta ball to prevent shared damage. You have to scout mutalisks of course otherwise you are dead (if you see only zergling and no roaches something is going on .. ) | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:22 travis wrote: well i changed it from a-move because that isn't really far in comparison to an in-game scenario, the mutas will be stacked and probably target fire phoenixes. I'll test it later today, 12 phoenix vs 12 mutas. Remember, phoenixes cost 50 minerals more than mutas. Also, I don't even know what ur talking about regarding saturation. Why won't the zerg be able to saturate his 3rd? And opening phoenix does not mean the zerg loses if he goes mutas... all he has to do is get spore crawlers. And the guardian shield comment is just silly. Firstly sentries cost 100 gas, which take away from how many phoenix you can build. Secondly, why in the world would mutas fight your phoenixes under guardian shield? If you're going to get that game specific then I will say that the zerg built 5 spine crawlers and now you can't attack him. Your talk is getting way too game specific but I guess mine kind of was too. Anyways my main point was that phoenixes are not "insta win" vs mutas, not even close. And they don't allow for some sort of magical micro where you kill way more mutas than you lose phoenixes. They only do that if the zerg is bad. I understand that you may have won games easily opening phoenix vs mutas and that surely can happen, but it was very game specific and in lots of games if you try to match mutas with phoenixes you are going to have a very hard road ahead of you. dude what? there is no way a zerg could possibly spend all it's larva on just mutas, it would run out of gas. and if it gets a 3rd hatchery it is surely going to have much extra larva at the 3rd hatchery. this is all very game specific though What I'm saying is if zerg opened mutas, you chrono out phoenix out of 2-3 stargates (depending how late you scout it) and wait for his harass. Once he comes you can literally just chase and shoot down all his mutas and then just simply push his base with 5-6 gates off 2 base. At that point he may have just tossed down his 3rd hatch, thus it is not saturated. You don't need to worry about it because you just can win with your push. Even if they keep their mutas near their base and not harass, I've literally just rammed +1 zealots/sentries + phoenixes into mutaling + crawlers and completely decimate them because you basically are hard countering both his mutas and lings. It is a completely 1-sided battle. I've never tested it specifically but it feels like you need ~2-3x the amount of mutas to his phoenix if you have your phoenix under guardian shield. You have to realize the reason mutaling is effective vs protoss in a straight up battle is because of how weak stalkers are to lings, stalkers low dps and how auto-targeting works. Lings tank damage because the SC2 engine auto-targets the closest unit, which will be the lings, while the expensive mutas get free reign (not to mention lings do well vs stalkers in open field regardless). Similar to how banshee/raven/marine was so effective vs protoss, because of protoss' reliance on stalkers for AA. With the phoenix build time buff protoss players have started to utilize more phoenixes as their AA which have effectively nullifed these army compositions. I don't know what type of openers you do, but if you do the standard 3-gate sentry expand chrono out hallucination right after warpgates for hallucinated phoenix scouts. It should complete just around the time a 2-base zerg will be tossing down his spire (quick 4 gas is also a dead giveaway that he's going mutas). If you spot the spire cancel your robo bay if you are making it and toss down those stargates. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On February 01 2011 03:27 Antimage wrote: Surprisingly enough phoenix control is NOT that easy against a competent zerg player... I spent a game learning phoenix vs muta micro from scratch where a zerg player went 2 base muta with cut econ it takes experience to learn how to micro your phoenixes imo. This game was great practice for me. I lost my first few phoenixes but regained composure, adapted my micro and learned the proper range, acceleration, etc of my phoenixes and eventually built up my phoenix force. ... it comes with experience, try it out (against a friend - someone who actually controls the mutas properly) I will cosign on this as I think its the most accurate post in the whole thread. Maybe if people played with 0 latency would phoenix own mutas. Good zergs can limit your angles and your path and do actual damage. Anyone who thinks the added maneuverability of the phoenix is enough to make them win in fewer numbers is very mistaken or their opponents are playing it wrong. Zerg has the better option of just building a couple of corruptors. Phoenix are awful against corruptor. To the protoss responding to muta with phoenix i have to remind you that you are not zerg, tech switches come at a cost. In my personal opinion the twilight council tech path is superior... blink stalkers into some templar and archons and just attacking. If he has invested so much into mutas that you cant push out without a death ball a twilight council based death ball will beat the everliving shit out of his standing army. The hard part is obviously the timing when it comes to taking a third... I dunno. I just feel zerg is too flexible for you to get a bunch of phoenix. They have both corruptors and hydras which are great vs phoenix and mutas arent half bad if you have a large number of them. Ive seen people get a bunch of VRs hovering over their death ball with some aoe to soften everything up. Its like.. instead of void ray/collossus you go void ray/high templar and the aoe from the storm makes your VRs and odd gateways units clean everything up really quickly regardless of armor type. I dont know.. take my opinion with a grain of salt since getting bumped into masters my PvZ has become a gigantic blur. Working my way up to masters i was owning masters level zergs... since after the promotion theyve been finding new ways to pummel me and make me go "how the eff did you get all that off that amount of bases?". I think im 5 for my last 12 or 13 games... frustrating, | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 01 2011 07:59 Jayrod wrote: I will cosign on this as I think its the most accurate post in the whole thread. Maybe if people played with 0 latency would phoenix own mutas. Good zergs can limit your angles and your path and do actual damage. Anyone who thinks the added maneuverability of the phoenix is enough to make them win in fewer numbers is very mistaken or their opponents are playing it wrong. Zerg has the better option of just building a couple of corruptors. Phoenix are awful against corruptor. To the protoss responding to muta with phoenix i have to remind you that you are not zerg, tech switches come at a cost. In my personal opinion the twilight council tech path is superior... blink stalkers into some templar and archons and just attacking. If he has invested so much into mutas that you cant push out without a death ball a twilight council based death ball will beat the everliving shit out of his standing army. The hard part is obviously the timing when it comes to taking a third... I dunno. I just feel zerg is too flexible for you to get a bunch of phoenix. They have both corruptors and hydras which are great vs phoenix and mutas arent half bad if you have a large number of them. Ive seen people get a bunch of VRs hovering over their death ball with some aoe to soften everything up. Its like.. instead of void ray/collossus you go void ray/high templar and the aoe from the storm makes your VRs and odd gateways units clean everything up really quickly regardless of armor type. I dont know.. take my opinion with a grain of salt since getting bumped into masters my PvZ has become a gigantic blur. Working my way up to masters i was owning masters level zergs... since after the promotion theyve been finding new ways to pummel me and make me go "how the eff did you get all that off that amount of bases?". I think im 5 for my last 12 or 13 games... frustrating, Corruptors are not a counter to phoenix in reality. Corruptors actually do *less* dps to phoenixes than mutas (if you count bounce damage), yet are more expensive. The only thing corruptors do well is tank phoenix damage but it is not hard to micro phoenix around corruptors to hit the mutas since mutas will automatically move in front of the corruptors due to their shorter range and both phoenix and mutas are faster than corruptors. Think of it this way, to add enough corruptors where you would actually beat a pure phoenix army with some mix of muta/corruptors you would have to sacrifice so much in your ground army I would simply push your base with gateway units, kill all your mutas with my phoenix, then run my phoenixes away. You now have some useless flying blobs while my gateway army wrecks your base. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:22 travis wrote: That's kinda the point.. Every time I forget to elaborate the whole post I just see more arguments on top of it. If he has no gas, what can he create? Speedlings? LOL SPEEDLINGS. He's already larvae-blocked (+ gas-blocked) by mutalisks, and now you want him to create speedlings to larvae-block himself more? Maybe roaches (cheap gas cost). Maybe expand and get double gas. All to get locked down by pressure and harassment. You have to transition out of mutalisks in a mutalisk vs phoenix (+stalker?) fight or else you'll lose. Toss doesn't really have to worry much. He can just get mass zealots and spend all his gas on upgrades. That's one way. The zerg won't have enough to defend if he's larvae-blocked. Or, Travis, I can just say this: Can a zerg create a SUITABLE army (not mutalisks), drone to maintain the economy, and create mutalisks for harassment (yes, you read it right, it seems that you love mutalisks or something [or to "match" the phoenix])? On February 01 2011 06:58 travis wrote: well if u know ur opponent is going phoenixes u can harrass just as soon as u outmass the p right? (this is what I've had a couple good zergs do vs me). they just mass the mutas and take bases, put up spores and spines and keep making drones. What kind of game are you playing? Are you playing the 15 nexus macro player or just a 2 stargate 1 base user? If it's the 15 nexus, phoenixes will still come before mutalisks. You can harass all you want, but as long as he has enough gates + cannons he'll win. If you're harassing with your main army (assuming since your post doesn't really tell me what's harassing), then you probably don't have a good enough economy unless you droned early, but this means that you're not going to maintain a superior economy. They can mass mutalisks and take bases (had this done to me many times, but figured it out), but if he's creating that many spores + spines he's still sacrificing his economy. Phoenixes are faster. They can go anywhere they want. Mutalisks are shut down by stalkers in the base. Phoenixes are not shut down by hydras, but they are against infestors, but going infestors just weakens your army. Toss can expand if he has phoenixes + gateway army when he's ready, and he can just take down any expansion he wants. If you try to base-race it won't matter, phoenixes will be there in a sec. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On February 01 2011 08:10 Skyro wrote: Corruptors are not a counter to phoenix in reality. Corruptors actually do *less* dps to phoenixes than mutas (if you count bounce damage), yet are more expensive. The only thing corruptors do well is tank phoenix damage but it is not hard to micro phoenix around corruptors to hit the mutas since mutas will automatically move in front of the corruptors due to their shorter range and both phoenix and mutas are faster than corruptors. Think of it this way, to add enough corruptors where you would actually beat a pure phoenix army with some mix of muta/corruptors you would have to sacrifice so much in your ground army I would simply push your base with gateway units, kill all your mutas with my phoenix, then run my phoenixes away. You now have some useless flying blobs while my gateway army wrecks your base. I would argue that microing phoenix around corruptors to hit key targets while doing everything you need to be doing to win a game/battle requires a level of apm unseen in either BW or SC2. At some point its not worth the micro to avoid corruptors and do 15 things at once. Phoenix require alot of attention to micro "perfectly". Corruptors are great vs. them. They do less dps than mutas, but take fuck all for damage while mutas get shredded. They also can ignore the phoenix and still burn down your collossus. Corruptors cost the exact same as phoenix if im not mistaken. IMO phoenix are alot like mutas in the sense that... in most cases they are not best served fighting with your army. If they are there to protect collossus in PvT thats one thing, but vs zerg void rays are 100% better in a battle situation for the simple fact that corruptors exist. Having said that i think a savvy zerg could stop the voidray/collossus ball using a fuckton of mutas. There are other ways that phoenix are nothing like mutas though... harassment unit... sure thats great... but whats the absolute BEST response to phoenix? Its not a unit... its just expanding ALOT. Mass phoenix is going to delay his aggression a great deal and you will be able to just outmacro on most maps. Best response to mass muta... either attack before he gets them or make an army that can kill all his mutas and any followup... muta cant win base race. Best response to phoenix... expand alot and spread alot of creep. OT: Its perfectly normal to struggle microing phoenix against muta... the way I best improved my phoenix micro is playing the bigger team games... like 3s or 4s... tell your team you're going mass phoenix...get a shitload of phoenix and fly around constantly keeping your resources low. Its actually fun. You will take some build order losses for sure, but not very often. If you start getting your phoenix fleet rolling you will get tons of practice and really see how powerful they can be. Alternatively, I would also do the same things with mutas. Having a firm grasp of muta control will help you control your phoenix around them. It worked for me. I have really solid muta and phoenix control thanks to knowing both sides of the equation. | ||
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bobucles
410 Posts
One mistake I see is that Zerg players hit with FG and then immediately charge in. Wait it out for a bit, let the damage soak in over a couple of doses. They aren't going anywhere. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9107 Posts
Any good z will just stop chasing you when they see you start to shoot/run, then if you move to reengage they move back towards you. Seeing as phoenix having only ONE more range than mutas it's pretty hard to actually micro it that effectively. | ||
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