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So I've started going 11overpool into +1 speedling baneling, here's the build order,
11 o-lord
11 pool
13 gas
15 queen
18 evo chamber
17 o-lord
I scout around 11 or 12, depending on the map, the evo chamber finishes just as you get to 100 gas, get immediate +1. Next hundred gas goes to speed, so they finish at the same time, right around the 6 minute mark. Depending on what I scout I'll add a baneling nest with the next 50 gas. I get 19 drones, 16 on mins and 3 on gas. From there get lings until the upgrades finish, you can be in his base right around 6 minutes with 20ish lings, or up to 6 banelings and 14ish lings. I'll expand as I attack and depending on how well the attack goes either continue making lings to follow up or pull back and drone. It works very well against FE and does alright against 1 base play as well, the timing for it hits pretty well. Below are the last 8 games I played on ladder, 2200 - 2500 diamond players, I only lost the last one, though it actually occurred in the middle of the games listed. All in all this has become my new favorite ZvZ opening, so let me know what you think.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130919-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
14 pool/gas scouts evo chamber gets baneling nest
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130920-1v1-zerg-shakuras-plateau
14 pool/gas 18 roach 7rr
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130921-1v1-zerg-metalopolis
14 gas/pool 21 hatch into roach
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130922-1v1-zerg-shakuras-plateau
15 hatch 14 pool, 30 minute game
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130925-1v1-zerg-metalopolis
+1 attack 1 base roach
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130926-1v1-zerg-shakuras-plateau
14hatch 15pool into roach
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130927-1v1-zerg-scrap-station
14hatch 13pool into roach
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130923-1v1-zerg-shakuras-plateau
15 hatch 14 pool into roach, this is the one I lost, I think because I didn't push into his main like I did in the 30 minute game above.
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Awesome build, the +1 makes ling battles one-side and helps lings a lot vs roach. Can also choose to throw down a roach warren/do +1 ranged instead for a similarly timed attack with roaches.
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I've lost to this build once, it was surprisingly quite effective.
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I'm definitely giving this a shot. I usually go fast +1 roaches and tech to lair and expand a bit later, but my opponent always fast expands and somehow manages to get the same number of roaches as me + speed for his lings and a good amount of lings just as his 2nd hatch finished.
I stopped going Ling, Bane against the FE and roach play because he always gets roaches in time. So I'll give you the heads-up if this has as much succession as you say :B
are the subtitles to your games are what the opponent did or you?
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This build does especially well against speedling expands and hatch firsts if he transitions into roaches after. You need a ton of banelings to hold off the hordes of speedlings that, effectively, beat yours.
The only gripe I have is that when I just get a ton of banelings up, that I can kill your lings just as well as your banes can kill mine, and defend with them. That however doesn't matter much since you don't give up mapcontroll and can drone up and defend yourself. But against roaches this build is almost a straight up buildorder win, thats how good it is.
Personally I preffer using the gas to get my roaches up faster, rather than getting a melee upgrade that wont help me out once my opponents roach numbers get too high. Thats not to say that this is bad though, just a personal prefferance  .
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I used to use a variation on this build in my zvz, but moved away from it because if the opponent goes banelings in opposition, you lose, plain and simple. Micro wars are no fun.
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Diamond Zerg here:
(Disclaimer: Was not able to watch replay; the following text is based on experience from ZvZs doing mostly (90%) 14G14P Speed/Bane)
One of the more common openers in ZvZ (speedlings very importent) should totally WTFBBQ your build. (i only saw the speed then +1 variation on the ladder until now, maybe yours too, idk..)
14G14P Speed/Bane: @ 4:50 2-6 Banes can be ready (at your ramp or in your base) @4:55 Speed is done, 15s later more zerglings are coming. Seriously, i dont see how you are going to survive that. Trying to kill banes without speed isnt fun if there are a few slings guarding them.
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On January 28 2011 04:10 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Diamond Zerg here:
(Disclaimer: Was not able to watch replay; the following text is based on experience from ZvZs doing mostly (90%) 14G14P Speed/Bane)
One of the more common openers in ZvZ (speedlings very importent) should totally WTFBBQ your build. (i only saw the speed then +1 variation on the ladder until now, maybe yours too, idk..)
14G14P Speed/Bane: @ 4:50 2-6 Banes can be ready (at your ramp or in your base) @4:55 Speed is done, 15s later more zerglings are coming. Seriously, i dont see how you are going to survive that. Trying to kill banes without speed isnt fun if there are a few slings guarding them.
Building placement and a few spines should be able to hold it off until my baneling nest finishes, then it won't matter that I don't have speedlings yet. That's all in theory I haven't run into a baneling opening except the one that went baneling after scouting me and canceling his roach warren.
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Jaime
Thanks for the replays. I've recently been doing this with pure +1 speedling and having success, albeit at a lower level. It is surprising how effectively the upgrade lets the lings deal with roaches.
I've only had problems against players who blocked their ramp with roaches. What do you suggest in that situation? Enjoy the map control and drone up? Would you be worried about what was going on in his base? Sacrifice an overlord?
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On January 28 2011 04:40 thisillusion wrote:
Jaime
Thanks for the replays. I've recently been doing this with pure +1 speedling and having success, albeit at a lower level. It is surprising how effectively the upgrade lets the lings deal with roaches.
I've only had problems against players who blocked their ramp with roaches. What do you suggest in that situation? Enjoy the map control and drone up? Would you be worried about what was going on in his base? Sacrifice an overlord?
He aint getting his natural if hes blocking his ramp. Expand and get roaches.
Few amounts of roaches + speedlings beat more roaches. ESPECIALLY with +1 melee.
The only thing I run into that kills me is when someone tricks me with going 1base, putting up spinecrawlers and going a quick lair. They always trick me into thinking its a spire coming up, but infact its a huge +1 roach push. You should definitely scout their base with an overlord, even if you lose it.
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On January 28 2011 04:40 thisillusion wrote:
Jaime
Thanks for the replays. I've recently been doing this with pure +1 speedling and having success, albeit at a lower level. It is surprising how effectively the upgrade lets the lings deal with roaches.
I've only had problems against players who blocked their ramp with roaches. What do you suggest in that situation? Enjoy the map control and drone up? Would you be worried about what was going on in his base? Sacrifice an overlord?
Two options really, one use your nearby o-lord to see how many roaches he has, if it's only 3 then get 7 banelings and kill him, cause he's likely teching up behind that. You can do it with 6 if you bring your lings next to the ramp so they take the roach shot so you don't lose a baneling, but obviously that's more micro intensive, because you don't want to get in the way of the banelings. Two, you should already have your expansion being made, get lair and then overseer to see what he's doing with lair tech.
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If the opponent is trying to kill your lings with banelings, would it be better to get carapace instead? I can't micro my lings properly to get those banelings.
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On January 28 2011 07:26 Torte de Lini wrote:
If the opponent is trying to kill your lings with banelings, would it be better to get carapace instead? I can't micro my lings properly to get those banelings.
It'd be great but you have to start the upgrade before even the earliest baneling nest. I do tend to get the carapace upgrade if they do get banelings.
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you'd have to scout the opening baneling nest very very early to get carapace instead of attack with how fast the +1 goes up in this BO. Getting speed first would delay the +1 but would give you more scouting information on what theyre going. I dont know the timing very well for the build, if you see a warren or baneling nest going down before your +1 goes down or not
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I've been doing 14g14p with evo at ~30 gas, then +1, speed, and if you've scouted bling nest also a bling nest (otherwise pull drones off gas and mass a bunch of lings and harrass while expanding). There are a few threads about this opening (not with 11pool though), one of them is titled "Hate ZvZ? Try this"
It usually beats hatch first or delayed speedling or speedling/bling pressure. It easily beats 5RR, 7RR, and similarly early roach pushes, just make sure you have enough lings when he arrives. If I've FE'd after speed, and he pushes with roaches, let the natural hatch take a few volleys until you've massed enough speedlings.
What really seems like a build order win against this is very fast banelings -- if they skip ling speed and go straight for the baneling nest, with 8-10 lings hidden somewhere near your base that morph into banelings as soon as their nest is done.
I really hate fighting that as zerg. If they're smart and get >4 banelings, you're usually dead unless you get very lucky (or they're particularly bad) in the micro fight. 2-4 banelings you can usually take on with a few lings + queen + crawler, and if you hold off the first push you're in good shape since you've got a baneling nest too that'll finish soon.
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Your speed finishes about a minute after 14g14p pools speed, which is already very problematic. Now you also get your baneling nest very late, which means you will have problems defending against banelings..
This build could have some uses if the opponent is just very passive at the start or does not get a baneling nest. But this is not something i'd count on in highlevel play.. most people play ZvZ very aggressive :D
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interesting anyone fancy doing games to test it out?
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I've been doing this for a while and roach into expand or fast hatch seem to be by far the most common builds you run up against. This strat owns both of them. If they only use 3 to 4 roaches to block the ramp but don't reinforce them immediatly you can just whittle them down with your lings. Even in cramped quarters they do good damage and you just have so many more than him. If they have 6+ back off and just contain though always check to make sure their wall is tight. Lings can slip through even the smallest cracks. On open ground +1 lings decimate roaches.
I personally don't make banelings so I use my third 100 gas to start a lair and then get a second gas. This is in prep to add mutas to the mix. You have so much gas going lings only. If they are defending with roaches they are burning most of their gas and when your mutas show up it's game over.
I haven't run into anyone yet who does speed banes. Those definitaly would be a big issue. Most people do a 14 gas 14 pool and a normal baneling timing if they go banelings. In those cases your 20 lings show up right around the time their first banes are ready. A little micro and you will come out ahead and then clean up. No strat is perfect but this one has me winning about 90% of my ZvZ. Now if I could just get my ZvT and ZvP up that high.
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EPT
