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[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Leyra
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1222 Posts
April 07 2011 05:52 GMT
#81
I never saw this the first time you posted, amazingly awesomely fantastical OP So cool, makes visualizing really easy with the really neat diagrams!
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
April 07 2011 12:36 GMT
#82
On April 06 2011 13:33 TimeSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2011 09:58 iChau wrote:
How much of an extra advantage would you get if you have a pure zealot, a couple of sentries, and 2-3 colossi and you attack in these situations:

a) You just flank with your whole army from behind (he has 5-6 siege tanks, and 2 bunkers).

b) You half half and attack from 2 sides.

Obviously, b is better, but I just wanna check for both options, how much of an advantage do I get from those?


I'm not sure how to quantify the advantage, to address your question of "how much" specifically. But you also need to keep in mind that there is no real "back" to a unit in Starcraft 2 because all units are aware and have vision in a 360 radius. There is only a "back" to a formation that is oriented in a specific direction.

Option (b), the pincer, is far superior in this scenario. You are ...

(1) Reducing his ability to maneuver by closing from two angles.

(2) Dispersing the Siege Tank fire in multiple directions instead of focusing the splash on one big ball of units

(3) You achieve the "full surround" about twice as fast as you would with a full frontal charge (even if it is from the "back").

(4) You create the psychological impact on your opponent of being surrounded. This can cause him to scramble and fumble at the controls.

Hope this helps.


So it's worth it even if you have slow lots. I see, thanks. :D

I actually lost twice to this terran because of positioning. He abused the high ground from the low ground with medivacs and siege tanks, and it was annoying, especially at the taldarim altar's natural. I think I should have moved out fast so I can pincer him before he scans my army, and this also makes it so he doesn't know where I am.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
April 07 2011 13:40 GMT
#83
On April 07 2011 21:36 iChau wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2011 13:33 TimeSpiral wrote:
On April 06 2011 09:58 iChau wrote:
How much of an extra advantage would you get if you have a pure zealot, a couple of sentries, and 2-3 colossi and you attack in these situations:

a) You just flank with your whole army from behind (he has 5-6 siege tanks, and 2 bunkers).

b) You half half and attack from 2 sides.

Obviously, b is better, but I just wanna check for both options, how much of an advantage do I get from those?


I'm not sure how to quantify the advantage, to address your question of "how much" specifically. But you also need to keep in mind that there is no real "back" to a unit in Starcraft 2 because all units are aware and have vision in a 360 radius. There is only a "back" to a formation that is oriented in a specific direction.

Option (b), the pincer, is far superior in this scenario. You are ...

(1) Reducing his ability to maneuver by closing from two angles.

(2) Dispersing the Siege Tank fire in multiple directions instead of focusing the splash on one big ball of units

(3) You achieve the "full surround" about twice as fast as you would with a full frontal charge (even if it is from the "back").

(4) You create the psychological impact on your opponent of being surrounded. This can cause him to scramble and fumble at the controls.

Hope this helps.


So it's worth it even if you have slow lots. I see, thanks. :D

I actually lost twice to this terran because of positioning. He abused the high ground from the low ground with medivacs and siege tanks, and it was annoying, especially at the taldarim altar's natural. I think I should have moved out fast so I can pincer him before he scans my army, and this also makes it so he doesn't know where I am.


Well, from a gameplay perspective, I think you are considerably higher level than I. But, to address your example, there are a few tactics you can use here.

That particular tank push is very common and powerful on T'DA. So, park a probe at the end of his natural's ramp. The moment he moves out, set up your Pincer attack. If it's the 2rax-reactor tank push it's getting to your base before charge or thermal lance unless you are doing some crazy rush. It's rarely ideal to attack into siege lines (obviously) but defensively you have to.

The tactical goal for this Pincer is to attack at the moment, or just slightly before, his tanks are activating siege mode and the SCVs are working on the bunkers. It's important in a Pincer that the two divisions of units are roughly the same size. So, take the number of gates you have into account when you're setting up the maneuver (overload the far team and warp in for the close team).

Both tanks and marines are really, really bad versus Zealots w/ Guardian shield. Your Terran opponent knows this, which is why he's leveraging the terrain to his advantage and constructing bunkers because the siege tanks remove much of the mobility of the marines. If you have robo-tech, even better. Spot the "kill zone" with an observer so you can see the exact siege time to 1a2a into his force.

I can almost guarantee you will crush the army losing almost nothing (assuming it's the push I'm talking about). As the game progress and the tank numbers get bigger this changes a little bit.

Sorry for such a long response :/
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
Jagd
Profile Joined April 2011
United States71 Posts
April 07 2011 18:30 GMT
#84
First about the 4.5 'exposure' of spread versus single balled units. As was pointed out yes the 4.5 comes from a particular split, and you can use derivatives to get the accurate amount for arbitrary splits. However someone complained that you didn't take into account creep, speed, etc., and I don't think this is a problem since you're talking about 'exposure' and not about 'effectiveness.'

Second, about concave vs. ball battles you state:
You can visualize this by looking at Fig B.2 and seeing how all the firepower is concentrated into a single point. Additionally, the arc maximizes the number of troops able to engage because they are in range of the enemy's front line.

I think really what's important is the combination of these points. I.e. the fact that at the initial moment when you engage if you have a concave to your opponents ball then the first 2-3 shots your units fire will be focused on his front units while he is moving in to get all his units attacking, so
a) he is missing shots from his rear units if they are out of range (but not from his front units if he can move/stop correctly)
b) damage is spread unevenly over his army.

Point b) is the interesting point because it's saying that in general it's worse to loose 500 life on 5 units and 0 life on another 5(group A) than 500 life on 10 (group B). Suppose we're talking about ZvZ so the average life of a unit is 145, and suppose the average DPS of a unit is 10, also suppose all units are in range of each other. Suppose the effective DPS (EDPS) of a unit is proportional to the unit's base DPS times the percentage of health they are at.
EDPS=k_1 * DPS_base * Life_remaining/Life_initial
≈k_2 * DPS_base * Life_remaining/Life_initial*{1 if a target is in range, 0 otherwise}
≈k_3 * DPS_base * Life_remaining/Life_initial*Number_of_targets in range
The intuition for EDPS is that the effective amount of damage a unit does depends both on how much damage per second they can do, and how many seconds they are alive for to do that damage, and whether they can attack something. Whether the above formula for EDPS is correct though would require some statistical analysis of simulation results (i.e. maybe it's DPS_base^2 *c_1 +Life_rm/Life_0 * DPS_base^0.5, If someone is interested in testing this with me, and is good with the map editor, let me know.) Then for group A if 500 damage is spread evenly among the 5, then each has 31% HP left, so the EDPS of the group is 5*0.31*10+5*1.0*10=65.5, while for group B each has 65.5% HP left so the EDPS of five of those units is 10*0.65.5. So in fact whether damage is spread or not depends on whether EDPS is a linear function. In the definition I gave it is linear, so in this case it doesn't matter. You could argue that if you have a concave it is easier to focus fire with small groups of your concave so that for group B the 500 damage will be spread evenly, while for group A it will not be spread evenly (i.e. 3 roaches dead in group A, 7 full health), but again this will only make a difference if EDPS is not linear, in fact if you focus fire and overkill then you actually hurt yourself no matter whether EDPS is linear or not. Thus for now we should only say that concave is more effective because it is likely that if you have a concave more of your units have an enemy in range.

Third, about pincer/flank you state:
If you can Pincer your opponent's army (aka the Double Envelope) you will likely create an offensive advantage in the encounter.

Bearing the previous argument in mind, if two armies are of equal size and equal range then having a pincer will not gave you an advantage no matter whether EDPS is linear or not. The case where flanking is most common is for Zerg, because flanking allows melee units to take shorter paths in order to get into position, which increases their EDPS as defined above, and that is the only and most important element of flanking. Of course flanking can prevent kiting and retreat as well, but those are tactical considerations and not properties inherent to deciding who will win in formation A vs formation B.

Finally, thank you for this thread, it's provoked me to think about this in my own gameplay:
-infesters/ultras and cracklings (HTs/Collosus and chargelots) make for a powerful combination because the formation that is most effective against one is countered by the other.
-in zvz crackling/infester will be superior to roach/infester once both sides have enough fungal growths available and the crackling player can set up good flanks.
-roach/hydra is superior to pure roach if used defensively, because defensively hydras can be positioned such that they will attack before roaches in their position would attack; offensively since hydras are slower they may not get into position quickly enough so their added range won't be a bonus, and roaches have slightly higher EDPS than hydras.
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
April 07 2011 19:34 GMT
#85
On April 08 2011 03:30 Jagd wrote:
First about the 4.5 'exposure' of spread versus single balled units. As was pointed out yes the 4.5 comes from a particular split, and you can use derivatives to get the accurate amount for arbitrary splits. However someone complained that you didn't take into account creep, speed, etc., and I don't think this is a problem since you're talking about 'exposure' and not about 'effectiveness.'

Second, about concave vs. ball battles you state:
Show nested quote +
You can visualize this by looking at Fig B.2 and seeing how all the firepower is concentrated into a single point. Additionally, the arc maximizes the number of troops able to engage because they are in range of the enemy's front line.

I think really what's important is the combination of these points. I.e. the fact that at the initial moment when you engage if you have a concave to your opponents ball then the first 2-3 shots your units fire will be focused on his front units while he is moving in to get all his units attacking, so
a) he is missing shots from his rear units if they are out of range (but not from his front units if he can move/stop correctly)
b) damage is spread unevenly over his army.

Point b) is the interesting point because it's saying that in general it's worse to loose 500 life on 5 units and 0 life on another 5(group A) than 500 life on 10 (group B). Suppose we're talking about ZvZ so the average life of a unit is 145, and suppose the average DPS of a unit is 10, also suppose all units are in range of each other. Suppose the effective DPS (EDPS) of a unit is proportional to the unit's base DPS times the percentage of health they are at.
EDPS=k_1 * DPS_base * Life_remaining/Life_initial
≈k_2 * DPS_base * Life_remaining/Life_initial*{1 if a target is in range, 0 otherwise}
≈k_3 * DPS_base * Life_remaining/Life_initial*Number_of_targets in range
The intuition for EDPS is that the effective amount of damage a unit does depends both on how much damage per second they can do, and how many seconds they are alive for to do that damage, and whether they can attack something. Whether the above formula for EDPS is correct though would require some statistical analysis of simulation results (i.e. maybe it's DPS_base^2 *c_1 +Life_rm/Life_0 * DPS_base^0.5, If someone is interested in testing this with me, and is good with the map editor, let me know.) Then for group A if 500 damage is spread evenly among the 5, then each has 31% HP left, so the EDPS of the group is 5*0.31*10+5*1.0*10=65.5, while for group B each has 65.5% HP left so the EDPS of five of those units is 10*0.65.5. So in fact whether damage is spread or not depends on whether EDPS is a linear function. In the definition I gave it is linear, so in this case it doesn't matter. You could argue that if you have a concave it is easier to focus fire with small groups of your concave so that for group B the 500 damage will be spread evenly, while for group A it will not be spread evenly (i.e. 3 roaches dead in group A, 7 full health), but again this will only make a difference if EDPS is not linear, in fact if you focus fire and overkill then you actually hurt yourself no matter whether EDPS is linear or not. Thus for now we should only say that concave is more effective because it is likely that if you have a concave more of your units have an enemy in range.

Third, about pincer/flank you state:
Show nested quote +
If you can Pincer your opponent's army (aka the Double Envelope) you will likely create an offensive advantage in the encounter.

Bearing the previous argument in mind, if two armies are of equal size and equal range then having a pincer will not gave you an advantage no matter whether EDPS is linear or not. The case where flanking is most common is for Zerg, because flanking allows melee units to take shorter paths in order to get into position, which increases their EDPS as defined above, and that is the only and most important element of flanking. Of course flanking can prevent kiting and retreat as well, but those are tactical considerations and not properties inherent to deciding who will win in formation A vs formation B.

Finally, thank you for this thread, it's provoked me to think about this in my own gameplay:
-infesters/ultras and cracklings (HTs/Collosus and chargelots) make for a powerful combination because the formation that is most effective against one is countered by the other.
-in zvz crackling/infester will be superior to roach/infester once both sides have enough fungal growths available and the crackling player can set up good flanks.
-roach/hydra is superior to pure roach if used defensively, because defensively hydras can be positioned such that they will attack before roaches in their position would attack; offensively since hydras are slower they may not get into position quickly enough so their added range won't be a bonus, and roaches have slightly higher EDPS than hydras.


Welcome to the community and thank you for such an elaborate contribution to the thread!

In regards to your thoughts about the double envelope (pincer) maneuver of equal army sizes.

Bearing the previous argument in mind, if two armies are of equal size and equal range then having a pincer will not gave you an advantage no matter whether EDPS is linear or not.


That's quite a conditional statement, but the logic is also a little fuzzy. The idea of the pincer is to take advantage of your opponents positional orientation. They are most likely moving perpendicular to your double envelope. This puts them at a severe disadvantage even if the army is identicaly because the pincer has to charge formations attacking a perpendicularly oriented marching order.

This may not have a direct effect on eDPS but it has the potential to produce profound effects such as:
(1) Surprise.

(2) Limiting your opponents ability to maneuver

(3) There units will likely not be oriented in such a way to fight a two front battle. Precious cargo (siege Tanks, Colossus, Infesters, Hydras, Templars, whatever, will now be on one "side" of the attack instead of in the back.

(4) Getting blitzed like this has a psychological impact on your opponent. Starcraft 2 is as much a game of psychology as it is tactics, strategy, and mechanics. If your opponent was planning on a charge, attacking a certain location in a certain formation, and is all of the sudden faced with a double envelope pincer engagement he is at a disadvantage while you are executing the maneuver you planned for, giving you advantage in the engagement. In other words; he is forced to react instantly, while you are executing a premeditated attack pattern.

(5) Finally, DPS manipulation is an obvious part of any tactical maneuver in Starcraft 2 but there are other major factors that should be considered when planning things like this.

Thanks again!
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
April 07 2011 21:13 GMT
#86
So I quickly glanced through and didn't see anything about this, but I'm curious to know the difference between two bunched of armies engaging and one army engaging with a good arc and the other just in a ball. So if they both engage with say...30 marines, how many marines does the army that was in an arc have left at the end? Yeah I could test this myself, but I'm at work
Apologize.
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
April 07 2011 21:58 GMT
#87
On April 07 2011 22:40 TimeSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2011 21:36 iChau wrote:
On April 06 2011 13:33 TimeSpiral wrote:
On April 06 2011 09:58 iChau wrote:
How much of an extra advantage would you get if you have a pure zealot, a couple of sentries, and 2-3 colossi and you attack in these situations:

a) You just flank with your whole army from behind (he has 5-6 siege tanks, and 2 bunkers).

b) You half half and attack from 2 sides.

Obviously, b is better, but I just wanna check for both options, how much of an advantage do I get from those?


I'm not sure how to quantify the advantage, to address your question of "how much" specifically. But you also need to keep in mind that there is no real "back" to a unit in Starcraft 2 because all units are aware and have vision in a 360 radius. There is only a "back" to a formation that is oriented in a specific direction.

Option (b), the pincer, is far superior in this scenario. You are ...

(1) Reducing his ability to maneuver by closing from two angles.

(2) Dispersing the Siege Tank fire in multiple directions instead of focusing the splash on one big ball of units

(3) You achieve the "full surround" about twice as fast as you would with a full frontal charge (even if it is from the "back").

(4) You create the psychological impact on your opponent of being surrounded. This can cause him to scramble and fumble at the controls.

Hope this helps.


So it's worth it even if you have slow lots. I see, thanks. :D

I actually lost twice to this terran because of positioning. He abused the high ground from the low ground with medivacs and siege tanks, and it was annoying, especially at the taldarim altar's natural. I think I should have moved out fast so I can pincer him before he scans my army, and this also makes it so he doesn't know where I am.


Well, from a gameplay perspective, I think you are considerably higher level than I. But, to address your example, there are a few tactics you can use here.

That particular tank push is very common and powerful on T'DA. So, park a probe at the end of his natural's ramp. The moment he moves out, set up your Pincer attack. If it's the 2rax-reactor tank push it's getting to your base before charge or thermal lance unless you are doing some crazy rush. It's rarely ideal to attack into siege lines (obviously) but defensively you have to.

The tactical goal for this Pincer is to attack at the moment, or just slightly before, his tanks are activating siege mode and the SCVs are working on the bunkers. It's important in a Pincer that the two divisions of units are roughly the same size. So, take the number of gates you have into account when you're setting up the maneuver (overload the far team and warp in for the close team).

Both tanks and marines are really, really bad versus Zealots w/ Guardian shield. Your Terran opponent knows this, which is why he's leveraging the terrain to his advantage and constructing bunkers because the siege tanks remove much of the mobility of the marines. If you have robo-tech, even better. Spot the "kill zone" with an observer so you can see the exact siege time to 1a2a into his force.

I can almost guarantee you will crush the army losing almost nothing (assuming it's the push I'm talking about). As the game progress and the tank numbers get bigger this changes a little bit.

Sorry for such a long response :/


No, this is good! Thanks.

I been losing a lot, mostly to all-ins and positioning. I can usually out-macro the opponent, but I have bad decision- making.

When I see his army move out, I go, "Oh shit" and I start turtling at my ramp, which leads to my demise eventually because of his fortified position outside my base.

He didn't have a lot of tanks, just 3, raining hell on my natural probe line with 2 bunkers and a missile turret defending the front with his main bio army.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
April 08 2011 14:52 GMT
#88
^ I've updated the banner and links to other relevant Guides.

Enjoy!
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
April 08 2011 15:25 GMT
#89
One of the best things about blink stalkers is the way you can rearrange them to get an arc.
SC2 Mapmaker
Jagd
Profile Joined April 2011
United States71 Posts
April 09 2011 19:24 GMT
#90
It seems the EDPS I gave above is incorrect, this is from tests of 8 hydras against 8 roaches where all hydras were in range of each roach and vice-versa. The typical result was 1 hydra remaining with full HP and 1 hydra with 20/80 HP. However by the above EDPS the roaches should have won.

I'm trying to come up with a better formula. Again if anyone is good with the editor or has experience with model selection and is interested in this, send me a message.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
June 13 2011 20:25 GMT
#91
--- Nuked ---
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
June 13 2011 20:37 GMT
#92
Im glad you did. I reread and kicked myself for not paying more attention the first time. ;p
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
Eleaven
Profile Joined September 2010
772 Posts
July 06 2011 10:19 GMT
#93
Great read for anyone. thanks so much for your work.
Good1
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Russian Federation138 Posts
July 14 2011 12:23 GMT
#94
Geat job!!
mathemagician1986
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany549 Posts
July 14 2011 13:05 GMT
#95
Never in the field of Starcraft conflict was so much owed by so many to TimeSpiral.
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
July 17 2011 14:54 GMT
#96
I'm humbled.

You guys are too kind!
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
Kiaro
Profile Joined July 2011
United States75 Posts
July 18 2011 00:11 GMT
#97
If this is true, then why do all protosses move their collosus/stalker army around in a big ball instead of spreading it out?
TimeSpiral
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1010 Posts
July 18 2011 14:06 GMT
#98
On July 18 2011 09:11 Kiaro wrote:
If this is true, then why do all protosses move their collosus/stalker army around in a big ball instead of spreading it out?


If what is true?

Are you asking if the analysis of the formations is correct, or if using positional and marching tactics is useful?

If I were to guess why the Deathball is just a-clicked around in a big ball I'd say because it's really the easiest way to do it.
[G] Positioning, Formations, and Tactics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187892
Zeweig
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden189 Posts
August 02 2011 15:12 GMT
#99
pls link some replays as well gr8 guide
Commentator for Esports Heaven, covering mainly European and Chinese events. I do observing and writing on the side.
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