On August 03 2012 01:11 haaz wrote: 2) what is the proper response to 6pool when going FFE?
2. Wall off with gateways, build another cannon. Cancel gateways before they finish if they're not needed anymore.
I'm curious, I thought the response to that was to build a Pylon at your main and put a cannon there? Am I out of date? Somehow it feels like I'm being sarcastic when I read that but I mean it as a serious qustion, I'm Zerg and random a bit but I suck with Toss.
You cant mine at the natural if you cannon your main. I prefer to wall completely if i get 6-pooled.
You can't possibly wall natural in time unless everything works out nicely. (very VERY small choke, terrible opponent, scouting early) Practically, it is impossible to wall natural when facing 6pool as FFE player.
You can wall natural, although I typo'd about the gateways. An extra pylon is all that's needed. Below White-Ra demonstrates this against a 7-pool, but it's doable against a 6-pool as well (you have enough minerals to get the pylon up just in time).
Very interesting video. I guess "can't possibly wall natural in time" was too strong of a statement. I would instead say, "Walling natural involves more risk and requires exact timings." 6 Pool gets lings about 9 seconds earlier than 7 Pool. So in the video, 6 pool would have broken in to kill cannon in time as Protoss didn't have enough money to wall. It is probably map dependant. Timing window is that narrow. Pulling several workers to block the choke might buy enough time until cannon finishes.
Probably it comes down to risk taking. Attempting to wall natural = 200% advantage or Loss Attempting to cannon at main =120% advantage guaranteed
In general, how does zerg hold attacks? I always thought the zerg needed to see the attack coming well in advance and prepare specifically for it, but sometimes it seems like zerg players have blanket strategies that can hold most attacks, barring specific, very powerful attacks, like immortal all-ins. Also, it has seemed that certain attacks can be held just by reacting as soon as you see the attack rolling out. I am by no means a good zerg player, though, so I'm probably screwing this up horribly, but either way, I have been seeking to learn zerg for ages, but the unpredictability of the lower leagues confounds me. I know I can get out of them just through mechanics, but getting smashed by a simple "I feel like moving out right about now" bio attack while I was droning or dying to a 2 colossus push for the uptenth time tells me that strategy is also something I need.
On August 03 2012 09:32 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: In general, how does zerg hold attacks? I always thought the zerg needed to see the attack coming well in advance and prepare specifically for it, but sometimes it seems like zerg players have blanket strategies that can hold most attacks, barring specific, very powerful attacks, like immortal all-ins. Also, it has seemed that certain attacks can be held just by reacting as soon as you see the attack rolling out. I am by no means a good zerg player, though, so I'm probably screwing this up horribly, but either way, I have been seeking to learn zerg for ages, but the unpredictability of the lower leagues confounds me. I know I can get out of them just through mechanics, but getting smashed by a simple "I feel like moving out right about now" bio attack while I was droning or dying to a 2 colossus push for the uptenth time tells me that strategy is also something I need.
I felt the same was as you when I was lower down, but with experience and better macro, you'll smile when some bronzie does a 12 minute 2 collosus push with a small gateway army...and you are at 200/200 with roach/ling. ZvT, 6 queens + reactive lings can hold most all-ins that hit before lair tech, but don't quote me on this I'm terribad vs Terran
ZvP is all a game of figuring out what your opponent's doing. Scout for an FFE, if that happens then do the stephano-style roach max (tons of TL guides on the subject). If he goes for 1base shenanigans and doesn't expand by 6:00, I'd make lings + spines and you SHOULD hold. Always get gas against 1 base Protoss
Honestly what got me from bronze to diamond was reading all the Zerg guides, and trying to memorize scouting patterns! A Protoss who takes 3 gas before 6:30 or 7:00 is usually going stargate/DT, 2 gas is a gateway all in or, 4 is either double stargate or some robo expand or all in.
There's simple things like this for all matchups! It's a memorization game and knowing the proper reaction! No gas at natural by 6:30? Roach warren + evo chamber NOW Just read guides util you remember them! Make sure to play a lot too, and you'll get much more comfortable in all matchups.
I feel as if this question may not belong here but I couldn't find a better spot for it.
Is the Ice Fisher build still considered relevant? I've been moderately successful in executing it in Gold league, my biggest problem being all-in plays or heavy mid-game Marine balls with Tank and Medivac support. I can usually beat Protoss pressure if I can see it coming and I can just get Roaches out easily but the build is supposed be economically focused and I have to forgo economy to get Roaches which seems kinda counter-productive.
Is the DRG version better than Spanishiwa's?
Also, maybe I should search before I ask this but I'll throw it in anyways. Is there a list of popular timings? Like when DTs can come out or when Banshees or drops can happen?
But I remember watching streams like 1-2 months after release when I just started playing. I was watching a terran player who made a proxy barracks with his scouting scvs at like 5:45 (don't know timing, the in game clock was not invented yet) so he could save a mule and scout using a floating barracks instead. I feel this could be good versus zergs so you can scout without using hellions. But then I figured why do the pros not do this?
On August 03 2012 21:28 Oatsboats wrote: Does random team mmr effect your 1v1 mmr at all?
It does not affect it but it is in relation with it. It uses your 1v1 MMR to provide a starting point for your placing match. If you play some random teams but no 1v1, you won't lose your 1v1 ranking even if you don't play for a couple of season. They interact with each other but they are not the same.
On August 03 2012 22:04 Bojas wrote: I'm not sure if this belongs here:
But I remember watching streams like 1-2 months after release when I just started playing. I was watching a terran player who made a proxy barracks with his scouting scvs at like 5:45 (don't know timing, the in game clock was not invented yet) so he could save a mule and scout using a floating barracks instead. I feel this could be good versus zergs so you can scout without using hellions. But then I figured why do the pros not do this?
A LOT of things changed since that era, from barrac requirement (you did not need a supply depot back then) to the build time of a barrack, the metagame and everything. The main thing why this is not used anymore is because you lose more with that scout than with your scan. Here is the math
Scan = delay mining by 200 minerals Barrack = cost 150 minerals, + downtime of the building SCV (which has to proxy the said rax). The build time is about a minute game time, and with perfect saturation, 1 gathere is 40 mins a minute. You also have the fact that you might lose the barrack to queen's, stalkers, marines...
All in all i think the scan is a better option for scouting
On August 03 2012 22:04 Bojas wrote: I'm not sure if this belongs here:
But I remember watching streams like 1-2 months after release when I just started playing. I was watching a terran player who made a proxy barracks with his scouting scvs at like 5:45 (don't know timing, the in game clock was not invented yet) so he could save a mule and scout using a floating barracks instead. I feel this could be good versus zergs so you can scout without using hellions. But then I figured why do the pros not do this?
A LOT of things changed since that era, from barrac requirement (you did not need a supply depot back then) to the build time of a barrack, the metagame and everything. The main thing why this is not used anymore is because you lose more with that scout than with your scan. Here is the math
Scan = delay mining by 200 minerals Barrack = cost 150 minerals, + downtime of the building SCV (which has to proxy the said rax). The build time is about a minute game time, and with perfect saturation, 1 gathere is 40 mins a minute. You also have the fact that you might lose the barrack to queen's, stalkers, marines...
All in all i think the scan is a better option for scouting
Well yeah but a mule can mine more than 200 minerals right? And you can build this instead of hellions and still get a good scout off. Heck I'd argue that you can see way more with a barracks than you can with a scan.
So that's 190 minerals spent for the barracks which you can afford losing since it's worth less than a scan. It would be bad to lose it versus a patrolling ling when it's getting build. I think you can build it somewhere safe where no patrol would come on most maps though, if it's possible with pylons then why not with a barracks.
Edit: just tested it- a mule on the closest patch on shakuras mines 270 minerals.
On August 03 2012 22:04 Bojas wrote: I'm not sure if this belongs here:
But I remember watching streams like 1-2 months after release when I just started playing. I was watching a terran player who made a proxy barracks with his scouting scvs at like 5:45 (don't know timing, the in game clock was not invented yet) so he could save a mule and scout using a floating barracks instead. I feel this could be good versus zergs so you can scout without using hellions. But then I figured why do the pros not do this?
A LOT of things changed since that era, from barrac requirement (you did not need a supply depot back then) to the build time of a barrack, the metagame and everything. The main thing why this is not used anymore is because you lose more with that scout than with your scan. Here is the math
Scan = delay mining by 200 minerals Barrack = cost 150 minerals, + downtime of the building SCV (which has to proxy the said rax). The build time is about a minute game time, and with perfect saturation, 1 gathere is 40 mins a minute. You also have the fact that you might lose the barrack to queen's, stalkers, marines...
All in all i think the scan is a better option for scouting
Well yeah but a mule can mine more than 200 minerals right? And you can build this instead of hellions and still get a good scout off. Heck I'd argue that you can see way more with a barracks than you can with a scan.
So that's 190 minerals spent for the barracks which you can afford losing since it's worth less than a scan. It would be bad to lose it versus a patrolling ling when it's getting build. I think you can build it somewhere safe where no patrol would come on most maps though, if it's possible with pylons then why not with a barracks.
Edit: just tested it- a mule on the closest patch on shakuras mines 270 minerals.
Yeah but a mule only fasten mining, hence you do not lose any minerals if you use a scan, you just delay their acquisition. As for the barrack, if you lose the barrack (which would certainly happen @ 5:45 min game time, then you lose the 150 minerals and you have a delay of mining that will be about 2 min (construction + travelling time) which end up at about 80 mins. So it's a delay of 270 minerals VS most likely loosing the barrack (150) + a delay of +-80 minerals. In addition, at high level, zerg players scout all over the map with their lings so you also have a chance of losing the said SCV + barrack while it's building.
I agree that purely math based, it could look viable, but it's a high risk for not a lot of reward IMO.
On August 03 2012 22:04 Bojas wrote: I'm not sure if this belongs here:
But I remember watching streams like 1-2 months after release when I just started playing. I was watching a terran player who made a proxy barracks with his scouting scvs at like 5:45 (don't know timing, the in game clock was not invented yet) so he could save a mule and scout using a floating barracks instead. I feel this could be good versus zergs so you can scout without using hellions. But then I figured why do the pros not do this?
A LOT of things changed since that era, from barrac requirement (you did not need a supply depot back then) to the build time of a barrack, the metagame and everything. The main thing why this is not used anymore is because you lose more with that scout than with your scan. Here is the math
Scan = delay mining by 200 minerals Barrack = cost 150 minerals, + downtime of the building SCV (which has to proxy the said rax). The build time is about a minute game time, and with perfect saturation, 1 gathere is 40 mins a minute. You also have the fact that you might lose the barrack to queen's, stalkers, marines...
All in all i think the scan is a better option for scouting
Well yeah but a mule can mine more than 200 minerals right? And you can build this instead of hellions and still get a good scout off. Heck I'd argue that you can see way more with a barracks than you can with a scan.
So that's 190 minerals spent for the barracks which you can afford losing since it's worth less than a scan. It would be bad to lose it versus a patrolling ling when it's getting build. I think you can build it somewhere safe where no patrol would come on most maps though, if it's possible with pylons then why not with a barracks.
Edit: just tested it- a mule on the closest patch on shakuras mines 270 minerals.
Yeah but a mule only fasten mining, hence you do not lose any minerals if you use a scan, you just delay their acquisition. As for the barrack, if you lose the barrack (which would certainly happen @ 5:45 min game time, then you lose the 150 minerals and you have a delay of mining that will be about 2 min (construction + travelling time) which end up at about 80 mins. So it's a delay of 270 minerals VS most likely loosing the barrack (150) + a delay of +-80 minerals. In addition, at high level, zerg players scout all over the map with their lings so you also have a chance of losing the said SCV + barrack while it's building.
I agree that purely math based, it could look viable, but it's a high risk for not a lot of reward IMO.
Hmm I think that's a good conclusion and probably why the pros dont do it. Thanks.
Alright, after many many months of just watching tournaments (I love it, it fascinates me. I'm a fanatic), I've decided to start laddering and actually playing the game.
I know the basics - worker production, taking the natural, macro macro macro, etc. - but there's a very specific part of my game I'm having trouble with in high bronze (as Random) playing against mid/low silver:
Drops.
2-3 full medivacs will constantly wipe out half of to all of my main while my army is preoccupied with the opponent, and at that point I either lose in an ensuing basetrade or pull back far too late to be able to do anything to the medivacs.
So, my question is this: how much of my army - with each race - should I keep in my main to be able to deal Terran drops?
Ive been watching alot of mma and select replays/streams, and ive noticed they hotleu everything but their factories. Why is this? Do they have some button assigned like warpgate such as when you press a button it selects all factories?
On August 05 2012 00:27 gabsonuro wrote: Ive been watching alot of mma and select replays/streams, and ive noticed they hotleu everything but their factories. Why is this? Do they have some button assigned like warpgate such as when you press a button it selects all factories?
Not sure if this is the case or not but many pros will hotkey multiple structures to one key and then tab through the building types.
Guys can you tell me what I did wrong in this http://drop.sc/234033 I just worked my way into gold and I've been doing really bad, I have no idea how to beat zerg w/ marine siege, do you guys have a good mech build I could use? I like relying on macro rather than micro...
On August 03 2012 09:32 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: In general, how does zerg hold attacks? I always thought the zerg needed to see the attack coming well in advance and prepare specifically for it, but sometimes it seems like zerg players have blanket strategies that can hold most attacks, barring specific, very powerful attacks, like immortal all-ins. Also, it has seemed that certain attacks can be held just by reacting as soon as you see the attack rolling out. I am by no means a good zerg player, though, so I'm probably screwing this up horribly, but either way, I have been seeking to learn zerg for ages, but the unpredictability of the lower leagues confounds me. I know I can get out of them just through mechanics, but getting smashed by a simple "I feel like moving out right about now" bio attack while I was droning or dying to a 2 colossus push for the uptenth time tells me that strategy is also something I need.
I felt the same was as you when I was lower down, but with experience and better macro, you'll smile when some bronzie does a 12 minute 2 collosus push with a small gateway army...and you are at 200/200 with roach/ling. ZvT, 6 queens + reactive lings can hold most all-ins that hit before lair tech, but don't quote me on this I'm terribad vs Terran
ZvP is all a game of figuring out what your opponent's doing. Scout for an FFE, if that happens then do the stephano-style roach max (tons of TL guides on the subject). If he goes for 1base shenanigans and doesn't expand by 6:00, I'd make lings + spines and you SHOULD hold. Always get gas against 1 base Protoss
Honestly what got me from bronze to diamond was reading all the Zerg guides, and trying to memorize scouting patterns! A Protoss who takes 3 gas before 6:30 or 7:00 is usually going stargate/DT, 2 gas is a gateway all in or, 4 is either double stargate or some robo expand or all in.
There's simple things like this for all matchups! It's a memorization game and knowing the proper reaction! No gas at natural by 6:30? Roach warren + evo chamber NOW Just read guides util you remember them! Make sure to play a lot too, and you'll get much more comfortable in all matchups.
Do you have links to the better guides or the ones you learned the most from?
EPT
