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On January 02 2012 00:00 Quaterno wrote:Can someone explain to me why, in muta vs muta, +1 carapace is better than +1 attack. Someone made a thread before showing how the attack upgrade works for mutas. The first upgrade brings it from 9/3/1 to 10/4/2 but each subsequent upgrade only adds 1 to the first attack, giving you 11/4/2 and 12/4/2 for +2 and +3 respectively. Obviously anyone can see that the carapace will be better than getting +2 or +3 but +1 attack vs +1 carapace should be equal shouldn't it? The +1 carapace mutas will do 9/3/1 and the +1 attack will do 10/4/2 (-1) giving 9/3/1, meaning that the fight should be equal with equal numbers and full health. This was why I decided that I could go for +1 attack in muta vs muta and then go for carapace and 1/1 should be as good at 0/2 but after a lot of testing it is obvious that the carapace is always superior and I don't understand :S Could someone please enlighten me? 
The attack upgrades only give you a fractional increase in damage for each hit after the first, but the defense upgrades give you a full point of decrease in damage for every hit.
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On January 02 2012 00:15 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
The attack upgrades only give you a fractional increase in damage for each hit after the first, but the defense upgrades give you a full point of decrease in damage for every hit.
I see, thank you, so what is the true value of the attack upgrade after researching +1 if it's not 10/4/2? It must be because of the regeneration of zerg units because against protoss and terran it will always end up being 10/4/2
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Hopefully this is simple enough: In PvZ if you go 1 gate expand into 3gate, is it commonplace to take your 2nd gas at 18-21 supply or do you wait until later? It feels like double gas is the standard, but I've found that going with just 1 gas will allow you to get 2-3 quick sentries with much faster 3gates which just seems better to me. Also this would nullify the effect of gas steals.
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Can someone give me the most effective all-in or rush? I am plat Zerg but I'm bored of playing macro games so I want to cheese and rush people and have fun. It can be any race, doesn't have to be a zerg rush. I know popular cheese and all-ins but I'm asking most effective way. It can be a 2 base all-in too. Ty. ^_^
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why is it that some players do not use control groups 2 and 3?
at blizzcon, i heard one of the casters say that it allows greater control, and i don't really see how. they were talking about digSeleCT. as a protoss player, i feel that the use of 2 and 3 are highly needed to organize my army, for example, 1 for zealots/sentries, 2 for stalkers, 3 for hts etc.
TIA, and sorry if this was asked before
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On January 02 2012 03:42 TheNikeTan wrote:
why is it that some players do not use control groups 2 and 3?
at blizzcon, i heard one of the casters say that it allows greater control, and i don't really see how. they were talking about digSeleCT. as a protoss player, i feel that the use of 2 and 3 are highly needed to organize my army, for example, 1 for zealots/sentries, 2 for stalkers, 3 for hts etc.
TIA, and sorry if this was asked before
Well, it allows for greater control in the way that it requires you to box or select specific units instead of moving hotkeyed groups around. Really not recommended until you've exhausted most other ways of improving your micro though 
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sorry for just recently posting a question but i forgot to ask this one as well. and apologies in advance if it is too specific/vague
so i see that many protoss players suggest a 3 gate robo opening against all matchups, as it is pretty standard. since already beginning with robo tech, how do you transition into HT tech? i dont quite understand how by around 12 minutes people have many immortals and a good amount of HTs with storm mixed into their army. i'm not too sure as to when and how to transition into a different "branch" of tech.
TIA
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On January 02 2012 07:42 TheNikeTan wrote:
sorry for just recently posting a question but i forgot to ask this one as well. and apologies in advance if it is too specific/vague
so i see that many protoss players suggest a 3 gate robo opening against all matchups, as it is pretty standard. since already beginning with robo tech, how do you transition into HT tech? i dont quite understand how by around 12 minutes people have many immortals and a good amount of HTs with storm mixed into their army. i'm not too sure as to when and how to transition into a different "branch" of tech.
TIA
No one good will recommend 3 gate robo in PvZ.
3 gate robo in PvT is overkill, most people recommend 1 gate FE nowadays. If you're not confortable, the safest PvT build is 2 gate robo. Transitioning into storm isn't with immortals but with mass zealot + upgrades.
3 gate robo twilight is good in PvP, but you'll never transition to HT storm ( at least not in the current metagame, I hear some people are actually figuring out how to use storm in PvP.)
All in all, immortal storm is only good in PvZ, and you get there usually through a FFE, immortal + blink stalkers on two bases, and adding HTs when you are on three bases.
For more precise advice regarding these builds, you can check out the recommended threads thread which has a great protoss section.
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On January 02 2012 07:54 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 07:42 TheNikeTan wrote:
sorry for just recently posting a question but i forgot to ask this one as well. and apologies in advance if it is too specific/vague
so i see that many protoss players suggest a 3 gate robo opening against all matchups, as it is pretty standard. since already beginning with robo tech, how do you transition into HT tech? i dont quite understand how by around 12 minutes people have many immortals and a good amount of HTs with storm mixed into their army. i'm not too sure as to when and how to transition into a different "branch" of tech.
TIA No one good will recommend 3 gate robo in PvZ. 3 gate robo in PvT is overkill, most people recommend 1 gate FE nowadays. If you're not confortable, the safest PvT build is 2 gate robo. Transitioning into storm isn't with immortals but with mass zealot + upgrades. 3 gate robo twilight is good in PvP, but you'll never transition to HT storm ( at least not in the current metagame, I hear some people are actually figuring out how to use storm in PvP. All in all, immortal storm is only good in PvZ, and you get there usually through a FFE, immortal + blink stalkers on two bases, and adding HTs when you are on three bases.
While everything you said is true, I think the question he was asking has to be put into context. A lot of people recommend the 3 gate robo in all matchups *for lower leagues*. It is a good standard opening that is okay in all contexts and gives you a chance to really work your mechanics and your macro.
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PvZ: Baneling bust. How to respond to baneling bust on Shakuras or even Tal'darim?
Make tons of sentries to defend?
What is the best scenario:
a) try to be super good with forcefields(like 2-3 ffs) and catch banelings and kill them... i think its kind of impossible on taldarim etc..
b) leave baneling to kill wall and use ffs to prevent lings inside? - because if you see banelings and put forcefields in front of your buildings, he will just retreat and wait till ffs go down... and its lose after that if you dont have more ffs..
what about unit combo? sentry zealot?
Shakuras or antiga is little easier than Tal'darim, but still want to know right scenario how to defend baneling bust.
Thx <3
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Hi,
I'm trying to play Terran in team games at the moment as I feel that bio is the most versatile and solid way to support and fight in mid level team games.
Can anybody provide a comprehensive build order for going aggressive bio which ultimately leads to safe expansion timing and a solid midgame production. Can you elaborate on the amount of gas and gas timings specifically. I seem to have huge problems with taking the right amount of gas when going bio and when it's time to expand. When should I start my upgrades?
All in all im just looking for a solid way to go bio in team games without going too heavy all-in or playing too greedy and watching my team mates die.
thx for any useful answers in advance.
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On January 02 2012 12:18 IMnoPro wrote:
Hi,
I'm trying to play Terran in team games at the moment as I feel that bio is the most versatile and solid way to support and fight in mid level team games.
Can anybody provide a comprehensive build order for going aggressive bio which ultimately leads to safe expansion timing and a solid midgame production. Can you elaborate on the amount of gas and gas timings specifically. I seem to have huge problems with taking the right amount of gas when going bio and when it's time to expand. When should I start my upgrades?
All in all im just looking for a solid way to go bio in team games without going too heavy all-in or playing too greedy and watching my team mates die.
thx for any useful answers in advance.
I think you missed where hte title of htis thread said "simple". This would require an elaborate guide to be written, and we're talking about team games here. Team games are SO volatile that any build orders usually get thrown out he window before the 25 supply mark. Realistically just pick a BO from 1v1 that you like, and see how it works. If you find your usual expansion timing isn't going to work, or your strategy doesn't spend all the gas you accumumlate, then alter it.
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What's the deathball you should be aiming for as a protoss against a zerg you can't harass and who seeks to permanently trade roaches / corruptors against stalkers / colossi so you dont get a critical number, until he's got 15 infestors with full energy + broodlords / corruptors? And how to secure a 4th base? Do you want to make sentries?
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I play PvZ quite often against a friend...he usually counters my early roaches well using zealots for tanking and sentry fields to separate the roaches. Rarely do our games go into late-game but when they do i usually see immortals come out specifically to flank any infestors i may have. Hope this helps...my first post and all :D
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On January 02 2012 13:34 CookieMaker wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 12:18 IMnoPro wrote:
Hi,
I'm trying to play Terran in team games at the moment as I feel that bio is the most versatile and solid way to support and fight in mid level team games.
Can anybody provide a comprehensive build order for going aggressive bio which ultimately leads to safe expansion timing and a solid midgame production. Can you elaborate on the amount of gas and gas timings specifically. I seem to have huge problems with taking the right amount of gas when going bio and when it's time to expand. When should I start my upgrades?
All in all im just looking for a solid way to go bio in team games without going too heavy all-in or playing too greedy and watching my team mates die.
thx for any useful answers in advance.
I think you missed where hte title of htis thread said "simple". This would require an elaborate guide to be written, and we're talking about team games here. Team games are SO volatile that any build orders usually get thrown out he window before the 25 supply mark. Realistically just pick a BO from 1v1 that you like, and see how it works. If you find your usual expansion timing isn't going to work, or your strategy doesn't spend all the gas you accumumlate, then alter it.
Sry that I may have gotten in wrong. But I'm a new user and therefore currently unable to open new threads so I didn't know where to ask elsewhere.
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On January 02 2012 14:00 Barty wrote:
What's the deathball you should be aiming for as a protoss against a zerg you can't harass and who seeks to permanently trade roaches / corruptors against stalkers / colossi so you dont get a critical number, until he's got 15 infestors with full energy + broodlords / corruptors? And how to secure a 4th base? Do you want to make sentries?
I'll answer the last question. Yes. You pretty much always want sentries against Zerg, because forcefields make a Zerg army vastly less efficient. The rest of your question is not simple; I suggest you collect threeish replays of yourself in the situation you describe and make a thread in which to discuss the problem. As a quick, from-the-gut response, I feel like Colossus/Void Ray with plenty of forcefields, then HTs as they transition into Infestors should do pretty well.
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On January 02 2012 09:50 whereismymind wrote:
PvZ: Baneling bust. How to respond to baneling bust on Shakuras or even Tal'darim?
Make tons of sentries to defend?
What is the best scenario:
a) try to be super good with forcefields(like 2-3 ffs) and catch banelings and kill them... i think its kind of impossible on taldarim etc..
b) leave baneling to kill wall and use ffs to prevent lings inside? - because if you see banelings and put forcefields in front of your buildings, he will just retreat and wait till ffs go down... and its lose after that if you dont have more ffs..
what about unit combo? sentry zealot?
Shakuras or antiga is little easier than Tal'darim, but still want to know right scenario how to defend baneling bust.
Thx <3
Let a couple of banelings hit your buildings and then FF. Doesn't really matter if you are too late and building gets destroyed, just FF where building used to be and build another layer of buildings behind the whole.
Bbust hit timings where protoss are not prepared/teching up. If you can buy ~1 minute with good FFs, you'll have enough units to hold of the lings, plus he'll have lost a lot from your cannons while trying to get in.
Don't forget to chronoboost your gateways and add cannons in the back of your naturals while your FFs are up.
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On January 02 2012 09:50 whereismymind wrote:
PvZ: Baneling bust. How to respond to baneling bust on Shakuras or even Tal'darim?
Make tons of sentries to defend?
What is the best scenario:
a) try to be super good with forcefields(like 2-3 ffs) and catch banelings and kill them... i think its kind of impossible on taldarim etc..
b) leave baneling to kill wall and use ffs to prevent lings inside? - because if you see banelings and put forcefields in front of your buildings, he will just retreat and wait till ffs go down... and its lose after that if you dont have more ffs..
what about unit combo? sentry zealot?
Shakuras or antiga is little easier than Tal'darim, but still want to know right scenario how to defend baneling bust.
Thx <3
Baneling busts should only really work if they surprise you and just knock down your wall before you realize you're being attacked, so good map vision and minimap awareness is important. The best way to respond, in my experience, is to let quite a few Banelings hit the building they're going after, then throw down forcefields. That way, they can't just keep pushing into you until you run out of Sentry energy.
If it's possible to trap a few Banelings and Zerglings and kill them with cannons and Stalkers, that's obviously a good thing to do. Just make sure you always have enough energy to keep the Banelings from destroying a building. Once you've held an attempted Baneling bust, you should be way ahead, because the nature of Baneling busts is such that they usually do zero damage at great expense if they fail.
Oh, and for units you generally want Stalker/Sentry against Banelings early game. Zealots are light and don't tank Baneling hits efficiently (unless you can get Banelings to go off on a single Zealot). Against an attempted bust you want to be tanking with your buildings and shooting back with Stalkers, and if you're being agressive you want to use forcefields and Blink to prevent the Banelings from ever hitting your army.
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On January 02 2012 17:20 rivrz wrote:
I play PvZ quite often against a friend...he usually counters my early roaches well using zealots for tanking and sentry fields to separate the roaches. Rarely do our games go into late-game but when they do i usually see immortals come out specifically to flank any infestors i may have. Hope this helps...my first post and all :D
What is your question ?
Going early roaches as zerg is pretty cheesy/all-inny. If he is countering it and winning after, there is no problem with that.
On a side note, roaches should not lose to sentry/zealots, which leads me to believe that your problem is either macro, or unit control. We can only help you if you post a replay.
Also, immortals are not good at flanking infestors
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watching destiny's stream right now - i've always wondered why pro zergs like to have 1 queen per hotkey instead of doing the base cam tricks? it seems really inefficient for apm and for control group usage. just curious, because i've always done it the base cam way
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EPT
