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On July 28 2011 04:59 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:48 Numy wrote:On July 28 2011 04:26 blinkblue wrote:
PvT question: What's the hardest counter to 1-base marine/tank/banshee/raven? I went 3gate robo expand (was going to 3gate expand but saw the factory go down, so I had to get an obs out). By the time he pushed, he had about 15 marines, 3 tanks, 3 banshees, and 1 raven. I had a couple immortals (vs the tanks... but maybe I should do this since they're so bad vs the marine+banshee combo), a couple sentries, and ~10 stalkers. My army got -crushed- (probably should have cut workers to get more gateways+units out when I saw him heavily 1-basing.)
What unit comp should I be going for? I didnt get even remotely close to defending his push. That sounds really odd. 3 tanks 3 banshees and a raven. The timing on that I'd imagine would be extremely late. A 1 gate fe into 5 gate might have production to handle that kind of push but that's not the usual timing of the all in. Anyways it's a bit tough to tell without checking out reps. 3 gate expand can hold it off but it really depends on your micro. You can try stall the push with stalkers kiting backwards while getting a flanking position. You want to get a big chunk of zealots first then leave with them while keeping your stalkers at the back to deal with banshee and deal dps. If you can set up a nice flank that would help a lot. Immortals I think aren't really the greatest against this. I might be wrong but I think just powering gateway units hardcore can deal with it easier than immortal pumping or really fast colossi with good micro. 3 gate expand is horrible advice, it's unnecessary to get that many units early against a tech build unless you want to punish him if he has only a bunker with marines and no wall, also you will definitely need a robo because of the danger of cloaked banshee. Stalling with stalker is a good idea, but against these kinds of builds I don't recommend getting many stalkers anyway so it won't help too much. Immortals are like stalkers but better in every way against this - same DPS against marines and SCVs with the added benefit of actually being able to attack if there's a PDD, plus amazing against tanks. So yes the answer is powering gateway units (with immortal), but more specifically just powering zealots.
Doesn't sound like it was too high level a game, but what about the banshees? Sentries or bring stalkers in the next warp-in?
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On July 28 2011 05:03 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:59 Anihc wrote:On July 28 2011 04:48 Numy wrote:On July 28 2011 04:26 blinkblue wrote:
PvT question: What's the hardest counter to 1-base marine/tank/banshee/raven? I went 3gate robo expand (was going to 3gate expand but saw the factory go down, so I had to get an obs out). By the time he pushed, he had about 15 marines, 3 tanks, 3 banshees, and 1 raven. I had a couple immortals (vs the tanks... but maybe I should do this since they're so bad vs the marine+banshee combo), a couple sentries, and ~10 stalkers. My army got -crushed- (probably should have cut workers to get more gateways+units out when I saw him heavily 1-basing.)
What unit comp should I be going for? I didnt get even remotely close to defending his push. That sounds really odd. 3 tanks 3 banshees and a raven. The timing on that I'd imagine would be extremely late. A 1 gate fe into 5 gate might have production to handle that kind of push but that's not the usual timing of the all in. Anyways it's a bit tough to tell without checking out reps. 3 gate expand can hold it off but it really depends on your micro. You can try stall the push with stalkers kiting backwards while getting a flanking position. You want to get a big chunk of zealots first then leave with them while keeping your stalkers at the back to deal with banshee and deal dps. If you can set up a nice flank that would help a lot. Immortals I think aren't really the greatest against this. I might be wrong but I think just powering gateway units hardcore can deal with it easier than immortal pumping or really fast colossi with good micro. 3 gate expand is horrible advice, it's unnecessary to get that many units early against a tech build unless you want to punish him if he has only a bunker with marines and no wall, also you will definitely need a robo because of the danger of cloaked banshee. Stalling with stalker is a good idea, but against these kinds of builds I don't recommend getting many stalkers anyway so it won't help too much. Immortals are like stalkers but better in every way against this - same DPS against marines and SCVs with the added benefit of actually being able to attack if there's a PDD, plus amazing against tanks. So yes the answer is powering gateway units (with immortal), but more specifically just powering zealots. Doesn't sound like it was too high level a game, but what about the banshees? Sentries or bring stalkers in the next warp-in?
Once you have held off the ground you can mop up the banshees with warpins generally. The PDD will make them quite deadly if you stay in the combat area so just falling back and deal with them. If the pdd is not a factor I assume you can keep going. Sentries do alright with some warpins to back them up. It's just important to not warp in within range of all 3 banshees if you have issues with after the ground army has been cleaned up.
@Anihc - I wasn't too sure about 1gate fe or 2gate robo on Xelnaga so I didn't want to mention something that could be deadly. I guess I should have just left out specific build :<
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On July 28 2011 05:10 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:03 tehemperorer wrote:On July 28 2011 04:59 Anihc wrote:On July 28 2011 04:48 Numy wrote:On July 28 2011 04:26 blinkblue wrote:
PvT question: What's the hardest counter to 1-base marine/tank/banshee/raven? I went 3gate robo expand (was going to 3gate expand but saw the factory go down, so I had to get an obs out). By the time he pushed, he had about 15 marines, 3 tanks, 3 banshees, and 1 raven. I had a couple immortals (vs the tanks... but maybe I should do this since they're so bad vs the marine+banshee combo), a couple sentries, and ~10 stalkers. My army got -crushed- (probably should have cut workers to get more gateways+units out when I saw him heavily 1-basing.)
What unit comp should I be going for? I didnt get even remotely close to defending his push. That sounds really odd. 3 tanks 3 banshees and a raven. The timing on that I'd imagine would be extremely late. A 1 gate fe into 5 gate might have production to handle that kind of push but that's not the usual timing of the all in. Anyways it's a bit tough to tell without checking out reps. 3 gate expand can hold it off but it really depends on your micro. You can try stall the push with stalkers kiting backwards while getting a flanking position. You want to get a big chunk of zealots first then leave with them while keeping your stalkers at the back to deal with banshee and deal dps. If you can set up a nice flank that would help a lot. Immortals I think aren't really the greatest against this. I might be wrong but I think just powering gateway units hardcore can deal with it easier than immortal pumping or really fast colossi with good micro. 3 gate expand is horrible advice, it's unnecessary to get that many units early against a tech build unless you want to punish him if he has only a bunker with marines and no wall, also you will definitely need a robo because of the danger of cloaked banshee. Stalling with stalker is a good idea, but against these kinds of builds I don't recommend getting many stalkers anyway so it won't help too much. Immortals are like stalkers but better in every way against this - same DPS against marines and SCVs with the added benefit of actually being able to attack if there's a PDD, plus amazing against tanks. So yes the answer is powering gateway units (with immortal), but more specifically just powering zealots. Doesn't sound like it was too high level a game, but what about the banshees? Sentries or bring stalkers in the next warp-in? Once you have held off the ground you can mop up the banshees with warpins generally. The PDD will make them quite deadly if you stay in the combat area so just falling back and deal with them. If the pdd is not a factor I assume you can keep going. Sentries do alright with some warpins to back them up. It's just important to not warp in within range of all 3 banshees if you have issues with after the ground army has been cleaned up. @Anihc - I wasn't too sure about 1gate fe or 2gate robo on Xelnaga so I didn't want to mention something that could be deadly. I guess I should have just left out specific build :<
Would it be reasonable in a situation like this to make lots of stalkers (which I think outrun banshees, tanks and marines) and try to engage in the midfield and force a PDD, then back off to your natural, away from the PDD and engage with stalker/zealot?
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Can someone please help me understand the forge FE for pvz?
I know what it is, but why was it invented and ever used in BW? Is it just to stop early cheese like 6 pools? Liquipedia says it is trying to skip the early game to give a better mid game? But how does it do that? It seems like it just slows down tech by getting a later gate.
But mainly, why is it used now in sc2 instead of just doing a 1 gate expand? It seems like a gate/core/zealot wall with sentry/stalker behind is not that much worse than a forge/gate/zealot wall with cannons behind.
What are its advantages?
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On July 28 2011 05:33 Gwaltgw wrote:
Can someone please help me understand the forge FE for pvz?
I know what it is, but why was it invented and ever used in BW? Is it just to stop early cheese like 6 pools? Liquipedia says it is trying to skip the early game to give a better mid game? But how does it do that? It seems like it just slows down tech by getting a later gate.
But mainly, why is it used now in sc2 instead of just doing a 1 gate expand? It seems like a gate/core/zealot wall with sentry/stalker behind is not that much worse than a forge/gate/zealot wall with cannons behind.
What are its advantages?
It lets you safely get an early Nexus in ways early units cannot. You cannot get a ranged defense out early enough, so cannons work.
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On July 28 2011 05:33 Gwaltgw wrote:
Can someone please help me understand the forge FE for pvz?
I know what it is, but why was it invented and ever used in BW? Is it just to stop early cheese like 6 pools? Liquipedia says it is trying to skip the early game to give a better mid game? But how does it do that? It seems like it just slows down tech by getting a later gate.
But mainly, why is it used now in sc2 instead of just doing a 1 gate expand? It seems like a gate/core/zealot wall with sentry/stalker behind is not that much worse than a forge/gate/zealot wall with cannons behind.
What are its advantages?
A 1 gate expand is not a safe choice in most spawns for pvz. Forge FE may delay tech, but it allows you to get a much better economy going into the midgame. You use the cannons to wall off your expo, not your ramp.
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Superlow diamond T here. I'm planning to start playing random on the ladder, and I'm looking for some solid, micro and mechanics-oriented basic builds I can use for P and Z. My ideal build would have some early aggression possibilities, but would give me a chance to expand at a reasonable time and build a standard unit mix for the match-up. As T, I currently do a 2rax expand against all races, and transition into standard play.
Obviously, since I'm learning 6 new MUs here, a build order that I can deploy against 2 or 3 races would be helpful. TIA!
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what are the best PvPers doing right now? I was looking into IMYongHwa 3 stalker 3gate robo counter to 4gate, but thats really old (maybe it still works?)
I want to avoid 4gating, while being safe + countering whatever my opponent is doing
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On July 28 2011 06:05 blinkblue wrote:
what are the best PvPers doing right now? I was looking into IMYongHwa 3 stalker 3gate robo counter to 4gate, but thats really old (maybe it still works?)
I want to avoid 4gating, while being safe + countering whatever my opponent is doing
3 Stalker opening is gewd. I do it all the time.
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How do you deal with hatch first if you scout it late, have committed to a 13 gate 15 gas, and cannot ffe? I've trieed fourgating but they can easily use ovies to scout it, and its easy to defend once scouted.
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On July 28 2011 06:09 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 06:05 blinkblue wrote:
what are the best PvPers doing right now? I was looking into IMYongHwa 3 stalker 3gate robo counter to 4gate, but thats really old (maybe it still works?)
I want to avoid 4gating, while being safe + countering whatever my opponent is doing 3 Stalker opening is gewd. I do it all the time.
is there a refined build order now that warp tech is slower? or do you use the same one from your OP?
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On July 28 2011 06:09 blinkblue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 06:09 CecilSunkure wrote:On July 28 2011 06:05 blinkblue wrote:
what are the best PvPers doing right now? I was looking into IMYongHwa 3 stalker 3gate robo counter to 4gate, but thats really old (maybe it still works?)
I want to avoid 4gating, while being safe + countering whatever my opponent is doing 3 Stalker opening is gewd. I do it all the time. is there a refined build order now that warp tech is slower? or do you use the same one from your OP?
No I actually use my own variation nowadays. I honestly don't know the specific numbers, and it's a bit reactive. Perhaps I should write a new thread on it.
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On July 28 2011 06:45 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 06:09 blinkblue wrote:On July 28 2011 06:09 CecilSunkure wrote:On July 28 2011 06:05 blinkblue wrote:
what are the best PvPers doing right now? I was looking into IMYongHwa 3 stalker 3gate robo counter to 4gate, but thats really old (maybe it still works?)
I want to avoid 4gating, while being safe + countering whatever my opponent is doing 3 Stalker opening is gewd. I do it all the time. is there a refined build order now that warp tech is slower? or do you use the same one from your OP? No I actually use my own variation nowadays. I honestly don't know the specific numbers, and it's a bit reactive. Perhaps I should write a new thread on it.
Would love to hear the build/see a couple replays. Either way, thanks for the previous thread at the least.
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I have mechanics to play a good game, but I just resort to cheesing every game (and most of the time winning). How can i break myself of this cheese habit so i can improve my actual skills?
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On July 28 2011 07:12 57 Corvette wrote:
I have mechanics to play a good game, but I just resort to cheesing every game (and most of the time winning). How can i break myself of this cheese habit so i can improve my actual skills?
Don't cheese!
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I have some trouble against terrans who wall in. I find that I'm not able to draw the conclusions from my probe scout and my zealot+stalker poke to decide how to time my expansion. Sometimes 2-gate robo expand is too slow; other times it's too fast because a conceal 3-rax is on the way.
I think that one good response if the terran walls in and my early scouting doesn't reveal a lot of marines is to transition to the Gate-Stargate-Gate-Gate voidray all-in. But I would prefer to play a macro game.
I want to expand as early as I can and I also want to scout, so often I get one gate, then a robo, then expand when my obs is building. My hope is to cancel the expand if my obs scouts the potential for aggression that I can't hold. I've never read about this build, though -- I've only read about 2 gate robo expands. Can someone explain why one gate robo expand is generally a suboptimal build?
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On July 28 2011 07:19 galivet wrote:
I have some trouble against terrans who wall in. I find that I'm not able to draw the conclusions from my probe scout and my zealot+stalker poke to decide how to time my expansion. Sometimes 2-gate robo expand is too slow; other times it's too fast because a conceal 3-rax is on the way.
I think that one good response if the terran walls in and my early scouting doesn't reveal a lot of marines is to transition to the Gate-Stargate-Gate-Gate voidray all-in. But I would prefer to play a macro game.
I want to expand as early as I can and I also want to scout, so often I get one gate, then a robo, then expand when my obs is building. My hope is to cancel the expand if my obs scouts the potential for aggression that I can't hold. I've never read about this build, though -- I've only read about 2 gate robo expands. Can someone explain why one gate robo expand is generally a suboptimal build?
I'm sure a blue poster will answer this better soon, but in the meantime, a 2 gate expand gives you a whole gateway's more worth of units. If your observer does scout a 3 rax all-in coming your way, then simply cancelling your nexus is not going to make 400 minerals worth of units appear.
Also, you have to wait for your new gates to finish before you can even use them, in which time the terran should make it all the way to your base. One gateway worth of units+2 more units from a warp in can't hold the 3 rax.
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It makes it sound like if the Terran walls in and keeps most of his units and all of his other buildings far from his ramp, my early game is a coin flip. Maybe he's going to 3-rax, or maybe he's got an early CC building out of my visual range -- no way to tell until after I'm committed to an opening.
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On July 28 2011 06:09 aRyuujin wrote:
How do you deal with hatch first if you scout it late, have committed to a 13 gate 15 gas, and cannot ffe? I've trieed fourgating but they can easily use ovies to scout it, and its easy to defend once scouted.
Just play standard. Hatch first is such a common thing that you arn't super far behind if don't cheese or FFE, I would recommend going FFE if at all possible but I believe there is a relatively safe 1 gate expand build that doesn't get the nexus much later than a forge first.
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On July 28 2011 06:09 aRyuujin wrote:
How do you deal with hatch first if you scout it late, have committed to a 13 gate 15 gas, and cannot ffe? I've trieed fourgating but they can easily use ovies to scout it, and its easy to defend once scouted.
You can double stalker opening, fake a cannon rush, press with Zealot/Stalker. You can 1 Gate FE.
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EPT
