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On July 28 2011 02:12 galivet wrote:
How does Void Ray and Sentry attack damage work? It seems like they do continuous steady damage so I'm not sure how to effectively stutter-step them.
The voidray is pretty rapid, and the sentry is a little less rapid, iirc. I stutter sentries all the time, you just have to get used to the timing. That said, air upgrades for voidrays (actually protoss air units in general) tier really fast.
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On July 28 2011 02:23 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 01:57 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
What is the fastest way to improve my game taking out the fun factor?
Im plat and im working and willing to work my ass to get out of there and to get to masters by mid september 1. Choose a race to play exclusively 2. Decide 3 GOOD build orders you will use exclusively in XvT, XvP, XvZ matchups, and do not change even if you lose a bunch of times 3. Learn those 3 good build orders in and out and things will look much clearer to you. If you are willing to work your ass off, you still need to be disciplined about it or it will take you much much longer to achieve your goal.
I'd agree that what Emporer said is a great place to start. Take a look at my article I wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208343
In my article, I believe I mention how seeing yourself improve is extremely fun, and your improvement can be used to fuel and motivate future improvement.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On July 28 2011 02:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:12 galivet wrote:
How does Void Ray and Sentry attack damage work? It seems like they do continuous steady damage so I'm not sure how to effectively stutter-step them. The voidray is pretty rapid, and the sentry is a little less rapid, iirc. I stutter sentries all the time, you just have to get used to the timing. That said, air upgrades for voidrays (actually protoss air units in general) tier really fast.
Void Ray attack has a cooldown between shots of 0.6, which is similar to that of a stimmed marine, or an adrenal glands-upgraded zergling.
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On July 28 2011 02:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:12 galivet wrote:
How does Void Ray and Sentry attack damage work? It seems like they do continuous steady damage so I'm not sure how to effectively stutter-step them. The voidray is pretty rapid, and the sentry is a little less rapid, iirc. I stutter sentries all the time, you just have to get used to the timing. That said, air upgrades for voidrays (actually protoss air units in general) tier really fast.
Hmm could you explain what you mean by "tier really fast?"
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On July 28 2011 02:28 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:23 CecilSunkure wrote:On July 28 2011 02:12 galivet wrote:
How does Void Ray and Sentry attack damage work? It seems like they do continuous steady damage so I'm not sure how to effectively stutter-step them. The voidray is pretty rapid, and the sentry is a little less rapid, iirc. I stutter sentries all the time, you just have to get used to the timing. That said, air upgrades for voidrays (actually protoss air units in general) tier really fast. Hmm could you explain what you mean by "tier really fast?"
Really rapid fire means that a +1 to the voidray attack means +1 damage very rapidly as well. Imagine a unit with a very large attack cooldown. It will require a large addition to it's attack from an upgrade in order for the upgrade to be effective. If you have an attack firing 5+1 damage every 10 seconds, that +1 damage isn't going to help much. However if you have an attack firing 5+1 damage every .3 seconds, that +1 is being applied over and over and over, all adding up very quickly.
When a phoenix fires it fires both rapidly and with two separate shots, both of which take a +1 attack bonus resulting in a +2 damage per attack bonus for each upgrade. This makes you kill everything way faster.
And carriers are beastmode, taking +16 damage per upgrade due to each interceptor having 2 attacks.
That all being said, air units aren't going to be very great against units with lots of HP and high armor (unless it's a voidray that gets a damage buff to massive units).
iirc the Voidray recieves a near 20% boost in DPS for each upgrade, very high. This makes 5 Voidray allins in PvP (actually any matchup) very hard to deal with if you have a +1 air attack. It's kinda funny how fast you can down Stalkers if you shift+focus them with 5-6 Voidrays with +1 attack.
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On July 28 2011 02:32 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:28 tehemperorer wrote:On July 28 2011 02:23 CecilSunkure wrote:On July 28 2011 02:12 galivet wrote:
How does Void Ray and Sentry attack damage work? It seems like they do continuous steady damage so I'm not sure how to effectively stutter-step them. The voidray is pretty rapid, and the sentry is a little less rapid, iirc. I stutter sentries all the time, you just have to get used to the timing. That said, air upgrades for voidrays (actually protoss air units in general) tier really fast. Hmm could you explain what you mean by "tier really fast?" Really rapid fire means that a +1 to the voidray attack means +1 damage very rapidly as well. Imagine a unit with a very large attack cooldown. It will require a large addition to it's attack from an upgrade in order for the upgrade to be effective. If you have an attack firing 5+1 damage every 10 seconds, that +1 damage isn't going to help much. However if you have an attack firing 5+1 damage every .3 seconds, that +1 is being applied over and over and over, all adding up very quickly. When a phoenix fires it fires both rapidly and with two separate shots, both of which take a +1 attack bonus resulting in a +2 damage per attack bonus for each upgrade. This makes you kill everything way faster. And carriers are beastmode, taking +16 damage per upgrade due to each interceptor having 2 attacks. That all being said, air units aren't going to be very great against units with lots of HP and high armor (unless it's a voidray that gets a damage buff to massive units). iirc the Voidray recieves a near 20% boost in DPS for each upgrade, very high. This makes 5 Voidray allins in PvP (actually any matchup) very hard to deal with if you have a +1 air attack. It's kinda funny how fast you can down Stalkers if you shift+focus them with 5-6 Voidrays with +1 attack.
Hmm hmmm hmm brains working thanks!
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On July 28 2011 02:28 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:23 CecilSunkure wrote:On July 28 2011 02:12 galivet wrote:
How does Void Ray and Sentry attack damage work? It seems like they do continuous steady damage so I'm not sure how to effectively stutter-step them. The voidray is pretty rapid, and the sentry is a little less rapid, iirc. I stutter sentries all the time, you just have to get used to the timing. That said, air upgrades for voidrays (actually protoss air units in general) tier really fast. Hmm could you explain what you mean by "tier really fast?"
Well because they deal small amounts of damage but with a quick fire rate (voids, marines, zerglings, phoenix, carriers, etc), an upgrade to boost their attack complements their fast fire rate extremely well. For example, a ling does 5 damage (i think? specifics arent important). With +1, it does 6. That's a 20% increase in attack damage. Whereas a tank doing 50 damage (i'm making this up) gets an attack upgrade and does 51 damage, a miniscule increase.
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On July 27 2011 11:00 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:56 CecilSunkure wrote:On July 27 2011 08:51 bankai wrote:In PvT, if I open 2 gate robo (the safest opening i hear): 1) What is the best response to defending early hellion drops (e.g. iEchoic 1/1/2 build)? I have faced it many times and always lose a lot of probes, even when I expect it and it keeps me stuck in my base. I simcity around my nexus to restrict access to probes, but those hellions still can zoom behind the mineral line and start splash damaging away  2) How do I respond to hellion/marine pushes (in my front) in early game? That build has been deemed too safe. You'll fall behind if the Terran does an FE, and you can't kill or punish them. Best is to see it coming before it lands, and have stalkers ready. Early game hellion/marine pushes should die to just Stalkers/Guardian shield. Cecil have you ever played RuFF? He's been doing a lot of 1 base hellion/marine strats recently and they've caught me off guard several times. Like he'll open hellion and I defend find against that, but I end up overmaking stalkers in order to successfully defend, then he comes with a BF hellion/stimmed marine/medivac/raven all-in that's extremely hard to stop since you've made so many stalkers.
Just realized you replied, didn't see.
Actually no I haven't, and that sounds really annoying :/
Did you ever figure out what's best to do in a situation like that? I'm thinking you can make a lot of cannons since it's an allin, and just surviving puts you ahead. It would also be important to kite him all across the map as he comes at you, with your stalkers, you think?
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Do zergs tend to favor lair before a third, the other way around or is there no rule of thumb???
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On July 28 2011 03:32 Fat Ninja wrote:
Do zergs tend to favor lair before a third, the other way around or is there no rule of thumb???
Depends on what you're going for/what your opponent is doing. If you feel no pressure, I think expanding is better, but if you feel you need tech (more upgrades, Infestor, Muta, etc), you obviously need your Lair. It also depends on your Gas count, since that is what limits Zerg for the most part.
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On July 28 2011 03:32 Fat Ninja wrote:
Do zergs tend to favor lair before a third, the other way around or is there no rule of thumb???
Generally, in response to a fast expand from the protoss, and if you plan to play defensively, you go for 3rd before lair. However, if you intend on being aggressive, such as doing a hydra/ling attack or muta harass (without really all-ining), then you get lair and tech first, and expand behind your attack/while you're harassing.
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PvT question: What's the hardest counter to 1-base marine/tank/banshee/raven? I went 3gate robo expand (was going to 3gate expand but saw the factory go down, so I had to get an obs out). By the time he pushed, he had about 15 marines, 3 tanks, 3 banshees, and 1 raven. I had a couple immortals (vs the tanks... but maybe I should do this since they're so bad vs the marine+banshee combo), a couple sentries, and ~10 stalkers. My army got -crushed- (probably should have cut workers to get more gateways+units out when I saw him heavily 1-basing.)
What unit comp should I be going for? I didnt get even remotely close to defending his push.
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On July 28 2011 04:26 blinkblue wrote:
PvT question: What's the hardest counter to 1-base marine/tank/banshee/raven? I went 3gate robo expand (was going to 3gate expand but saw the factory go down, so I had to get an obs out). By the time he pushed, he had about 15 marines, 3 tanks, 3 banshees, and 1 raven. I had a couple immortals (vs the tanks... but maybe I should do this since they're so bad vs the marine+banshee combo), a couple sentries, and ~10 stalkers. My army got -crushed- (probably should have cut workers to get more gateways+units out when I saw him heavily 1-basing.)
What unit comp should I be going for? I didnt get even remotely close to defending his push.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187808¤tpage=207#4139
Summary: 3 gate robo expand sucks (against anything). 1 gate expand is great against 1-1-1 builds. When you scout this all-in go for 5 gate 1 robo zealot/sentry/immortal (mostly zealots). Stalkers are bad. Flank when engaging.
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How do you kill the banshees? Just with sentries?
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On July 28 2011 04:26 blinkblue wrote:
PvT question: What's the hardest counter to 1-base marine/tank/banshee/raven? I went 3gate robo expand (was going to 3gate expand but saw the factory go down, so I had to get an obs out). By the time he pushed, he had about 15 marines, 3 tanks, 3 banshees, and 1 raven. I had a couple immortals (vs the tanks... but maybe I should do this since they're so bad vs the marine+banshee combo), a couple sentries, and ~10 stalkers. My army got -crushed- (probably should have cut workers to get more gateways+units out when I saw him heavily 1-basing.)
What unit comp should I be going for? I didnt get even remotely close to defending his push.
That sounds really odd. 3 tanks 3 banshees and a raven. The timing on that I'd imagine would be extremely late. A 1 gate fe into 5 gate might have production to handle that kind of push but that's not the usual timing of the all in.
Anyways it's a bit tough to tell without checking out reps. 3 gate expand can hold it off but it really depends on your micro. You can try stall the push with stalkers kiting backwards while getting a flanking position. You want to get a big chunk of zealots first then leave with them while keeping your stalkers at the back to deal with banshee and deal dps. If you can set up a nice flank that would help a lot. Immortals I think aren't really the greatest against this. I might be wrong but I think just powering gateway units hardcore can deal with it easier than immortal pumping or really fast colossi with good micro.
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How do you assign a unit to 'a move' all over the map while shift clicking multiple destinations? Eg when you want a viking to scout around the map for expos but also shoot overlords in the process instead if flying right by them.
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On July 28 2011 04:48 McPricE wrote:
How do you assign a unit to 'a move' all over the map while shift clicking multiple destinations? Eg when you want a viking to scout around the map for expos but also shoot overlords in the process instead if flying right by them.
Press attack move(A) then shift click around the map
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On July 28 2011 04:48 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:26 blinkblue wrote:
PvT question: What's the hardest counter to 1-base marine/tank/banshee/raven? I went 3gate robo expand (was going to 3gate expand but saw the factory go down, so I had to get an obs out). By the time he pushed, he had about 15 marines, 3 tanks, 3 banshees, and 1 raven. I had a couple immortals (vs the tanks... but maybe I should do this since they're so bad vs the marine+banshee combo), a couple sentries, and ~10 stalkers. My army got -crushed- (probably should have cut workers to get more gateways+units out when I saw him heavily 1-basing.)
What unit comp should I be going for? I didnt get even remotely close to defending his push. That sounds really odd. 3 tanks 3 banshees and a raven. The timing on that I'd imagine would be extremely late. A 1 gate fe into 5 gate might have production to handle that kind of push but that's not the usual timing of the all in. Anyways it's a bit tough to tell without checking out reps. 3 gate expand can hold it off but it really depends on your micro. You can try stall the push with stalkers kiting backwards while getting a flanking position. You want to get a big chunk of zealots first then leave with them while keeping your stalkers at the back to deal with banshee and deal dps. If you can set up a nice flank that would help a lot. Immortals I think aren't really the greatest against this. I might be wrong but I think just powering gateway units hardcore can deal with it easier than immortal pumping or really fast colossi with good micro.
FWIW he cut a shit load of SCVs to get it all out. He stopped SCV production at 19 workers.
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On July 28 2011 04:50 blinkblue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:48 Numy wrote:On July 28 2011 04:26 blinkblue wrote:
PvT question: What's the hardest counter to 1-base marine/tank/banshee/raven? I went 3gate robo expand (was going to 3gate expand but saw the factory go down, so I had to get an obs out). By the time he pushed, he had about 15 marines, 3 tanks, 3 banshees, and 1 raven. I had a couple immortals (vs the tanks... but maybe I should do this since they're so bad vs the marine+banshee combo), a couple sentries, and ~10 stalkers. My army got -crushed- (probably should have cut workers to get more gateways+units out when I saw him heavily 1-basing.)
What unit comp should I be going for? I didnt get even remotely close to defending his push. That sounds really odd. 3 tanks 3 banshees and a raven. The timing on that I'd imagine would be extremely late. A 1 gate fe into 5 gate might have production to handle that kind of push but that's not the usual timing of the all in. Anyways it's a bit tough to tell without checking out reps. 3 gate expand can hold it off but it really depends on your micro. You can try stall the push with stalkers kiting backwards while getting a flanking position. You want to get a big chunk of zealots first then leave with them while keeping your stalkers at the back to deal with banshee and deal dps. If you can set up a nice flank that would help a lot. Immortals I think aren't really the greatest against this. I might be wrong but I think just powering gateway units hardcore can deal with it easier than immortal pumping or really fast colossi with good micro. FWIW he cut a shit load of SCVs to get it all out. He stopped SCV production at 19 workers.
Really doesn't matter if he cuts scvs. His gas income isn't going to go any higher. Getting siege tanks siege banshees and raven is a lot of gas.
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On July 28 2011 04:48 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:26 blinkblue wrote:
PvT question: What's the hardest counter to 1-base marine/tank/banshee/raven? I went 3gate robo expand (was going to 3gate expand but saw the factory go down, so I had to get an obs out). By the time he pushed, he had about 15 marines, 3 tanks, 3 banshees, and 1 raven. I had a couple immortals (vs the tanks... but maybe I should do this since they're so bad vs the marine+banshee combo), a couple sentries, and ~10 stalkers. My army got -crushed- (probably should have cut workers to get more gateways+units out when I saw him heavily 1-basing.)
What unit comp should I be going for? I didnt get even remotely close to defending his push. That sounds really odd. 3 tanks 3 banshees and a raven. The timing on that I'd imagine would be extremely late. A 1 gate fe into 5 gate might have production to handle that kind of push but that's not the usual timing of the all in. Anyways it's a bit tough to tell without checking out reps. 3 gate expand can hold it off but it really depends on your micro. You can try stall the push with stalkers kiting backwards while getting a flanking position. You want to get a big chunk of zealots first then leave with them while keeping your stalkers at the back to deal with banshee and deal dps. If you can set up a nice flank that would help a lot. Immortals I think aren't really the greatest against this. I might be wrong but I think just powering gateway units hardcore can deal with it easier than immortal pumping or really fast colossi with good micro.
3 gate expand is horrible advice, it's unnecessary to get that many units early against a tech build unless you want to punish him if he has only a bunker with marines and no wall, also you will definitely need a robo because of the danger of cloaked banshee. Stalling with stalker is a good idea, but against these kinds of builds I don't recommend getting many stalkers anyway so it won't help too much. Immortals are like stalkers but better in every way against this - same DPS against marines and SCVs with the added benefit of actually being able to attack if there's a PDD, plus amazing against tanks. So yes the answer is powering gateway units (with immortal), but more specifically just powering zealots.
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EPT
