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On January 31 2011 03:31 superllama wrote:
...k, so that's how to time +1. That's like the intermediate level of timing; the timing of your own structures/production. It has nothing to do with the timing of your opponent's builds. (That's the advanced level of timing that made things like 2-Hatch Muta so powerful in brood war). It just kind of randomly happens to sorta kinda defend a 6gate, not even with tight timing in regards to the Toss's build, as evidenced by the "comfortable timing" you say it has. You know why? It's because for God's sake, it's just a fast +1! It's a "comfortable timing" because we're not playing rock-paper-scissors, where this counters this counters this! It's like you're trying to name "Build-Spine-Crawlers-to-Kill-Hellions" after yourself!
I've got no beef with my homie Fast +1, (although usually -- though not always [I'm looking at you Siege Tech, as long as the strat calls for it anyway] -- getting an upgrade ultra-fast, especially long ones like +1, to defend rather than attack is a bad sign. And before you yell "Baneling Speed!" no, I'm not forgetting. But i'm digressing; go watch a Day9 Daily for explanation lol :D ), but it's like when that guy tried to name dropping single units out of a Medivac onto Banelings. I might as well name a tactic like cliffing tanks the Superllama Tanks, or go back to Brood War and name ye olde fast +1 Zeal/Archon push the Superllama Rapes Face Cause He's So Awesome Build.
And seriously, not telling the guy who asked the gas timing? When he could just look at the replay and find it himself in 5 minutes? So this entire "build" was just advertising for your coaching services? Because if you're not even gonna explain it unless I pay you money, I don't see why you need to post to teach me how to build an Evo Chamber. (Those gasses have more to do with your transition than your opening, anyway).
Besides, the strength of a build isn't in the numbers, it's in the strategy, typically the advanced level of timings reached when considering the OTHER guy's strategy, e.g. ye also-olde 9Minute Push in BW ZvT. If your build is so strategically brilliant, we'll remember you for your genius, not your number-crunching.
Ok, first of all, he SAID he is doing this as an advertisement.
Second, think before you trash post. There's no need to nitpick over the name, no one is forcing anyone to call this 'build' anything. Instead, focus on the topic, and actually contribute something to the discussion.
He is offering up a very specific counter to 6-gate, and I for one find it pretty interesting. I'm going to be trying this.
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Just an incredible amount of haters and trolls on these forums nowadays.
I am presenting this as an alternative to getting burrow while defending vs a 6gate. Does burrow still work ? Yes. Is it better ? Debateable.
What i dislike the most is people who don't even bother to watch the replay or test the build themselves yet they find 5 to 10 minutes of their own lives to hate on me and my thread : (. This happens on the rare ocasion when i do choose to post something on TL. So sad.
Anyway, i would appreciate more feedback from people who have actually tried it.
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I have, as I said, no hate for Fast +1 as a build. I'm sure it "defends" 6-gate, as does Fast Lair w/ Burrow Roaches, as does 6pool, as does plenty of other builds in this timeless dimensional vortex we're living in, and although I'm skeptical it can put strong pressure back on the opponent, I'm very much aware that I haven't done the research to say whether it can or not. It prolly can. Please don't mistake my clipped words as disrespect for the build. It's probably sound, and again, I don't know whether it is, or not. I just don't know.
But, interestingly enough, I'm staying very much so on topic, Fenmasse. Because "the December Build" is all about. . . december. It's. . . in the name. And the topic. And there might be something against advertising on the forum, but probably not if some content is included, I don't know, I'm not really too bothered by it anyway, just FYI.
What I'm bothered by is the burning necessity to cement yourself alongside the Bisu Build and other such revolutions. Not to say that genius strategy isn't possible. . . just to say that this isn't it. Again, nothing wrong with the build. Just you.
P.S. @RPG: Yeah, that's what I was saying man: Those gasses have more to do with your transitions, anyway
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United States11637 Posts
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Australia22 Posts
Tried this one and it works so far against a 6 gate toss! That early +1 really helps a lot. I do tend to lose sometimes due to mis scouting (5 gate robo) but still very effective! Approved!
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On January 31 2011 02:15 Skinnyowllegs wrote:
well its kinda a stupid build tbh, and it doesnt work against good players, since they will prevent you from scouting whatever tech they choose to go unless you have lair... and if u go +1 before lair you will not have time to defend airplay pheonix build from 2 bases... Nice try but no banana!
Please download and watch this replay.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4346/decemvre_vs_Joe
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The build is not horrible, but it aint good either. What if the 6 gate never comes? and even if it come i see you losing to lots of forcefield stalkers. its a "safe" build, but like skinnyowllegs said you gonna lose to good players with this
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You are joking right? if he 4 gates that build is idiotic...
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On February 01 2011 22:20 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 02:15 Skinnyowllegs wrote:
well its kinda a stupid build tbh, and it doesnt work against good players, since they will prevent you from scouting whatever tech they choose to go unless you have lair... and if u go +1 before lair you will not have time to defend airplay pheonix build from 2 bases... Nice try but no banana! Please download and watch this replay. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4346/decemvre_vs_Joe
please try again when you win against a protoss who doesnt suck ass controlling his pheonixes.
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True that toss wasn't really experienced with phoenix , he wasn't bad , but the 2 base phoenix wasn't his strong point
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On February 01 2011 22:29 Sunstuff wrote:
You are joking right? if he 4 gates that build is idiotic...
GOD CAN YOU PLEASE READ THE OP ?
"2. You confirm that he is going for an expansion (3wpgate+Nexus or otherwise)"
It really is not difficult. TO READ.
(Admin ,sorry for caps but come on...)
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On February 01 2011 22:26 Ciara wrote:
The build is not horrible, but it aint good either. What if the 6 gate never comes? and even if it come i see you losing to lots of forcefield stalkers. its a "safe" build, but like skinnyowllegs said you gonna lose to good players with this
Maybe instead of waiting for the 6gate my play-style involves attacking into the protoss early ?
Its really the same train of though. What if you upgrade burrow and the 6gate never comes ? Having your upgrades ahead against someone who didnt go for a 6gate i think, is better than having upgraded burrow.
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Eh, by no means are you suggesting a Roach push can actually do any damage to a toss player who know how to place forcefield and defend correctly, cause trust me, it dont. Not saying you strat cant actually work at defending a 6 gate, but it seems like its limited to that, and nothing else.
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On February 01 2011 22:41 Ciara wrote:
Eh, by no means are you suggesting a Roach push can actually do any damage to a toss player who know how to place forcefield and defend correctly, cause trust me, it dont. Not saying you strat cant actually work at defending a 6 gate, but it seems like its limited to that, and nothing else.
The forcefields will go down evetually, that energy is not going anywhere. The question is when you make the protoss use that energy and where. Do i invest 16 roaches and some speedlings early and make him use the saved up energy on the sentries at his natural rather than waiting for the 12 sentries with 200 energy to cut your roach / hidra army in half ?
I think we can both agree that FFs are a serious problem but 16 roaches and some speedlings while you take a 3rd are not a big investment when you think you're forcing defensive use of forcefields.
Thats just how i play right now because i'm sick of dealing with the huge protoss ball in mid-game. You will never match him in army strenght so i feel its best to do this early.
Moreover i think you miss-understand the purpose of my attack. Its by no means a game-ender though win some cases it will win you the game. Still the push is there mostly for pressure and basically to wear him down before his ball gets too big.
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dissagree on the big investment part, building up even a little army just to force forcefields and watch them all die more or less killing nothing, and then hoping to get into a good late game is a bad choice... try watching me vs mana/nightend from last TSL think thats a way more solid way of playing. just playing defensiv passiv, taken 3-4 bases, waiting for your protoss to over exetend or when you hit 200 food, start the match of the 200´food armies over and over and over
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Djis.. Whats the deal with all the flaming? If you dont think the build works, then why not just move along? I used to go burrow against 6 gate, but now I do this. And I think this is better because you can put pressure on with +2 roaches in times where you can not with burrow. In a 3 gate fe or forge fe into 6 gate you can be sure that the toss has cannon(s) for detection at his nat after you've held the 6 gate and want to poke out.
Burrow is great because you can regen life much quicker. +2 for roaches is great for obvious reasons (20 damage to normal 16). Their both great in their own way, and you can just go for whatever suits your style.
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On February 01 2011 22:51 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 22:41 Ciara wrote:
Eh, by no means are you suggesting a Roach push can actually do any damage to a toss player who know how to place forcefield and defend correctly, cause trust me, it dont. Not saying you strat cant actually work at defending a 6 gate, but it seems like its limited to that, and nothing else. The forcefields will go down evetually, that energy is not going anywhere. The question is when you make the protoss use that energy and where. Do i invest 16 roaches and some speedlings early and make him use the saved up energy on the sentries at his natural rather than waiting for the 12 sentries with 200 energy to cut your roach / hidra army in half ? I think we can both agree that FFs are a serious problem but 16 roaches and some speedlings while you take a 3rd are not a big investment when you think you're forcing defensive use of forcefields. Thats just how i play right now because i'm sick of dealing with the huge protoss ball in mid-game. You will never match him in army strenght so i feel its best to do this early. Moreover i think you miss-understand the purpose of my attack. Its by no means a game-ender though win some cases it will win you the game. Still the push is there mostly for pressure and basically to wear him down before his ball gets too big.
So your saying you want to sacrifise 8 roaches for 3 forcefields when your taking your 3rd? why are you even giving out lessons? or do you mean that a good protoss will preemtive block their choke with FF just cause u got some roaches and lings on the other side? He will just cut your little early aggression in half and then counter-attack....
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in game vs clash it worked out indeed quite well as you could overwhelm his gate forces and his few immortals so i think its definitely a viable option there
the other game idk if its didnt prove anything as the protoss strategy was quite bad imo
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On February 01 2011 22:56 Ciara wrote:
dissagree on the big investment part, building up even a little army just to force forcefields and watch them all die more or less killing nothing, and then hoping to get into a good late game is a bad choice... try watching me vs mana/nightend from last TSL think thats a way more solid way of playing. just playing defensiv passiv, taken 3-4 bases, waiting for your protoss to over exetend or when you hit 200 food, start the match of the 200´food armies over and over and over
I dont know about you but if i play against a protoss who instead of attacking just goes for a fast 3rd base and pasively builds up to 200 with colo + void i feel like there's just nothing you can do beyond that point.
No matter what 200 army you get its still gonna lose badly. And what if when you hit 200, he still doesn't attack ? What if you're on a map like naga caverns and he has taken his 3rd base and will just turtle to 200 ? you then have to attack with your little 200 army against his defensive position but the difference now is that he will have 12 sentries with 200 energy and colosus..
Not to mention that you don't have creep for your hidras there.
Just, try +2 roaches early and see how much damage they do and how cost effective that makes them.
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On February 01 2011 22:56 Ciara wrote:
dissagree on the big investment part, building up even a little army just to force forcefields and watch them all die more or less killing nothing, and then hoping to get into a good late game is a bad choice... try watching me vs mana/nightend from last TSL think thats a way more solid way of playing. just playing defensiv passiv, taken 3-4 bases, waiting for your protoss to over exetend or when you hit 200 food, start the match of the 200´food armies over and over and over
where can we find those games ?
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EPT
