ZvP December Build

On January 26 2011 00:37 MorefaSho wrote:
These are some questions, not criticisms, just trying to think through the builds a little bit.

What's your trigger with this build to get extra queens for air defense. I do like earlier evo chambers and have been trying to use them in ZvP as some builds I was using couldn't really defend against DT rush builds with a slower lair.
On some maps does protoss have time to get a really fast 3rd if he gets a robo and stargate after expand and gets void-rays and immortals to bolster his 3-gate army?
Do you get overlord speed to scout their tech after expansion or do you try to all-in off of 2-base before heavy colossus timing if you suspect they're teching?

On January 26 2011 00:57 mlbrandow wrote:
can you upload the replay to topreplays or similar website where I don't have to input an email or login information to download the file?

On January 26 2011 01:33 Marooned wrote:
This seems like a good build against the 6 gate. I've been doing the roach burrow thing, with desent success. But for us mere humans its not allways easy to spot if its a 6 gate or 5 gate robo and then the burrow is pretty useless. Same goes with forge fe into 6 gate if theres cannons in the nat (witch it usually is) the +2 will be way more helpful when putting pressure back on than the burrow. Gonna try this one out for sure

Keep up the good work Desember! Our zvz coaching session has already been fruitful on ladder^^

On January 30 2011 23:44 Alpina wrote:
I was using this long ago. Pretty much the same what machine was coaching MrBitter on his stream, just this one is without burrow which is bad imo because 6 gate does not have detection.

On January 31 2011 01:15 decemberTV wrote:


+1 as the alternative to burrow and before lair -.-

DECEMBER BUILD

k ? and don't talk about machine / bitter like you completely understand their builds

On January 31 2011 01:29 Alpina wrote:


I just don't get why name the build with your name when pretty much the only change is few timings and 1 upgrade. Just like I would take "your" build right now, change one timing and then call it by my name.

On January 31 2011 01:53 TheRPGAddict wrote:
Just a question on the gas timings. When do you put your drones back into your single gas. Then your 2nd and 3rd come after starting +1 attack and then the 4th comes after starting lair correct? Or are those just some loose/flexible timings?

On January 31 2011 02:08 Skinnyowllegs wrote:
haha "the december build"! More like standard zvp but with slightly earlier +1... Nice try though...

On January 31 2011 02:14 AnotherEon wrote:
if you have to withhold simple info like that to get people to buy coaching from a nonamer such as yourself, then i cant see why anyone would buy coaching from you ^^

On January 31 2011 02:15 Skinnyowllegs wrote:
well its kinda a stupid build tbh, and it doesnt work against good players, since they will prevent you from scouting whatever tech they choose to go unless you have lair... and if u go +1 before lair you will not have time to defend airplay pheonix build from 2 bases... Nice try but no banana!

On January 31 2011 02:20 decemberTV wrote:


now excuse me but when one sees phoenix one builds spores at minerals lines not ? o.O

fail >_<;

but keep trying.

On January 31 2011 02:20 gibb wrote:
lol egotripping much decmber?

Decent idea tho, also using the evo as a wallin structure helps vs 4gating.

On January 31 2011 02:26 Skinnyowllegs wrote:


the 4 pheonixes will have supply capped you to 0 ten times over, before your spores finnishes...

On January 31 2011 02:11 decemberTV wrote:


I can't talk about that Unless its during coaching. However the general rule whenever you see a nexus is that your economy should take presendece over anything else, unless you want to pressure with some early roaches. Not really possible vs the 3 gate expand.

On January 31 2011 02:08 Skinnyowllegs wrote:
haha "the december build"! More like standard zvp but with slightly earlier +1... Nice try though...

On January 31 2011 03:31 superllama wrote:
...k, so that's how to time +1. That's like the intermediate level of timing; the timing of your own structures/production. It has nothing to do with the timing of your opponent's builds. (That's the advanced level of timing that made things like 2-Hatch Muta so powerful in brood war). It just kind of randomly happens to sorta kinda defend a 6gate, not even with tight timing in regards to the Toss's build, as evidenced by the "comfortable timing" you say it has. You know why? It's because for God's sake, it's just a fast +1! It's a "comfortable timing" because we're not playing rock-paper-scissors, where this counters this counters this! It's like you're trying to name "Build-Spine-Crawlers-to-Kill-Hellions" after yourself!

I've got no beef with my homie Fast +1, (although usually -- though not always [I'm looking at you Siege Tech, as long as the strat calls for it anyway] -- getting an upgrade ultra-fast, especially long ones like +1, to defend rather than attack is a bad sign. And before you yell "Baneling Speed!" no, I'm not forgetting. But i'm digressing; go watch a Day9 Daily for explanation lol :D ), but it's like when that guy tried to name dropping single units out of a Medivac onto Banelings. I might as well name a tactic like cliffing tanks the Superllama Tanks, or go back to Brood War and name ye olde fast +1 Zeal/Archon push the Superllama Rapes Face Cause He's So Awesome Build.

And seriously, not telling the guy who asked the gas timing? When he could just look at the replay and find it himself in 5 minutes? So this entire "build" was just advertising for your coaching services? Because if you're not even gonna explain it unless I pay you money, I don't see why you need to post to teach me how to build an Evo Chamber. (Those gasses have more to do with your transition than your opening, anyway).

Besides, the strength of a build isn't in the numbers, it's in the strategy, typically the advanced level of timings reached when considering the OTHER guy's strategy, e.g. ye also-olde 9Minute Push in BW ZvT. If your build is so strategically brilliant, we'll remember you for your genius, not your number-crunching.

On January 31 2011 02:15 Skinnyowllegs wrote:
well its kinda a stupid build tbh, and it doesnt work against good players, since they will prevent you from scouting whatever tech they choose to go unless you have lair... and if u go +1 before lair you will not have time to defend airplay pheonix build from 2 bases... Nice try but no banana!

On February 01 2011 22:20 decemberTV wrote:


Please download and watch this replay.

http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4346/decemvre_vs_Joe

On February 01 2011 22:29 Sunstuff wrote:
You are joking right? if he 4 gates that build is idiotic...

On February 01 2011 22:26 Ciara wrote:
The build is not horrible, but it aint good either. What if the 6 gate never comes? and even if it come i see you losing to lots of forcefield stalkers. its a "safe" build, but like skinnyowllegs said you gonna lose to good players with this

On February 01 2011 22:41 Ciara wrote:
Eh, by no means are you suggesting a Roach push can actually do any damage to a toss player who know how to place forcefield and defend correctly, cause trust me, it dont. Not saying you strat cant actually work at defending a 6 gate, but it seems like its limited to that, and nothing else.

On February 01 2011 22:51 decemberTV wrote:


The forcefields will go down evetually, that energy is not going anywhere. The question is when you make the protoss use that energy and where. Do i invest 16 roaches and some speedlings early and make him use the saved up energy on the sentries at his natural rather than waiting for the 12 sentries with 200 energy to cut your roach / hidra army in half ?

I think we can both agree that FFs are a serious problem but 16 roaches and some speedlings while you take a 3rd are not a big investment when you think you're forcing defensive use of forcefields.

Thats just how i play right now because i'm sick of dealing with the huge protoss ball in mid-game. You will never match him in army strenght so i feel its best to do this early.

Moreover i think you miss-understand the purpose of my attack. Its by no means a game-ender though win some cases it will win you the game. Still the push is there mostly for pressure and basically to wear him down before his ball gets too big.

On February 01 2011 22:56 Ciara wrote:
dissagree on the big investment part, building up even a little army just to force forcefields and watch them all die more or less killing nothing, and then hoping to get into a good late game is a bad choice... try watching me vs mana/nightend from last TSL think thats a way more solid way of playing. just playing defensiv passiv, taken 3-4 bases, waiting for your protoss to over exetend or when you hit 200 food, start the match of the 200´food armies over and over and over

On February 01 2011 22:56 Ciara wrote:
dissagree on the big investment part, building up even a little army just to force forcefields and watch them all die more or less killing nothing, and then hoping to get into a good late game is a bad choice... try watching me vs mana/nightend from last TSL think thats a way more solid way of playing. just playing defensiv passiv, taken 3-4 bases, waiting for your protoss to over exetend or when you hit 200 food, start the match of the 200´food armies over and over and over

On February 01 2011 23:27 Ciara wrote:
Dont know what game you are playing, a protss who takes 3 bases fast are way overextending what he can actually defend and should never be allowed as zerg. and yes colosus voids are a bitch to deal with, but if you are sitting at 200 food as zerg against 200 food toss, you more or less always lose and was not what i was saying, you hit 200 food as zerg before toss, and when you hit 200 food your ress start to build up, you attack and can more or less remax instantly again, yes you probably lose the fight but you can pick off quite a bit and make the army you want to deal with him while remaxing, cutting corruptors or getting more, mass roaches vs Templer tech and so on.

and do know how important upgrads are on Hydra/roaches but it dont justify going for them that early and cut into your econemy just to defend some push that might never come. sure you been succesfull with your roach pushes afterwards, but lets be real, which GOOD protoss have you ever played with it?

last but not least, why would i change my play style against toss seeing im beating who are considered the best toss players outside of korea white-ra/nightend/mana sadly lost to cruncher the TSL before were i was stupid enough to try some roach push of 2 bases, which i may add he shut down completly and steam roll me afterwards

On February 01 2011 23:27 Ciara wrote:
Dont know what game you are playing, a protss who takes 3 bases fast are way overextending what he can actually defend and should never be allowed as zerg. and yes colosus voids are a bitch to deal with, but if you are sitting at 200 food as zerg against 200 food toss, you more or less always lose and was not what i was saying, you hit 200 food as zerg before toss, and when you hit 200 food your ress start to build up, you attack and can more or less remax instantly again, yes you probably lose the fight but you can pick off quite a bit and make the army you want to deal with him while remaxing, cutting corruptors or getting more, mass roaches vs Templer tech and so on.

and do know how important upgrads are on Hydra/roaches but it dont justify going for them that early and cut into your econemy just to defend some push that might never come. sure you been succesfull with your roach pushes afterwards, but lets be real, which GOOD protoss have you ever played with it?

last but not least, why would i change my play style against toss seeing im beating who are considered the best toss players outside of korea white-ra/nightend/mana sadly lost to cruncher the TSL before were i was stupid enough to try some roach push of 2 bases, which i may add he shut down completly and steam roll me afterwards

On February 01 2011 23:38 decemberTV wrote:


Don't be defensive i'm not trying to discredit you as a player. I'm simply saying that i like to attack into the protoss before 200 so i dont have to deal with his ball of death in midgame .

Now if thats better or not remains to be seen.

On February 01 2011 23:47 SubtleArt wrote:
It seems like your drone count would be pretty low but I'll definitely give it a shot. I remember fiddling around with +1 melee builds for ZvZ a while back.
2 questions though:

any reason in particular that you think +1 range is more worth it than +1 armor? Ive always assumed armor to be more valuable.

Second, ever since the patch that fixed pylon blocking a ramp I've been pretty comfortable 14 hatching vs toss and I find it gives a better econ. Would this build work with a 14h too or do you need to 14gas to have enough gas for everything.

On February 02 2011 00:06 Ciara wrote:
Funny how you thinking sc2 ranking me, and not seeing my account im playing on, barely played any games on that account since master league came out, but sure hope that made you feel better about yourself, a reason iv gotten top 16 in all 3 TSL iv played, and you havent even hit what? top 64?

On February 02 2011 00:09 Sadform wrote:


The question really is... who cares?

On February 02 2011 00:15 Skinnyowllegs wrote:


Good players, not random diamond scrubs like yourself

On February 02 2011 00:06 Ciara wrote:
Funny how you thinking sc2 ranking me, and not seeing my account im playing on, barely played any games on that account since master league came out, but sure hope that made you feel better about yourself, a reason iv gotten top 16 in all 3 TSL iv played, and you havent even hit what? top 64?

On February 01 2011 22:26 Ciara wrote:
The build is not horrible, but it aint good either. What if the 6 gate never comes? and even if it come i see you losing to lots of forcefield stalkers. its a "safe" build, but like skinnyowllegs said you gonna lose to good players with this

On February 02 2011 00:22 Communism wrote:
My standard ZvP against a 6-gate is speed/burrow roach timing attack of about 18 roaches (dpending on how much they pressured), this usually ends the game right here or at least denies their expansion.

I like the idea of the +1 also, but i have tried this as well and I feel like it reduces my roach count too much, (by like 4-6 roaches : 75 for chamber plus 150 150 for upgrade) at the critical timing right when burrow/speed finishes. That is what makes this attack so strong is because it usually hits before detection is out (unless they forge expanded in which you have to be careful and snipe cannons)., unless you scouted early robo in which case you should not get burrow and tech switch before you make a lot of roaches.

On February 02 2011 00:06 Ciara wrote:
Funny how you thinking sc2 ranking me, and not seeing my account im playing on, barely played any games on that account since master league came out, but sure hope that made you feel better about yourself, a reason iv gotten top 16 in all 3 TSL iv played, and you havent even hit what? top 64?

On February 02 2011 00:49 Geo.Rion wrote:
my problem with this is that almost every P goes for at least a pressure build if he's not forge expanding( and sometimes even so), what you can hold off with either a tone of units or roaches with speed and/or burrow. If you delay the Lair that heavily you wont have either of it out, in my experience, and i play on pretty much the same rankings, i even played the guys you beat in the reps. Clash could have done some serious demage had he not retreat seeing 16 lings and 2 crawlers, on Xelanaga, those crawlers can be avoided, and with that many sentries lings wouldnt have been bale to do much.
I certainly can see this one working out, but it's rather up to the opponent not taking advantage of the holes in it.
Not to mention often protosses fake going 3 gate expand and allin hardcore instead with some hidden gates / tech, and then your half way done +1 wont help out too much.

Very recently i died to an expention build which turned out to be a 4 gate allin after placing the nexus. It was stupid, but because of it, i had no chance to hold it off.

But it's great that you try to help zergs out there

[B]last but not least, why would i change my play style against toss seeing im beating who are considered the best toss players outside of korea white-ra/nightend/mana sadly lost to cruncher the TSL before were i was stupid enough to try some roach push of 2 bases, which i may add he shut down completly and steam roll me afterwards

On February 02 2011 01:12 decemberTV wrote:


If you watch the actual replay you can see that the evo is only made AFTER you see a nexus >,<;

Please, Please ! watch the replay before you comment : (

On February 02 2011 02:21 Ciara wrote:
First of all i am probably a douche dont really care, second i only started naming players cause he dont seem to wanna listen to reason, so he beat some toss on ladder with it... dont really mean its a good build by any mean.

Only reason i wrote in here in the first place, was cause he felt like showing his stream how wrong he thought skinnyowllegs was, and making it seem like he is stupid, when in reality he is correct

On February 02 2011 00:56 Matiz_pl wrote:
3200 master(damn, name of this league sounds so pretentious) here,
I've tried this builid and it works pretty good so far, I prefer this over burrow because
1. It gives advantage in later stages of game - burrow doesnt help that much vs huge collosus ball while +1 attack certainly does.
2. Other units also gain something because of this builid - +1 atk hydras get significant dps boost. hydras and lings dont gain much from burrow.
3. It's just easier to use - you basically can a-move vs toss and u dont have to care that much, while burrow takes some apm to use. Futhermore, you can also start roach production later because your units are stronger so it leaves more room to drone up.

Probably just like communism said, timings of the burrow make it better to be aggressive, while timing december builid is better if u want to be defensive. Im super greedy so fast +1atk suits me better. GJ

On February 02 2011 07:51 decemberTV wrote:


thank you for your feedback Matiz ^_^. Nice to see someone actually trying the build before they comment on it. i'm sorry i overlooked it because of all the commotion caused by other people :D

On January 31 2011 01:29 Alpina wrote:


I just don't get why name the build with your name when pretty much the only change is few timings and 1 upgrade. Just like I would take "your" build right now, change one timing and then call it by my name.

On February 02 2011 02:21 Ciara wrote:
First of all i am probably a douche dont really care, second i only started naming players cause he dont seem to wanna listen to reason, so he beat some toss on ladder with it... dont really mean its a good build by any mean.

Only reason i wrote in here in the first place, was cause he felt like showing his stream how wrong he thought skinnyowllegs was, and making it seem like he is stupid, when in reality he is correct

On January 31 2011 01:15 decemberTV wrote:


+1 as the alternative to burrow and before lair -.-

DECEMBER BUILD

k ? and don't talk about machine / bitter like you completely understand their builds

On February 04 2011 02:27 innoby wrote:


Getting a little cocky? When you win a major tournament maybe I'll be a little more forgiving of this particular attitude, but right now all you are is a self aggrandizing masterleague zerg player who happens to stream alot, and honestly though quite good, is a little one dimensional in your play.

Don't think to assume that just because someone doesn't play at the same you do that they can't possibly understand the intricacies of pro level play. I am not pro, but your build has one rather huge problem, your lair is out too late to get OL speed, this keeps you more or less BLIND.

So, yes this build can handle the 6gate timing push alot of toss pull, and it will run over a toss that went stargate expand who didn't keep producing phoenix. What it WON'T stop is Phoenix DT play, by giving up the hydra den and going late lair, you give toss map control, you cannot push out of your base while a toss has more than just a handful of phoenix and a couple DT's. YOu can't snipe the Phoenix who will kill your overseers and once that happens who cares that your army is larger?

Don't tell me that "at my level building more than 5 phoenix will cost someone the game" because every phoenix built is 1 less unit for you. With no primary AA unit it's not too difficult to confine you to base and punish you for leaving your queens at home, or punish you for taking your queens with your army. If you build enough spores, your economy WILL suffer, too many queens not enough mins in roaches, Hydras are the most efficient method of dealing with mass phoenix from toss, and mass phoenix is comming into favor.

I had no problem with you until you started talking down to someone you don't know. Your build is efficient for one or two instances, but it is still a 1a build... Understand the flaws of the build, everyone that has asked about them, you put down and browbeat like you are the Zerg god. Until you roll over fruit dealer 3-0 in a BO5 you have no right to tell people they don't know what they are talking about. BTW, your build gets hella countered by something that looks a helluva lot like a 6gate.