EPT[G] Ultras in ZvT /w image heavy + reps - Page 8
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Deleuze
United Kingdom2102 Posts
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Xeken
United States77 Posts
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SchLing
Norway27 Posts
On January 26 2011 23:53 DizzyDrone wrote: Did you even consider that he might just be talking about the games discussed in his post? Maybe, I just didn't read it like that. I do hope you are right though  | ||
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itsme
Canada46 Posts
2600~ master z | ||
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s031720
Sweden383 Posts
On January 27 2011 00:19 itsme wrote: ive read ur post and frankly, I'm not convinced precisely because that ultra/bling costs a LOT of gas. I would prefer just going mass ultra ling and instead of ling/bling/muta for unit comp i simply go for ling/bling/roach and later ling/bling/roach/infestor into ling/ultra because ultras already have the splash damage which kills marines and lings can kill tanks easily. mutas get splash killed by 3-4 thors which leaves the rest of the ling/bling army stranded.and also u never mentioned the all heavy army which consists of mainly thors and marauders that take the hit for banelings and the rest of the ultra army would be cleaned up by the marauders heavy hits. if u can explain to me how u can get enough gas for this ill be happy 2600~ master z If he goes heavy on marauder/thors; I would say that muta/ling infestor is your best bet. I like the OPs suggestion and would find it interesting to see it put to test by some good players; but its not an end-all-supersolution-to-everything idea. If you are looking for that sort of thing you should play terran...  And the problem with ultra/ling is that lings get in the way of Ultras, which has been known since Beta, and in suggesting such you bascially disregard most of what the OP is trying to achieve. The baneling-approach is a new one though, so it would be interesting to see it tested out by ppl who are big enough authorities to end this discussion one way or another. As for mutas vs Thors; i think you need 4 or 5 magic-boxed mutas to kill a thor, so if they go marauder without marines they will still loose to muta/ling; although this is the one rare case where I think infestors can use NP with good effect. | ||
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Xeken
United States77 Posts
As for gas, while my progression isn't quite the same as the OPs, I've felt that 2 base support infestor/hydra (a handful of each) + upgrades easily, then start teching to ultra as you are grabbing the 3rd. 3 bases for ultra, 4 bases for bling. | ||
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krash666
1 Post
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Selkie
United States530 Posts
Thors, in general, also eat banelings really well, but I'm unsure nowadays if that'd be as effective, as my entire army recently got decimated by banelings in a fight. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On January 27 2011 00:03 Umpteen wrote: I can't remember the games exactly, but no. To my recollection he massed ultralisks, relying upon them to do damage as well as soak it up. This thread advocates combining a more modest number of ultralisks with a considerable number of banelings. The ultralisks stop the banelings getting gibbed before they get in range, and the banelings kill everything so quickly that the ultralisks don't end up taking as much damage. Result: some ultralisks left over which can be quickly reinforced with more banelings to lead a second charge. I remember being particularly impressed by Fruitdealer's use of ultras, it seemed like he had a much deeper understanding of how to use them than anyone else at the time. Here's game 1 of the final: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1148 He relies on his patented ling/bling/roach/infestor composition during the mid-game (with a few mutas thrown in), and then starts mixing ultras in. At no point is he going pure ultralisk, although he didn't really use the ultra/bane combo. To be fair, this is before terrans started pressuring the shit out of zergs, so the whole character of the game is a bit different. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 27 2011 02:23 whatthefat wrote: I remember being particularly impressed by Fruitdealer's use of ultras, it seemed like he had a much deeper understanding of how to use them than anyone else at the time. Here's game 1 of the final: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1148 He relies on his patented ling/bling/roach/infestor composition during the mid-game (with a few mutas thrown in), and then starts mixing ultras in. At no point is he going pure ultralisk, although he didn't really use the ultra/bane combo. To be fair, this is before terrans started pressuring the shit out of zergs, so the whole character of the game is a bit different. I kinda laugh when people talk about how prolific FruitDealers winning GSL1 was. The game has gotten so much difference in those 3 months, its pretty laughable to see Rainbow sitting around in his base with tank/thor/whatever? Just goes to show the biggest factor that helped FD win the first GSL is that nobody knew wtf they were doing. | ||
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keioh
France1099 Posts
Seeing the cost of the ultralisk, I definetely agree that you can't reinforce with ultralisks everytime. But by the time you have busted the terran front, map is now open for your lings/roach/whatever. On a side note, I lol'd so hard at the "Damn." picture. The first time we broke a front with a Z friend with alot (25 total) ultras with over 9000 banelings because we were raging effin' hard in our anticipating "HOW COULD WE WIN THIS" end of the game, we were stunned. Then we lol'd. | ||
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PopoChampion
Australia91 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote: Actually, this is false. Tank damage is so high because of splash and almost nothing else. Their single target damage to armored targets in siege mode is actually less than their unsieged DPS. Ultralisks, when hit by tanks, are so large they absorb ALL splash. A tank shot hitting an ultralisk will result in 0 zergling or baneling deaths. A tank shot hitting a broodling will probably spill over onto zerglings and banelings. How is a tank shot hitting a broodling going to do splash damage to zerglings & banelings? Broodlings spawn right next to their target in melee range; do you pull back your broodlings and group them with your other units? rofl, of course not. Tank shots hitting broodlings will only splash other broodlings (and tanks, and marines). Who cares if splash damage is hitting free units? Every point of damage that broodlings take, is wasted terran damage. I maintain that tanks will do less damage to your army overall if you're using broodlords over ultras. On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote: The downside is that broodlords are slower. A greater spire takes 100 seconds to morph. An ultralisk cavern takes only 65 seconds. Granted, the upgrade does take 110 seconds to finish. However, if you start the upgrade once the cavern completes, that means that your first round of ultras will have the upgrade within 40 seconds after spawning. If you add the build time of a corruptor to the time it takes to morph a broodlord, it's actually 4 seconds longer than the build time of an ultralisk (74 seconds). Something for your consideration: Cavern+armor upgrade= 175 seconds (ultralisks are out by 135 seconds) Greater spire+corruptor build time+morph time= 184 seconds Your math is wrong. You can build your corruptors while the greater spire is building, so that they're ready to morph as soon as the greater spire completes. So actually it's just greater spire + morph time = 134, which makes them about even if you don't wait for the armor upgrade, and makes ultras significantly slower if you do. Either way, that doesn't change the fact that ultras require upgrades to be effective, broodlords don't. On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote: Broodlords don't synergize better, they just synergize. Ultralisks share all the same upgrades too. If you don't go mutalisk heavy, spending money on air upgrades isn't necessary, which offsets (imo) the cost of the ultralisk armor upgrade. Why spend 100/100 or more on air attack upgrades if you'll only build 8-12 mutalisks all game long? it's debatable, but I believe even without air upgrades, broodlords benefit more from melee/carapace upgrades than ultras do. So even if you don't get air upgrades, broodlords scale better. besides, anything more than 10 mutas, and you should be getting level 1 air attack anyway. On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote: This isn't always the case. Often, vikings are parked on top of thors next to tanks. A broodlord will take damage from vikings and if mutalisks intervene, they'll eat thor missile damage. Corruptors are a slightly better response, due to being armored and have 2 base armor. If he doesn't have any thors, then yes, you're correct... but can you really remember any times you've come up against a late-game Terran without thor support? Uh, throwing away your mutas is a big mistake. You can always avoid such a mistake. So yes, it is always the case. Muta + a few corruptors can handle vikings long enough for your broodlords to do their damage. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, are you saying because of 1-3 thors on the field, that the drawbacks of broodlord outweigh the drawbacks of ultras? Let me remind you of some of the commonly-mentioned ultra drawbacks, NONE of which broodlords have: -can't fly; very slow off creep -requires at least 2-2 in melee/carapace to be cost-effective -melee only -too big, gets stuck on units and runs around dealing no damage. -as a result of the above two, ultras are completely useless in a choke. This one deserves special mention, it means that unless you're fighting in an open area, ultras' effectiveness are severely reduced; broodlords don't have this problem at all. Compared to the drawbacks of broodlords: -slower than on-creep ultras -vulnerable to vikings These points have been made over and over again, by ladder & tournament players alike. Another thing that favors broodlords: ultras don't force the terran to get a different unit, whereas brood lords force terran to get vikings, which are basically useful only for countering the brood lords. On January 26 2011 08:26 Toxigen wrote: Personally, I think it might be better to give switching the tech a shot. Start with a couple ultralisks and then switch into broodlords to help unsiege tanks and then swarm in with a couple ultralisks to take shots while the ling/baneling cleans up. I still think the OP's use of ultralisks shows promise. ultras can certainly be useful, but never as good as broodlords as a first hive tech choice. There's a reason why zerg will almost always opt for broodlords over ultras when they get hive. Actually, there's many reasons, they've all been known for the longest time, I just reiterated them in my post to remind our readers. Because of all of those reasons, the advantages of choosing broodlords first greatly outweigh the advantages of choosing ultras first. But I do think that switching to ultras when terran starts getting a huge fleet of vikings is a good idea. That was quite a long post, but I wanted to address the each of the points that were made. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On January 27 2011 02:26 Jermstuddog wrote: Just goes to show the biggest factor that helped FD win the first GSL is that nobody knew wtf they were doing. Sure, but that's what made it so impressive. He was clearly on a different level to anyone else at the time. I remember watching his games and thinking: "this is incredible, nobody in SC2 plays zerg anything like this". | ||
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TiBe
Mexico200 Posts
I have tested (both Brood and Ultras) and I prefer fast (in the meaning of the tech time) Ultras than Brood. But maybe I'm doing something wrong with my Brood.. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Large numbers of mutas are scary, large numbers of banes are scary, large numbers of any zerg unit are scary. It seems like you will be deliberately sitting on lower supply to leave room for your ultras while I'll just keep going for max, if i notice that your army is smaller than mine..... ill go ram my shit down your throat. Perhaps I've misunderstood the strat, but low muta numbers means i can just make a bunch of vikings or 1 thor and be completely safe at home and able to expand and attack with impunity. If you only have ling/bane to defend with, tanks will crush it. You will be dead before you can get enough Ultras out for them to be effective. 2-3 ultras aren't scary at all, 10 ultras are scary. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
How is a tank shot hitting a broodling going to do splash damage to zerglings & banelings? Broodlings spawn right next to their target in melee range; do you pull back your broodlings and group them with your other units? rofl, of course not. Tank shots hitting broodlings will only splash other broodlings (and tanks, and marines). Who cares if splash damage is hitting free units? Every point of damage that broodlings take, is wasted terran damage. I maintain that tanks will do less damage to your army overall if you're using broodlords over ultras. This is true if you're not engaging with the rest of your army. However, once (if?) you actually engage, you're still getting splashed. 35+ damage splashed around a ball of lings (or targeting a broodling and splashing onto a ling trying to get in range) is way more damage (and DPS lost) overall than a 500 hit point ultralisk losing a 10% of his life. The fact of the matter is, ultralisks help mitigate splash which is the number one (if not only) reason why Terrans even use siege tanks. Mitigating splash does more to keep your actual units alive than spawning "free" ones. That's my point. Your math is wrong. You can build your corruptors while the greater spire is building, so that they're ready to morph as soon as the greater spire completes. So actually it's just greater spire + morph time = 134, which makes them about even if you don't wait for the armor upgrade, and makes ultras significantly slower if you do. Okay, I'll concede this. However, it's still interesting to note that to make the times competitive, you'll have to spawn corruptors beforehand and they'll be useless supply until the other tech kicks in, which if you're going the ultralisk route, you could actually max on useful units, including ultralisks, while waiting for ultralisk armor tech to finish. Either way, we're talking a negligible amount of supply and mere seconds, so I won't go into this any further. Either way, that doesn't change the fact that ultras require upgrades to be effective, broodlords don't. Every unit requires upgrades to be effective. Ultralisks require one 150/150 upgrade and no spire upgrades. Spire attack upgrades (remember your point about synergy earlier) require at LEAST 100/100. I don't see ultralisks requiring any more upgrades than broodlords do. it's debatable, but I believe even without air upgrades, broodlords benefit more from melee/carapace upgrades than ultras do. So even if you don't get air upgrades, broodlords scale better. I'm not sure what you mean by "benefit more," in this situation. If you're talking about broodlings, tanks 1 shot them, so armor doesn't really help them there. Attack definitely would, because there's more of them attacking and at a faster rate than the ultralisk. Then again, the ultralisk has splash and gets a lot of damage vs. armored from upgrades. I guess it's situational. I wouldn't agree broodlords scale better without more proof. Ultralisks do shrug off marine fire like nobody's business (at least when compared to zerglings). Marines are decent against low numbers of broodlords if they can get close enough. besides, anything more than 10 mutas, and you should be getting level 1 air attack anyway. I currently overdo it on mutalisks but feel like my army is far too flimsy for most of the mid-game. I'm starting to wonder if there's a better answer out there that provides a bit more security/stability. Eating one bad splash hit from a thor while harassing really hurts when your first line of defense is mutalisks. Uh, throwing away your mutas is a big mistake. You can always avoid such a mistake. So yes, it is always the case. Muta + a few corruptors can handle vikings long enough for your broodlords to do their damage. I never advised throwing away mutalisks. You've still not explained how I'm magically able to hit and run engage these vikings within range of thor AA without losing mutalisks. That was my point. Mutalisk range is too short. To get into range of the vikings, you'll eat thor missiles. You'll lose more than the Terran. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, are you saying because of 1-3 thors on the field, that the drawbacks of broodlord outweigh the drawbacks of ultras? Actually, this would be the opposite of the point you're construing that I'm making. I'm saying that: 1. You shouldn't use ultralisks as a re-max unit. 2. You should transition to ultralisks without throwing away your army to re-max. 3. Opening ultralisks as hive-tech and then switching to corruptors/BL hasn't been explored, and maybe it should be. 4. You don't need to have an army comprised of all ultralisks for ultralisks to be effective -- in fact, more than 3 probably hurts more than helps. 5. Saying that mutalisks can protect your broodlords from vikings is unrealistic if the Terran has thors supporting the vikings. You'll lose the broodlords and maybe mutalisks (again, please don't somehow misinterpret this as me advocating through mutalisks away [?]). Are these really drawbacks? -can't fly; very slow off creep Fair enough -- ultralisks can't fly. But they're the same speed as speed banelings off creep. Would you disqualify the use of banelings against Terran by virtue of their speed? Why the double standard against ultralisks? -requires at least 2-2 in melee/carapace to be cost-effective So does the rest of your ling/bling army. You should have these upgrades anyway. This isn't a drawback. These are actual drawbacks (as opposed to saying that "ultralisks can't fly," while most of the rest of your army can't either). They can be lessened by simply making less of them: -melee only -too big, gets stuck on units and runs around dealing no damage. -as a result of the above two, ultras are completely useless in a choke. This one deserves special mention, it means that unless you're fighting in an open area, ultras' effectiveness are severely reduced; broodlords don't have this problem at all. Compared to the drawbacks of broodlords: -slower than on-creep ultras -vulnerable to vikings They're also slower than off-creep ultralisks. In fact, off-creep ultralisks are TWICE AS FAST. Off-creep. Another thing that favors broodlords: ultras don't force the terran to get a different unit, whereas brood lords force terran to get vikings, which are basically useful only for countering the brood lords. This might be true. The current thinking is: BLs force vikings, Z switches to ultralisks, vikings are useless. However, going ultralisks first means he's not going to have the vikings for a BL switch later, perhaps improving the effectiveness of those BLs. How come the logic doesn't work both ways? It just seems like blind BL bias. ultras can certainly be useful, but never as good as broodlords as a first hive tech choice. There's a reason why zerg will almost always opt for broodlords over ultras when they get hive. Actually, there's many reasons, they've all been known for the longest time, I just reiterated them in my post to remind our readers. Because of all of those reasons, the advantages of choosing broodlords first greatly outweigh the advantages of choosing ultras first. But I do think that switching to ultras when terran starts getting a huge fleet of vikings is a good idea. I think the one of the points of the OP is that ultralisks are a shitty standalone unit, yet that's how everybody uses them (a re-max after broodlords of like 10 ultralisks). I think he's arguing for using ultralisks like how people use broodlords, which I honestly rarely (never?) see: 3-4 total as a supplement to your current army. Nobody would suggest that you sacrifice an army and re-max with broodlords. They're easy to kill unsupported and they take too long. Yet people do it with ultralisks even though ultralisks are similar in both regards? That was quite a long post, but I wanted to address the each of the points that were made. I appreciate it. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On January 27 2011 03:29 Toxigen wrote: long post I'm not gonna keep arguing here. We both seem pretty convinced that our argument is right, but even by trying to refute each and every point I make, you haven't disproven my main point: Brood lords are a better 1st hive tech choice than ultras in most situations, but especially so against a tank-heavy army. For the reasons I explained. It's not any one reason, it's all of the reasons put together. On January 27 2011 02:55 TiBe wrote: Blasius, maybe you should post replays like CuteSmallHydra did, otherwise it sounds like pure theorycrafting. I have tested (both Brood and Ultras) and I prefer fast (in the meaning of the tech time) Ultras than Brood. But maybe I'm doing something wrong with my Brood.. pure theorycrafting? lol, I'm not trying to 'convince' anyone, I'm simply explaining why everyone already does this. Want proof? There's tons of high-level ZvT replays where zerg goes brood lords as a first tech choice. Just pick a replay site and find some long zvt games. Let me reiterate. Most high-level players have this viewpoint: On January 25 2011 20:54 DarKFoRcE wrote: I dont agree, against tanks i find broodlords the better choice. Sure, ultras can work as a techswitch from broodlords, or if you are very far ahead, ultras also work. but in a close game i have never had any success with ultras, whereas only a few broodlords can be a great help against a tank + x push. and I laid out the reasons for that. | ||
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
But I guess ultras are viable afterall. | ||
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ShindyK2
Korea (South)19 Posts
N yeah broodlords good against tanks because they are just epic size manta-rays of death that shred mech units from a RANGE, where as Ultras are Melee and stim marine DPS + Tanks > Ultras unless you forced them into viking heavy with broodlords first. All the progamers know that Broods > Ultras when it comes to countering sieged tanks and this is a fact that has been accepted long ago... infact 3 seasons of GSLs ago... | ||
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