EPTi actually think they work better...ive won several of those games despite being behind on army and food! theyre a small investment, and they still help in late game, as opposed to the mutas -
[G] Ultras in ZvT /w image heavy + reps - Page 10
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pbecot01
41 Posts
i actually think they work better...ive won several of those games despite being behind on army and food! theyre a small investment, and they still help in late game, as opposed to the mutas - | ||
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bearjuice
United States98 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
If they're in marine-tank mode and you approach with baneling-ultra, it SEEMS like a terran must decide to either stand and fight and try to rely on spreading marines out from banelings, or expose their tanks to your ultralisks - either of these are a situation which you're ready to handle. Also, what about a mineral dump for this? Lings? Roaches? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 29 2011 02:46 sylverfyre wrote: Wow, Using banelings with ultras actually really will improve ultras, as mass marine is a really solid (and frustrating) way of dealing with ultralisks. The infestor idea also (since the bane of SC2 ultralisks is being kited to death) If they're in marine-tank mode and you approach with baneling-ultra, it SEEMS like a terran must decide to either stand and fight and try to rely on spreading marines out from banelings, or expose their tanks to your ultralisks - either of these are a situation which you're ready to handle. Also, what about a mineral dump for this? Lings? Roaches? Lings are already a go-to mineral dump. Another option that hasn't really been discussed much is extra queens to transfuse your ultras, ensuring you don't have to invest in more ultras after every fight. Roaches have been discussed earlier in the thread. Basically, Roaches are fine, but everything they do for you can be better done by Ultras. So there isn't much use for them once your ultra/ling/bling death ball gets rolling. | ||
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MorsCerta
United States234 Posts
On January 29 2011 02:24 bearjuice wrote: I really think the trick to winning with ultras is mutas because it forces terran into geting defensive units to take out those mutas. Once they do that tech switch (mass marines, thors) it's time for you to tech switch into this guys build. I have built a spire but 0 mutalisks in my games so far. Spling/bling is effective enough at holding off attacks and denying 3rds (along with pooplords) Also this has allowed me to have ultralisks out much faster than otherwise. So if it seems possible, skipping mutalisks works quite well. However you should still drop a spire just in case you will need them (drops, heavy marine/tank push thats too early for ultralisks etc.) On January 29 2011 02:46 sylverfyre wrote: Wow, Using banelings with ultras actually really will improve ultras, as mass marine is a really solid (and frustrating) way of dealing with ultralisks. The infestor idea also (since the bane of SC2 ultralisks is being kited to death) If they're in marine-tank mode and you approach with baneling-ultra, it SEEMS like a terran must decide to either stand and fight and try to rely on spreading marines out from banelings, or expose their tanks to your ultralisks - either of these are a situation which you're ready to handle. Also, what about a mineral dump for this? Lings? Roaches? Adrenaline glands should be upgraded immediately upon reaching Hive so as you push with Ultra/bling/ling, you immediately reinforce with cracklings. | ||
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Phanekim
United States777 Posts
my gut says that mutas are still gonna be necessary for the transition at least at a high level. i say this because i think many terrans aren't used to dealing witht his and probably are not used to being forced to attack before you get ultra/bling. why do that when nobody was going ultra/bling, when you coulda sat back and gotten a 200 army and win. i expect terrans to be vastly more aggressive now. the good thinga bout this is that you just dont need that many ultras. you just need enough to soak up fire. so its not as gas intensive as one may think. you can just put spines and zlings for mineral dump if necessary. | ||
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Twaxter
Canada190 Posts
I cringe when playing jungle basin and seeing the terran have his third with a planetary fortress and I can't do anything against it, because 1 thor, 4 turrets and that PF just ruins my day. This is something that I really like as it is finally a cost effective unit versus that slowly moving driving me insane terran mech. Absolutely love this, sick of the straining muta/ling/bling micro. 2600 Masters Zerg <3 | ||
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Super_bricklayer
France104 Posts
On January 29 2011 00:27 vdek wrote: I tried this build out, skipping mutas entirely and surviving on lings/blings until I could get my ultras out to make a push, worked amazingly well. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-184551.jpg) I've actually been doing slings/blings/mutas into ultras for a while now. Going for +3/+3 melee upgrades while teching to ultras and it works really really well. But waiting for extra banelings makes it so much better. Made a youtube video of it via replay2avi.com, I'll probably recast it nicer later tonight. Part 1: Part 2: I'm sorry but that game is not relevant at all about the ultra, i should even say about anything. The terran get such an enormous advantage at his first push, he killed a tone of drone but let you get back in the silliest way, he stay on 2 bases for eternity let you drone like crazy. I mean you ever miss click on the statue lost a good amount of baneling and still compete in the mid game. And the worst part is that at the final battle where your food is ahead and the ultra actually didn't even take a shot ! Actually, your game makes me crying for muta ! He didn't even get a single turret and make so few marine. Don't get me wrong, i love that OP, and thinking of the ultra as a pure tank splash counter is great considering the speed synergies ( and that's the most important aspect for me ). But we need some more solid play as example ( i do think that the author's game are king off done way before the final battle, still his composition is extremely solid and give a good way of finishing a game against a terran, which i find very difficult sometimes even with a good advantage ). I'm still struggling against the mid game push when i didn't get a big advantage early, muta allows us to tempo, i do think infestor is a good way of getting to that end game composition too while adding stuff to your armies that will help you survive and ofc, help with fungal later on. For obvious reasons, muta are still very useful against drops, but nothing force us to get that spire asap, and drops aren't a big problem on 3 bases with some good creep spread and a good scouting/overlord placement. I do think that the actual mass muta ling/bling play require such a perfect execution and can be very frustrating ( i want to say, like a Warcraft 3 game :p ). | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
I've been experimenting with infestor/ling/bling into ultraling since I saw that on mrbitter's stream and I had a ton of success - I don't know how much of this is due to the fact that 90% do nothing but build marines the whole game. To those who are doubtful about not building any mutas, here's what I have found: infestors are awesome. They can deal with drops very effectively, you can leave 1 infestor at each expo and with good reaction time you can kill the medivacs before they unload - if you spot it too late you can still fungal the drop force and they most likely wont be able to do any damage before you get some other forces there to clean up. infestors are also more awesome. they greatly delay any push, terran has to be very very careful moving his forces towards you. thus you don't need mutas to keep him in his base, and you don't forfeit much in terms of map control. Speedlings are still great in denying expansions and counterattacking. more importantly, spending your gas on infestors instead of a crapton of mutas has a much greater synergy with your lategame ultraling goal. you don't need that many infestors, and the gas can be spent on getting very fast 3/3 upgrades and a fast hive. even though the core of your army is still ling/bling, it feels much more resilient; because of the upgrades, and because fungal makes banelings 5 times more effective - no more losing half of them before they can even make contact with kiting marines. So you are spending a lot less gas on banelings as well. With mutaling you are constantly spamming the e and t buttons until you run out of gas just to stay alive and you can think of getting hive when you are already mined out at both your main and nat. I think this is why idra says that ultras are just "a finishing move when you are already very far ahead": mutaling is so cost inefficient that you need to costantly dump money into it and very often die even when you have the better economy. Infestor/ling on the other hand is much better and I am starting to think that its a hard counter to marine heavy compositions. Later on you need ultras because taking down a planetary fortress behind a tank line is still very hard to do without t3. That said, there are situations where you can't really do without mutas, and so far I've found i need them against banshees- and hellion- heavy compositions. | ||
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Skunkworks
Canada1 Post
I'm by no means a great player, but I tested this strat many times over the last few days and I simply love it, it just changes the mid to late game for me. Before that, I felt compelled to win during mid game with strong muta harass, I'm now just playing the ''I will survive till I get 6 ultras and 80 banelings'' and I will break your siege line, reinforce with cracklings or roaches and will be back for more. I just freaking just love it. Now, the best thing is: IT ALSO WORKS FOR TOSS DEATHBALL!!! 5 Ultras and 60-80 banelings will annihilate 8 colossus + around 30 stalkers (total gaz costs were nearly equal) in a few seconds. I did it in a unit tester before trying it with a friend of mine, but it would be awesome if a good player could test this against a high level toss. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
As for the downsides of drops, you can keep overlords around your base in the air-like situations, this will tell you when a drop is coming and position, negating the need for mutas. I usually go Muta, ling, bane or infestors, ling, bane. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On February 01 2011 05:05 Torte de Lini wrote: I'd have about 16 ultras and the rest lings, usually no gas for banelings and the ultras would hog all the room in the front, Don't ever make 16 ultras, that's way too many. You never see a protoss player get 16 colossus, or a terran player get 16 thors. If you're using ultras you probably shouldn't use more than 6 or 8 at the most. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On February 01 2011 05:32 BlasiuS wrote: Don't ever make 16 ultras, that's way too many. You never see a protoss player get 16 colossus, or a terran player get 16 thors. If you're using ultras you probably shouldn't use more than 6 or 8 at the most. I was just throwing a number out there. But you're right, however, should the rest of my army be purely lings and banelings? Won't I have an excess amount of gas? | ||
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Xeken
United States77 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Or do I do some kind of two-sided attack: Ultras in front. Lings and banelings from the side? Like I said, I let Ultras go awhile back for two reasons: one; my enemy ends up going banshees that really tear apart my army for some reason and two: my ultras always just end up shuffling amongst one another, too fat to get a decent surround or hit. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
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Xeken
United States77 Posts
And if you are out of position, you just need to attack where the T isn't. It's not so much about doing damage before T gets to that location, it's about getting there before T can get there. If you don't have positional disadvantage, your army is just as cost efficient as T's. | ||
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Malminos
United States321 Posts
I'm sure it's been mentioned but infestors set up this kind of attack very nicely and make it that much more deadly against a terran who micros well as fungal growth = can't micro. But yea thanks for this OP very nice find. | ||
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.Storm
United States28 Posts
 and i was glad you mentioned the synergy of the unit compositions in SC:BW versus the unit compositions now in SCII. My only "add-on" to this guide will be like others are saying, Infestors adds the cherry on top. in your pictures i see ultras surviving and all but not that many, nor w/ that high of HP. However, if you forgo only a few banelings and get even 2 infestors, fungal growth can DRAMATICALLY increase your advantage. Just having two hotkeyed seperately and moving burrowed around and unborrowing to drop a fungal growth was enough to prevent marines from splitting all together. just TWO! and then you'll have around 50 banelings to just go to town on the tanks while the ultras are hacking away, beefing it through the tank barrage. I just noticed that you can go from 2 or 3 ultras with red hp and maybe 5 banelings left over, to about 5 in the yellow and maybe 1 in the green left over and maybe 10 banelings left over. meaning you can reinforce better (because you won't be building those 70 second ultras to replace the dead ones) and usually means you can go in with a death charge with the surviving ultras and cracklings. all i'm saying is that don't make the infestation pit only for the hive ---> ultralisk den, but rather use it for the infestors | ||
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
ultras are a nice partner i late game, not need great numbers, just a nice pack to help your combo. , and ofc speedlings and banelings are a must.. are the bread and butter of a zvt army... but i think the key of your reps are the map control, the lack of agression of terran and the nice creep/tumor workout... very nice reps and reading.. but one question still dont have an answer.. mutas or infestor? maybe its just a matter of map structure or terran decisions, but i think u need that spire early for block banshees play and make some harass, the terran need to waste money in turrets and thor, and u can cover urself pretty well from random dropship play.. more on, in the late game u can switch to corruptor if he goes to BC rollover or some broodlords for more raping action. gogogog zergs!! zvt its hard, but fun as hell!! | ||
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