EPT[G] Ultras in ZvT /w image heavy + reps - Page 11
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draknir
Australia1 Post
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
There is just so much truth in this one I'm going to give it a try! | ||
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TheDominator
New Zealand336 Posts
MrBitter also added a effective way of transitioning from midgame to lategame using his infestor build. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193058 His midgame build enhances the use of going ultras in ZvT alot. He linked this thread in his thread. Thanks a lot for posting this. This may change the metagame  | ||
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alepov
Netherlands1132 Posts
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On January 26 2011 10:09 Griffith` wrote: Most people don't realize that ultras are much better than their BW counterparts: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ultralisk http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ultralisk DMG: 20 -> 15/35 HP: 400->500 Cost: 200->300 Essentially, for 100 minerals extra, Ultras get 100 more HP and 15 more damage against armored. A very goo deal. Compare that to the tank (which was BW's only way of dealing with ultras): Siege Tanks used to 70 damage against ultras. Now they do 50. Siege Tanks cost 3 supply Siege Tanks cost 25 more gas Griffith, I don't mean to pick on you, but I've seen a lot of these kinds of posts on strategy forum threads, and many of them have major flaws in logic. You have a tone as if you are unveiling some masterful insight (and sometimes the points you make are good), but many of yours (and other peoples') posts are lacking context or thought. The post above for example: yes, ultralisks have more damage, health, and splash. But! Things have changed from SC1 to SC2. Their cost is higher (which you do mention), but also their movement speed is GREATLY reduced in comparison to other units, which is CRITICAL for melee units. Ultras can be kited/out microed because they are too slow. Furthermore, their size has increased and so their maneuverability is reduced (also extremely important for a melee unit). Lastly, with the increase in damage dealt per unit and the increase in unit "clumping" from SC1 to SC2, that means that an ultra is under more firepower by more terran units than it was in SC1. So, even though the health was increased, it DEFINITELY feels like ultras die FASTER in SC2 than in SC1. These are all factors that top level players take into account without thinking that lower level players don't think about. I have probably left out many factors to the "ultra problem" because I myself am not a top level player (mid masters). But instead using an abrasive tone with top players (I am now referring to someone else's battle with CatZ on the "Protoss ball"). Kindly ask them to explain why. You very well might be able to add to the conversation even though you are not a pro. But, don't aggressively argue with pros and scare them away from the strategy section (they are a valuable resource we need to respect -- like polar bears). | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Meanwhile he expands and masses a marine-heavy army with a few marauders and a whole division of tanks - he was at about 170 food when he decided to come get me and I was around the same. The engagement is a bit of a mixed bunch: for some reason (I still don't know why) my ultras didn't move in with my ling/bling ball - but I also caught him unsieged, so it pretty much evens out. I clean up his remaining forces and in a shockingly short time I'm parked outside his natural with my ultras and another monstrous ball of ling/baneling. Feeling giddy and out of control, like a battered wife clutching a shaky baseball bat while her husband disbelievingly fingers his broken nose, I decide to frontally assault whatever he has waiting at the top of his ramp. Turns out that was about nine sieged tanks, a full bunker and another bunch of marines - I say 'was' and 'about' because after four seconds it would have taken the kind of team who investigate commercial airline disasters to say for sure. Assuming they weren't trodden on by the ultralisks, exactly one of which had perished in the attack. Pausing only to kill all his SCVs and an unfinished command centre, I waddled them back down his ramp and surrounded them with another carpet of ling/bling, which promptly dispatched the next batch of tanks and infantry he sent out before trundling up into his main and eating it. In a game rich with moments to treasure (like watching my changeling hang out in his marine ball, just one of the lads), I think his exclamation of "FUCKING BUGS" tops the pile, closely followed by his clarification that I was a "Cheesy Zerg player". At this point, I want to stress there was a hell of a lot of room on both sides for better unit control, better macro - better everything. What counts, as far as I'm concerned, is that for the first time I felt like I didn't have to play much better in order to actually get in there and win. So, so often against Terrans I've been two or even three bases ahead, deflected everything he's sent at me with minimal losses, and still lost because I just can't go fucking kill him. I end up nervously massing larvae and resources at 200/200, hoping I can flank, fungal and finesse his army when it finally moves out and stop him taking an expansion when he does so I don't have to go through the whole ordeal again five minutes later. With this unit composition, when I hit 200/200 it's "Heeeeerres Johnny!" time. | ||
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RudrA
Canada67 Posts
Check did this vers RainBow in the GSL Code S yesterday. Banelings + Ultras. Just wanted to point something out: Zergs have been trying to go mass ultra end game, which has failed because it was "countered" by the marine. Ultras and Thors cost the same amount of resources. Mass Thors get owned by Speedlings. So what did Terrans do? They started adding Hellions to counter the Slings, and marauders against Roaches. What did the Zerg community do? They QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ Just wanted to give props to Mr.Bitters for not QQ'in and instead making Ultras work in a DEADLY way. | ||
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FrostyYeti
Canada15 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On February 25 2011 02:36 RudrA wrote:So what did Terrans do? They started adding Hellions to counter the Slings, and marauders against Roaches. What did the Zerg community do? They QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ Just wanted to give props to Mr.Bitters for not QQ'in and instead making Ultras work in a DEADLY way. Let's not be too unkind. Hellions countering lings and marauders countering roaches isnt exactly rocket science; the game practically spells it out for you. Having a combination of melee units - most of them with no bonus vs armoured - do so well against armoured splash-damaging units with massive range is pretty counter-intuitive. | ||
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CuteSmallHydra
Canada120 Posts
On February 25 2011 02:36 RudrA wrote: Just wanted to add... Check did this vers RainBow in the GSL Code S yesterday. Banelings + Ultras. Could you post a brief summary of the game here? I didn't get the chance to watch it but I'm very curious to hear about what the similarities and differences were between Check's game and the games I posted in the OP. Some things I'd be interested in knowing: - what evo chamber upgrades did he opt to get; carapace, melee or both? - did he opt to go muta/ling/bane until ultras popped or did he use infestors as in MrBitter's thread? - was his gameplan all along simply surviving until Ultras, aka a relatively fast hive tech, or did the game merely drag on a very long time that Ultra tech was simply the next step he took? - did he go broodlord first to force vikings or did he go straight to ultras? - how many ultralisks did he make? and what units did he remax with after the initial ultra/baneling attack? Thanks very much for bringing this to my attention. I'm very pleased to hear my thread ended up having somewhat of an influence on the GSL-scene. | ||
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RudrA
Canada67 Posts
He used Ultras in the end with banelings to finish off Terrans army and win the game. He was Maxed I believe on upgrades... and the hive tech was about towards the end of the game... so around 20 mins of game time. No brood lords. You can ask some1 with access to VODS for more info.... sorry all I remember. | ||
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RudrA
Canada67 Posts
On February 25 2011 04:34 Umpteen wrote: Let's not be too unkind. Hellions countering lings and marauders countering roaches isnt exactly rocket science; the game practically spells it out for you. Having a combination of melee units - most of them with no bonus vs armoured - do so well against armoured splash-damaging units with massive range is pretty counter-intuitive. Well.... I mean come on... marines killing u? Make banelings? Its not like Terrans said... hmmm Roaches keep owning Thors... F'em. I understand its not 100% similar, but really... I honestly find zergs are not necessarily trying. Like... IdrA... the guy says that games are unwinable as zerg in SOTG... I mean come on... Terrans get cheesed after a while. | ||
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hypnobean
89 Posts
A good build for the map though - Taldarim Altar is much larger than anything on the ladder though. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On February 25 2011 07:12 RudrA wrote: Well.... I mean come on... marines killing u? Make banelings? Its not like Terrans said... hmmm Roaches keep owning Thors... F'em. I understand its not 100% similar, but really... I honestly find zergs are not necessarily trying. Like... IdrA... the guy says that games are unwinable as zerg in SOTG... I mean come on... Terrans get cheesed after a while. I honestly don't think it's lack of effort. Zerg can't just wall in, pick whatever tech they like and push when they feel ready; their builds are a lot more about survival and absorbing all the weird crap that can be thrown at them. I mean, imagine playing Terran if the marine needed an armoury upgrade to shoot air, and your only early AA was turrets. Imagine trying to develop strats while not dying to void rays or mutalisks, or because you rushed to protect yourself from them and they never came. Now imagine doing that without scans. Zerg play is full of red herrings, too, which doesn't help. Broodlords ought to be the siege-breakers in ZvT, but they just aren't because of the synergy between vikings, thors and turrets - which makes it look like zerg has no answer. Then we find that despite Terran having awesome ranged ground dps, the "right" way to bust down the front door is with... a combo of melee units? Seriously? We're supposed to work that out in the time it took terrans to discover that bf hellions are good against lings? EDIT: Another game this morning, another opportunity to test this out against a 'slightly favoured' platinum terran on Xel'naga caverns. Massed speedlings and queens, made infestors (which I didn't really end up needing), teched to Hive at 11:30. Defended against banshees and maxed around the 15:00 mark with 4 Ultras. Was about to attack when he pushed out with his marine/marauder/tank to kill the gold base I was taking. Completely one-sided slaughter: my 200/200 vs his 190/200 became 170 vs 60. Sent what I had left to kill his natural and went back to macroing. Wrapped things up a few minutes later. I macroed better than usual in that game, but it still struck me just how natural and resource-friendly queen->ling->bling->infestor->ultra seemed, most of that off two bases with, again, a third taken for gas around the time the ultras pop out. I had a macro hatch which was a little late, causing a mineral spike, but the whole build felt smooth, powerful and focused. Hatches, queens, overlords and lings really soaked up the avalanche of minerals I was mining, with upgrades (late; sorry!), tech, ultras and blings accounting for the gas. I'm seriously tempted to give this a whirl against Protoss, too, just to see what happens. EDIT: Another game at lunchtime, Shakuras again. Defended a hellion drop with queen and lings, banshees with queens, Hive at around 11:30 again. His big push (tanks, a few marines and a lot of marauders) caught maybe 30 mis-rallied lings by surprise, which meant I didn't quite have enough army to crush his and keep my ultras alive. Used my six infestors to keep the remnants of his force out of my base while spawning lings, then remade six ultras, lings and banelings, ran across the map, up the ramp to his natural and squished the siege tank/thor/marine/marauder ball at the top. All ultras survived. No GG. This time I tried to get my fifth and sixth gas up a bit quicker - and I really needn't have bothered. I just couldn't spend it; I ended up floating 3000 gas when my final push started. Hardly surprising given that an infestation pit, hive, cavern, plating upgrade, four ultralisks and 24 banelings costs the same gas and food as a spire and 18 mutalisks. | ||
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boozoozoo
United States3 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
After that you just morph the remaining lings into banelings and rally a shit-ton of cracklings into him. It's a beautiful sight to behold. | ||
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Setev
Malaysia390 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
This emerged from a game where I made a few roaches to defend against hellions, after which I steered my build back on track - but I had these roaches standing around. On impulse, I grabbed their upgrades, and toddled them into battle alongside my huge ball of ultra/baneling. This time, instead of having some ultralisks left over and re-rallying lings, I found that I had my ultralisks and pretty much all my roaches. Which I could burrow and heal up in five seconds flat. And then charge into his natural and flatten that. Then I could pull back, wait for my reinforcement banelings to morph, and scour the map clean. After that, I started folding roaches into my army every time. If he shows hellions, I get a few early. If he doesn't, I drip-feed them in over the course of the game. I don't get many - 10-15 max - but they seem to make a huge difference in carrying the momentum of a fight and sealing a win. I'd be very interested to know if anyone else is doing this. | ||
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cnaphan
Canada8 Posts
I had a game yesterday where I busted through two levels of heavy, 200-supply tank-marauder fortification in Backwater Gulch with 8 Ultralisks and speedling-baneling. He even had a bunch of Vikings land to fight the Ultras because he expected Brood Lords. If I might dare to suggest a name for this end-game composition, I would say "The Poison Fist". Thanks again, OP. | ||
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FoFo
Netherlands207 Posts
Great post OP | ||
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