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On January 26 2011 03:38 windsupernova wrote:
Also, while it has been said several times already. Wouldn't it be good to add some roaches in the mix for the midgame push before Ultras?
Not commiting to roaches, just use them to tank the fire damage so that the tanks don't destroy the blings?Roaches do have a nice speed compatibility with Blings and if a terran tries to kite chances are that your roaches will get free shots.Carpace upgrades work pretty well with this.
Anyways, I feel like this is a nice thread, and lets remember that while Pros are better players than us they are still humans. They can make mistakes ,be biased or just didn't think of this. Also we should care about stuff working for us and if something like this stops working at higher levels we just have to adapt.
I am not saying that we know better than pros, but I guess I am tired of people just saying that stuff won't work because Pros aren't doing it.
terran might get a few marauder to block banelings but if you go roaches as well it might encourage the use of even more marauders which will rip your ultras apart.
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You will be weak versus late game Air however, which is a risk.
Aren't infestors with 2.50 Speed a very nice addition, also to stop kiting attempts? You'll be to short on Mutalisk to defend properly and I can think of some ways Infestors can help very, very well. Wasting Siege shots with IT from Burrow, Fungalling Marines, Adding general DPS with ITs?
What do you think about this? Only disadvantage is a lower Gas count to spend, but with 4-5 Infestor in your main army you should be perfectly set for the whole game, if you treat them well?
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Cutesmallhydra - badass first guide! Very well written and an interesting change from the "standard" play. I always enjoy seeing original strategies, and I'm looking forward to trying this one out.
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Excellent post and fantastic guide.. I only have one 1 question and I did read it twice to make sure it wasn't answered already.
Ultras will tank the damage, their large size means that tank splash won't be landing on many banelings, and thus your banelings are free to target the marines while your ultras handle the tanks.
Do the ultras actually absorb the splash from the tanks more than a smaller unit would? it sounds completely logical, but never thought about it this way.. going heavy baneling its important that the splash is mitigated and if this is the case its brilliant. what is the footprint of an ultra anyway? is it more than 1 block?
omg its my birthday in Korea!
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Sick good guide, very well explained and looking at the replays looks like a very viable strategy.
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On January 26 2011 05:07 bri9and wrote:Excellent post and fantastic guide.. I only have one 1 question and I did read it twice to make sure it wasn't answered already. Show nested quote +Ultras will tank the damage, their large size means that tank splash won't be landing on many banelings, and thus your banelings are free to target the marines while your ultras handle the tanks. Do the ultras actually absorb the splash from the tanks more than a smaller unit would? it sounds completely logical, but never thought about it this way.. going heavy baneling its important that the splash is mitigated and if this is the case its brilliant. what is the footprint of an ultra anyway? is it more than 1 block? omg its my birthday in Korea!
I remeber in the old days when the size of the units didn't matter for the splash damage, I even recall a GSL game (I think it was FruitDealer vs oGsTop on scrap station) where FD's Ultras were hitting the PF and the marines that were touching it died from the splash.
When that happened I remeber Tastosis commenting that it was a bug. I think it was fixed, and the splash now considers a certain radio centered on the core of the unit (but I might be wrong on this).
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Do the ultras actually absorb the splash from the tanks more than a smaller unit would? it sounds completely logical, but never thought about it this way.. going heavy baneling its important that the splash is mitigated and if this is the case its brilliant. what is the footprint of an ultra anyway? is it more than 1 block?
omg its my birthday in Korea!
Happy Bday!
and Yes, blizz did fix at one point in the beta where splash damage is centered. Found it from patch 11:
http://www.sc2hacks.com/starcraft-splash-damage/173/
We have changed how splash works for several units across the game to make it always hit the dead center of the target unit. Previously splash was centered on the front of the target unit. This makes splash generally more effective, though against certain large targets (buildings, Thors, Ultralisks) you will now not get any splash damage since the splash radius will be contained entirely within the radius of the large target.
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On January 26 2011 04:26 Immolate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:38 windsupernova wrote:
Also, while it has been said several times already. Wouldn't it be good to add some roaches in the mix for the midgame push before Ultras?
Not commiting to roaches, just use them to tank the fire damage so that the tanks don't destroy the blings?Roaches do have a nice speed compatibility with Blings and if a terran tries to kite chances are that your roaches will get free shots.Carpace upgrades work pretty well with this.
Anyways, I feel like this is a nice thread, and lets remember that while Pros are better players than us they are still humans. They can make mistakes ,be biased or just didn't think of this. Also we should care about stuff working for us and if something like this stops working at higher levels we just have to adapt.
I am not saying that we know better than pros, but I guess I am tired of people just saying that stuff won't work because Pros aren't doing it. terran might get a few marauder to block banelings but if you go roaches as well it might encourage the use of even more marauders which will rip your ultras apart.
And then lings and mutas will rip the T to shreds. Ling muta vs marauder tank is a slaughter.
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On January 26 2011 05:19 Onos wrote:Show nested quote +
Do the ultras actually absorb the splash from the tanks more than a smaller unit would? it sounds completely logical, but never thought about it this way.. going heavy baneling its important that the splash is mitigated and if this is the case its brilliant. what is the footprint of an ultra anyway? is it more than 1 block?
omg its my birthday in Korea!
Happy Bday! and Yes, blizz did fix at one point in the beta where splash damage is centered. Found it from patch 11: http://www.sc2hacks.com/starcraft-splash-damage/173/Show nested quote +We have changed how splash works for several units across the game to make it always hit the dead center of the target unit. Previously splash was centered on the front of the target unit. This makes splash generally more effective, though against certain large targets (buildings, Thors, Ultralisks) you will now not get any splash damage since the splash radius will be contained entirely within the radius of the large target.
Excellent, thank you.. So not only will they mitigate the damage from the tanks, they will eat it entirely! thats huge.. Now as far as priority is concerned, if the tanks are left to AI control, I assume they will also naturally target the ultras given that they are the biggest threat. Can anyone confirm?
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great guide, i will def try this in my next zvt, which is definitely my worst matchup (i play random so thats saying a lot)
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I can make ultras, destroy the T army, and then reinforce the Ultras. The big advice people would give against turtle terrans is go broodlord to force vikings and then reinforce with Ultras. Umm... Ultras have a 70 second build time. I don't know about any of you zergs, but anytime I've tried going ultra after broodlord... I died. Why? Because broodlords don't tank your damage, and allow your ling/bling army to die. After the broodlords are dead to vikings, the terran still has a rine/tank army that your ling/bling failed to kill and are able to kill off your expansions one by one as you twiddle your thumbs waiting for ultralisks to spawn.
This is like a summary of every single one of my late-game losses to Terran. I think what makes Terran so disgustingly infuriating to play against is the fact that they can pull of ridiculous early aggression and still compete in these late macro games.
If incorporating ultralisks into my army before the trade/remax phase of ZvT starts is the answer to this (as opposed to remaxing WITH ultralisks), they're my new favorite unit.
I've noticed that some people are mentioning the use of infestors, and I want to experiment with that too. I feel like infestors might help shut down the medivac harass that's causing you some trouble. Additionally, infestors are strong against bio, necessary against marine stim micro and decent against large numbers of thors because of NP (which you probably won't see, considering you didn't go heavy mutalisk). Finally, getting infestors at lair tech instead of the spire will get you hive faster.
This is theorycraft, though.
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On January 26 2011 02:07 Xeken wrote:
As for contribution to the thread, I suggest trying to use ling infestor spread all over the map to control instead of mutas. I think it's a very good alternative. I've been having good success polishing up the ling/infestor + hydra (if necessary)>ultra/bling (delay bling against mech for more ultra, get bling with ultra against bio). I've only lost when I was outplayed, and never because my build progression was weak against any specific build that T may throw out.
Being a fan of ling/infestor/hydra myself, thanks for offering up that alternative to muta/sling/bling. I've definitely had many games where I hold on with ling/infestor/hydra until I can get ultras or broods out. I kind of did it randomly without thinking too much about trying the bling/ultra combo, something this thread has definitely convinced me to try out.
Regarding ling/infestor/hydra one of its huge strengths against bio I've noticed, is its ability to just rip up medivacs hardcore. I hate it when I stop a terran bio push with sling/bling and the medivacs just fly away! Also, hydra are pretty decent at finishing off a bunch of wounded infantry as well. Its a unit composition that is really easy to screw up though I've noticed, without perfect micro, so thus far I am not very consistent with it, often times wishing I had just made speed banelings.
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When I get hive, I almost always get broodlords over ultras, especially when terran is going marine/tank, for a few reasons:
1. broodlords tank way more cost-effectively than ultras, for quite a few reasons:
- they fly, ultras don't; as a result, broodlords aren't affected by tank fire at all.
- they have range 9, ultras are melee
- every time broodlords attack, broodlings are 'spawned' instantly in melee range, which means they don't have to travel to get into melee range (unlike ultras), and also means that broodlords/broodlings draw friendly tank fire more quickly & efficiently than ultras. Notice that when you attack a staggered siege tank line with ultras, terran goes  and stims his marines and runs back, and when you attack a staggered siege tank line with broodlords, terran goes 'OH SHIT UN-SIEGE AND HAUL ASS NOW'
- broodlings are free and instant with every broodlord attack, ultras cost resources & time...A LOT of resources & time. Let me emphasize here, until terran gets vikings, broodlords are constantly reinforcing instantly and for free. I mention this because you talk about reinforcing...NO unit reinforces as efficiently as broodlords, it's not even close.
- tanks do bonus damage vs armored, ultras are armored, broodlings are not. You're actually lowering a marine/tank army's overall damage if you use broodlords over ultras.
2. ultras require upgrades to be effective, broodlords don't, however that leads to my next reason...
3. broodlords benefit from melee/carapace AND air upgrades, whereas ultras only benefit from melee/carapace upgrades. Thus, when you go muta/ling/bane mid-game, your upgrades match up, and as a result late-game broodlords actually synergize better with muta/ling/bane than ultras do.
The only drawback is that broodlords are more vulnerable to vikings, however if you are ahead in bases and don't throw away your muta ball in the mid-game, you can use your mutas to defend your broodlords.
My ideal late-game army against marine/tank is fully upgraded crackling/bane, my ball of mutas (anywhere from 15-30 mutas), and 4-6 broodlords, with level 2 air attack upgrade (once greater spire finishes, I can resume upgrading air armor as gas allows).
Now if terran starts to overproduce vikings to counter my broodlords, at that point I'll switch to ultralisks.
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I saw this exact strat in an older Day [9] video. The guy held to terran down with ling/bling and teched until ultras at which point he rolled over the terran army.
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tanks do bonus damage vs armored, ultras are armored, broodlings are not. You're actually lowering a marine/tank army's overall damage if you use broodlords over ultras
Actually, this is false. Tank damage is so high because of splash and almost nothing else. Their single target damage to armored targets in siege mode is actually less than their unsieged DPS. Ultralisks, when hit by tanks, are so large they absorb ALL splash. A tank shot hitting an ultralisk will result in 0 zergling or baneling deaths. A tank shot hitting a broodling will probably spill over onto zerglings and banelings.
ultras require upgrades to be effective, broodlords don't, however that leads to my next reason...
The downside is that broodlords are slower.
A greater spire takes 100 seconds to morph. An ultralisk cavern takes only 65 seconds. Granted, the upgrade does take 110 seconds to finish. However, if you start the upgrade once the cavern completes, that means that your first round of ultras will have the upgrade within 40 seconds after spawning.
If you add the build time of a corruptor to the time it takes to morph a broodlord, it's actually 4 seconds longer than the build time of an ultralisk (74 seconds). Something for your consideration:
Cavern+armor upgrade= 175 seconds (ultralisks are out by 135 seconds)
Greater spire+corruptor build time+morph time= 184 seconds
Ultralisks are also much less vulnerable to marines after the upgrade. A fully-upgraded ultralisk against a fully upgraded marine will only take 3 damage a shot.
broodlords benefit from melee/carapace AND air upgrades, whereas ultras only benefit from melee/carapace upgrades. Thus, when you go muta/ling/bane mid-game, your upgrades match up, and as a result late-game broodlords actually synergize better with muta/ling/bane than ultras do.
Broodlords don't synergize better, they just synergize. Ultralisks share all the same upgrades too. If you don't go mutalisk heavy, spending money on air upgrades isn't necessary, which offsets (imo) the cost of the ultralisk armor upgrade. Why spend 100/100 or more on air attack upgrades if you'll only build 8-12 mutalisks all game long?
The only drawback is that broodlords are more vulnerable to vikings, however if you are ahead in bases and don't throw away your muta ball in the mid-game, you can use your mutas to defend your broodlords.
This isn't always the case. Often, vikings are parked on top of thors next to tanks. A broodlord will take damage from vikings and if mutalisks intervene, they'll eat thor missile damage. Corruptors are a slightly better response, due to being armored and have 2 base armor. If he doesn't have any thors, then yes, you're correct... but can you really remember any times you've come up against a late-game Terran without thor support?
Personally, I think it might be better to give switching the tech a shot. Start with a couple ultralisks and then switch into broodlords to help unsiege tanks and then swarm in with a couple ultralisks to take shots while the ling/baneling cleans up. I still think the OP's use of ultralisks shows promise.
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I would have to say that I think you won because of good micro. Since your "positioning" was so good in the beginning, that caused you to be able to hold off potential game winning pushes. The terran's "positioning" was not as good. It's a good strategy(after reading the whole post i applaud you very much), and i am definitely not saying it's bad. It's just that it can be countered, then its up to micro to win. In other words, it's a good strategy made almost OP by micro.
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Now, what I'm curious about is, did the thors use 250mm strike cannon or not?
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United States7483 Posts
Even if they did Selkie, the ultras would have soaked a ton of tank damage running in first and the banelings would be detonating by the time the thors were in range to use the cannon, and it doesn't stun the ultras so they'd keep charging until dead.
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I do something like this guide says. I make tons of lings and a few banelings, maybe a few infestors. I use all my gas on upgrades and infestors while expanding. How do I expand with just ling baneling? Tons of nydus worms. Sometimes I'll throw down 2 nydus and attack 2 different spots while using creep to defend. I expand while this is happening while teching to hive. IF I don't win while nydusing (happens a lot) then when they finally attack after fending off the nydus worms i'll have a ton of ling/baneling/ultras - usually fully upgraded. Baneling/Ultra has worked amazingly well. I would watch the battle happening - and all of the sudden a group of marines would just explode. It's hard to see the banelings under like 4 ultras. It's almost like the ultras having baneling tusks or something.
I don't think you even need many banelings. I usually have like 10~ banelings with a maxed army.
I'm in platinum- should be in diamond(lag problems).
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Finally a zerg who doesn't think that Ultralisks are useless. I use ultras all the time because they tank so well and do extremelly well if you get a surround which isn't that hard. Hot key the lings, blings, and Ultras, and send them from 3 different directions. Boom, you have ultras just raping mmm.
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EPT
