EPTI believe that in the OP you meant to say + Show Spoiler +
MVP destroyed NesTea in the GSL semifinals
Excellent work again.
[G] Ultras in ZvT /w image heavy + reps - Page 3
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allecto
328 Posts
I believe that in the OP you meant to say + Show Spoiler + instead of MarineKing. Excellent work again. | ||
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CuteSmallHydra
Canada120 Posts
On January 25 2011 16:05 Orome wrote: I can agree with all that, but that changes the message of this guide from a complete strategy and a very different way of playing ZvT to mostly a statement about a new unit composition. 'Ultra baneling's great. Use it if you can.' Still a very nice find, I'll try to test it tonight, I've been very frustrated with ZvT recently. Well, the goal of the guide is "This is how you use Ultralisks in ZvT." Nothing else, really. =o I just wanted to show that Ultralisks can be used in ZvT, have perfect synergy with banelings, and are the perfect ender to the game. I wanted to set the idea of using Ultralisks as a late game goal rather than keeping the focus on massing up a critical number of mutalisks. On January 25 2011 16:18 Terranium wrote: To the OP: Broken image links. I can't agree with you when you said bling/ultra combo decimates a maxed out mech army. Unless flanked or caught unsieged, a maxed out mech army, ie tank count > 20 + supporting thors and hellions can easily wipe out a 200 supply ultra/bling combo with negligible casualty. This is especially true when you are fully upgraded in vehicle damage. I know this because I've played a ton of mech TvZ. Muta is a must for zerg's map control. If you have a low muta count, you easily give away the other half of the map to terran. In that case I'll be able to control the midfield very early with tanks and hellions and in late game I'll just build PFs at the map center and abuse mass viking to take out your expos. 2.5k master terran Are you sure images are broken? They still work fine for me. I faced mech armies twice, and both times I caught them out of position, unseiged, and on creep. The terran didn't even have time to react before everything was dead. Baneling damage is huge, and it's instant. Whether this works vrs 20+ sieged tanks with thor/hellion support, I can't say. I am willing to say that it might, as banelings are fast, and their damage instant. You just need the ultras to take the first hits and absorb the splash. Yet even still by the sound of those tank numbers I'm worried it might not, but regardless, you're under the false assumption that this is a "how to rush to Ultralisks" guide when in fact it's a "this is how you use Ultralisks" guide. If you're right, then in your case sticking with mutalisks would be the better answer. I'm just providing a good alternative for everything else. On January 25 2011 15:51 Encrypto wrote: For example, every game when you open 15 pool 14 gas you drone to 15 supply and then make 6+ zerglings. And this is every game. Why make so many zerglings at the start of the game? Those could be drones. I couldn't find the exact replay, but from what I remember you never really "drone hard", and in some ways I like this. You seem to treat zerg as if it were toss or terran. For every round of injects you make, at least 1 or 2 are drones and the rest is army. This way, you never have a timing attack that completely slaughters you. Instead of treating zerg as a reactionary race (in this regard), you macro the same as, say, a terran would. Anyway, maybe I was wrong for the mostpart, but instead of staying significantly ahead in the drone count (like most zergs attempt to do), you generally seem to stay the same or a little on the lower side, and maybe this isn't a bad thing. Maybe your build doesn't need a stronger economy than your opponent as is usually recommended? Well my analysis is somewhat vague and haphazard, but these are just my thoughts. I love your build from what I have seen so far (and btw it works really well in team games), and don't get me wrong - I am not trying to critique you, just better understand your motives. Thanks again. Ah, I see what you mean. Well for starters I do in fact feel that zerg can do without an "amazing" economy. As an example in BW you could saturate 4 bases with 30ish drones. In SC2 you need like 60 to saturate 3. This fact means your late game army is smaller - I personally like to have the smallest amount of drones I can have, but I know a good economy is necessary to sustain a good army so I'm never going to recommend zergs start cutting drones. The reason I make so many lings after my opening is because I can never be sure what the terran is doing. I don't like to think they are a waste as I get ling speed as soon as I have 100 gas and continually use the speedlings to scout the map. The reason I can get away with this is because I stop mining gas for a bit to get my lings/queens/expo out. When I'm no longer mining gas, I've got 15 drones mining minerals in my main so I can afford to not make more for a short amount of time. At least until my queens are out and my expansion is up. Again if I feel a timing marine push might come out, I might resume mining gas a bit earlier and put up a baneling nest to prepare. In general I like to make my drones when I know I'm able to. Early game there are too many risks in over-droning and not having the larva available to make overlords or units when you find you need them like right this instant. On January 25 2011 16:36 allecto wrote: I believe that in the OP you meant to say + Show Spoiler + MVP destroyed NesTea in the GSL semifinals All terrans look the same to me.  ty for the comments! And fixed in OP. | ||
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jgreen46
Canada94 Posts
Ultras are not nearly as good vs lower tier units. As soon as the terran plays MMM (and perhaps its one of the reasons we see so much MMM) the ultralisk's value because pretty worthless as upgraded bio destroys ultralisks (and just about anything else that moves). Tanks are nearly worthless vs ultralisks (their armor is too high and the tanks attack speed too low), and ultralisks are nearly worthless vs bio (dps is tooo high on single targets, very easy to stim and kite). | ||
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GuYuTe-
United States550 Posts
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Terranium
Turkmenistan144 Posts
On January 25 2011 17:02 jgreen46 wrote: ok maybe its not common knowledge but Ultralisk is the definitive counter to large amounts of tanks and Thors (though I'm sure with good Thunderstrike Canon use thors can do decent vs ultralisk). I thought people knew it, this was something we figured out in beta and early on in sc2. Fruit Dealer was known for using some ultralisks vs mech. Ultras are not nearly as good vs lower tier units. As soon as the terran plays MMM (and perhaps its one of the reasons we see so much MMM) the ultralisk's value because pretty worthless as upgraded bio destroys ultralisks (and just about anything else that moves). Tanks are nearly worthless vs ultralisks (their armor is too high and the tanks attack speed too low), and ultralisks are nearly worthless vs bio (dps is tooo high on single targets, very easy to stim and kite). rofl do you honestly know what you are talking about? Stop trying to mislead people. I'm sure you haven't tried this yourself. I know through tons of games that equal supply tanks absolutely decimate ultras if they engage sieged tanks from their maximum range. Of course if you are talking about flanking or 20 ultras vs 10 tanks or something like outnumbered ultras that would be a different story. If you still don't believe me, try this in the unit tester, 30 tanks (90 supply) vs 20 ultras (120 supply) and tell me which side wins. (Bare in mind that this is not even equal supply and the current map pool provides very few open fields) | ||
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davidlaskin
United States13 Posts
I ask because, as T, I almost always use a '4OC' mass MM build vs Zerg. I know the OP said he had a hard time with the mass Marine-ing player and adding Marauders into the mix is certainly not going to help the Z's situation. It seems to me that this might be weak to a Bio/Macro oriented Terran style on two front. First, there doesn't seem like there is too much opportunity for early harassment/pressure allowing Terran to macro up. The second, as I said before, is the battle. I just have my doubts that and ultra/bling mix is going to break a large MM ball. Of course it can, as the OP said, positioning can turn the entire battle in ZvT. A large number of marauders will take out the ultras before they get to do much at all, and mass MM running off 3 bases should have reinforcements coming out of 12-15rax so it would be tough to overwhelm. What do you guys think? Am I way off base thinking the Bioball is going to be too tough to crack? Is pure MM not something you see all that often? To the OP, are you planning on using this vT under almost all situations or is this better suited against tank/rine, mech, or other tech options. It seems to me that the framework is a really great place to come from. I feel pretty comfortable saying that the general stuggle for Z is getting to a place where you're comfortable to macro so using the usual fast muta/ling army to get you by until hive is solid zerg playstyle. My opinion, get a good sense of what T's army is as Hive is coming up, against MM or even some pure mech you'd be better off going broodlord/roach and you can do it without really missing a beat. (I know this is about Ultras, but sometimes the best way to use ultras is not using them) Random other thought: Couldn't the Ultra/bling push be further reinforced with a (relatively) large number of queens moving in with or right behind the ultras. They give you good anti-air and more importantly healing. Just four full energy queens can give your ultras up to 2000 extra HP if they can get all their transfuses off. I know they don't fit with the synergy of bling/ultra from the movement speed point of view but it seems to me like they would really help with a final push. Ultra/bling is really gas heavy and queens might be a great use of the extra mins. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
Also forcing him to go thor and lower his mobility. Ling baneling muta is good only for defense and harass, I don't see myself winning (crushing my opponent base) with it. I'm not sure rushing strait to ultras is a good idea. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On January 25 2011 12:30 mlbrandow wrote: No it's not and this is exactly the ignorant bile that he's trying to remove. I've been using a similar strategy that I got from two high level master zerg players and it's a dominating strategy that doesn't have a solid counter. (As tested many times with two other high level master league players). They weren't going to publish it because it's been working well, but now that the cat's out of the bag, it's still going to be a tough strategy to beat. Their basic strategy is very similar.... FE with speedling into baneling, at lair tech pop a handful of mutas for harass (don't suicide them), take 3rd/4th as you get hive/evo chambers, pump 3/1 ultras and many banelings. It's damn near impossible to stop, even when you know it's coming. There is a weakness in that it's a bit greedy toward the mid-game where it is susceptible to some blue-flame hellion shenanigans with poor micro, but other than that, it's just a very, very solid strategy. this sounds really interesting, however im thinking that going hive that fast off rather low tech (it seems youre relying on pure speedling/baneling to fight mid game pushes) dies to well executed 2 base marine tank with 2 factories pumping tanks (mvp vs nestea on shakuras f.e.). If you get slowpushed by a Terran that abuses Terrain to make some of his tanks untouchable by ground (like Shakuras and Blistering) there isnt much you can do without a good amount of roaches / mutas imo. i love speedling / baneling because its so cost efficient but good opponents wont allow you to erase their entire ground army with one big a-move. If you have some reps I would enjoy seeing them, maybe I'm just completely and it doesnt have that weakness  | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
.I am still worried a little about the "getting ultra" timing where i feel very weak as a zerg. As ultra cost 6 supply and takes 70 second to build, you are extremely vulnerable to any attack during those 70 secs ( as most of your supply are eggs :p ). So how do you make sure that you'll not get ROFLstomped just before your ultra are out. ( This is actualy the main reason i stopped to use ultra in ZvT :p) | ||
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BoonSolo
United Kingdom74 Posts
When I'm reading this thread I can't help but to feel that a lot of extra Queens are going to really compliment this whole strategy. Allow me to list why I think this is. 1.Right off the bat you mention a need for a lot of creep for map control and for the speed of banes and ultras well for a lot of creep extra queens are definately going to help with this. 2. One problem with a lot of queens is it maxes your supply very quickly however banelings are zergs most supply efficient unit, so many ling/bane leaves a lot of extra supply for queens. 3. Your low on muta count so having a lot of transfuses to keep your muta ball healed is going to make your harass that much more effective through out the game. 4.Your composition and fast teching is very gas heavy and so (I presume, havent seen reps yet because i'm at work) you have the spare minerals to make some extra queens. 5. Going mainly ling/bling with less muta is going to make an already larvae intensive strat even more intensive, however making queens takes no larva so getting some extra units out when your low on larva is only gonna be an advantage 6. With less muta your more vulnerable to drops, having a few queens at each base is going to help A LOT with holding off drops, targetting down the medivac quickly and then stalling the units while your army arrives. 7. Before you have the ultras queens make pretty decent tanks at taking siege shots and especially with all the carapace upgrades this MAY very situationally be helpful 8. When the ultras finally come out the queens provide really effective AA against your main air fear (banshees) and transfuse's on ultras is one of the best healing effects in the game, it is very cost efficient and makes an awesome tank so much more awesome allowing them to survive much longer and actually deal alot of dps as well. There may be more I havent though of, but this feels like a pretty strong reason to get like5 or 6 extra queens. | ||
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Muun
Brazil14 Posts
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Bellygareth
France512 Posts
I've always struggled with ultras myself and find them too big and their pathing kinda bugged, so I'm really curious to see how you manage to use them. Especially interested in maps where you don't have a lot of open space to play with (Muun mentioned scrap for instance). | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On January 25 2011 16:50 CuteSmallHydra wrote: Well, the goal of the guide is "This is how you use Ultralisks in ZvT." Nothing else, really. =o I just wanted to show that Ultralisks can be used in ZvT, have perfect synergy with banelings, and are the perfect ender to the game. I wanted to set the idea of using Ultralisks as a late game goal rather than keeping the focus on massing up a critical number of mutalisks. Ah, I misunderstood that then, sorry. | ||
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Autunno
Brazil147 Posts
I have a question for you: If the terran suspects that you are going ultras, do you think that the best counter (not to mention the obvious ones as multi drops etc etc) is a lot of marauders? They fare quite well against ultras when you have a lot of them, and they also tank baneling damage quite well. I understand the problems that a terran would have to get that many marauders late game after spotting the ultralisk den, and how risky it would be to just assume that the Z is going mass ultras (as marauders won't do very well against other compositions, other than roaches), but I want you opinion simply based on army composition for this situation. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
Good post OP. I hate banelings, and i play mech...  | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
I've wondered about this but didn't think you guys could get enough gas but looking back on this, isn't this what Fruitdealer used to do late game in his GSL1 run? Except FD shoved his blings in ovies instead... | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
I hope to see a lot more of this strategy and variations thereof in the months to come. I'd love for T to go back to being the turtling, harassing, micro/positioning race, not the current, turtling master, harassing master, offensive master, eco master, a-move to win race. Wouldn't it be great if Ts HAD to rely on drops and great harass to keep things even, and THEY were the ones cringing when you move out of your base? | ||
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