[G] Ultras in ZvT /w image heavy + reps - Page 2

On January 25 2011 13:57 CortoMontez wrote:
Although I didn't watch the replay, I noticed that in the picture on JB, the terran had atleast 8 BCs. Despite doing little damage to your ultras due to their 6 armour, how effective would your ultras have been if the terran had researched weapon refit (yamato cannon), since he could have taken out a significant number of ultras very quickly, and used the BCs to melt through any less armoured units.

On January 25 2011 14:34 Orome wrote:
I don't quite understand this. Of course you're going to do well if you can get hive and ultralisks up that early. The same would be true if you got broodlords that early. Maybe ultralisks really are the better choice and that's very interesting, but the fact that hive tech that early gives you a boost really isn't anything new. Your post was very well thought-out, but as far as I can see you failed to address by far the biggest issue with this strategy.

How do you survive in those 10 minutes before you actually get to the ultras? Yes, you said that because of the fewer mutas you can get more banelings out, but the reason why those mutas are so crucial (besides harass defense, which you mentioned) is because you can buy yourself a lot of time with them. Just watch the Shakuras game between MVP and Nestea and looks at how much Nestea slowed down MVP's push with his mutas. Imagine your strategy in that situation. MVP's push would've come a lot sooner and stronger at that.

I'm not saying this isn't viable, definitely not before I watch the replays (I can't right now), but this strategy has a big weakness for quite a long time. Teching to hive isn't that expensive in itself, but saving up for the ultra den, the ultra carapace upgrade and 5-6 ultras and waiting ages for them to actually pop is going to be extremely hard when all you have to defend is ling baneling and a couple of mutas.

What I'm taking away from this thread is that ultra/baneling's a very powerful strategy and I'll try to remember that the next time I'm in a situation where I can actually make that unit mix, but to see it as your core strategy that your strategy leads to is very premature I think.

On January 25 2011 14:34 Orome wrote:
I don't quite understand this. Of course you're going to do well if you can get hive and ultralisks up that early. The same would be true if you got broodlords that early. Maybe ultralisks really are the better choice and that's very interesting, but the fact that hive tech that early gives you a boost really isn't anything new. Your post was very well thought-out, but as far as I can see you failed to address by far the biggest issue with this strategy.

How do you survive in those 10 minutes before you actually get to the ultras? Yes, you said that because of the fewer mutas you can get more banelings out, but the reason why those mutas are so crucial (besides harass defense, which you mentioned) is because you can buy yourself a lot of time with them. Just watch the Shakuras game between MVP and Nestea and looks at how much Nestea slowed down MVP's push with his mutas. Imagine your strategy in that situation. MVP's push would've come a lot sooner and stronger at that.

I'm not saying this isn't viable, definitely not before I watch the replays (I can't right now), but this strategy has a big weakness for quite a long time. Teching to hive isn't that expensive in itself, but saving up for the ultra den, the ultra carapace upgrade and 5-6 ultras and waiting ages for them to actually pop is going to be extremely hard when all you have to defend is ling baneling and a couple of mutas.

What I'm taking away from this thread is that ultra/baneling's a very powerful strategy and I'll try to remember that the next time I'm in a situation where I can actually make that unit mix, but to see it as your core strategy that your strategy leads to is very premature I think.

On January 25 2011 14:40 mlbrandow wrote:



With scouting information and muta harass.

If he spots aggression, he can pop a speedling/bling army in 24 seconds.

Saying "oh well you didn't hve anything to defend a push that didn't exist" is pretty illogical. If there was a push, he could easily have made the units to deal with it.

Speedling/bling with mutas backstabbing will shut down almost any terran mid-game aggression.

Even though bling doesn't do good damage vs 1 marauder, it does great dmg versus any ball of units, armored or not. And 15 banelings with 20-30 speedlings and spine crawlers is going to wipe out anything that comes on your creep.


This is one of those builds (similar to a well-executed 4-gate or 2-rax bunker vs FE zerg) where the APM required to stop it is a bit higher than the APM required to execute it, and that's really why it's so good.

Also, since baneling is the most cost-effective unit in the zerg army, having a baneling-centric army with a composition that maximizes baneling splash damage is very difficult to deal with, relative to the a-move/right click-move strategy necessary to execute it.

On January 25 2011 13:08 Immolate wrote:
From the pictures it doesn't look very convincing. Weird army compositions and pure mech fighting in open areas?

On January 25 2011 13:25 Encrypto wrote:
Do most of your games actually last to that 21 minute late-game mark? This really doesn't solve a lot of the mid-game marine / siege-tank timing pushes that most people die to Terran by. However, I do enjoy the way you deal with those pushes; lots of creep and lots of speed banes with +1 or +2 carapace.

On January 25 2011 13:25 Encrypto wrote:After watching your replays, there is one thing that confuses me.... You make a lot of zerglings at the start of the game - you only make lings when you hit around 15 drones. Do you have any data / thoughts behind this? It sort of seems like a waste to invest in a ling army so early on. In one of the games, you were significantly behind in the drone count, not to mention your spire was delayed substantially. I'm just wondering what the thought process is behind this.

On January 25 2011 13:31 Deltablazy wrote:
I'm however concerned about your third lost game. You said you lost to something like 15 reactor-ed barracks, this could potential mean that your build/idea is weak to the newly popular 4OC build. Could you expand a little bit more than you did in your OP about that specific loss.

On January 25 2011 13:36 XXXSmOke wrote:
Interesting concept of the BW crackling ultra to the SC2 Ultra Bling. I think its almost mandatory that you add infestors tho. Stutter step is extremely effective vs ultra as what ends up happening is your ultras are chasing a huge ball of marines while my tanks get tons of free hits which plops your ultras.

On January 25 2011 13:43 Plexa wrote:
This is a good post, I can't comment on the validity on it since I'm not a Terran or Zerg, but it seems solid .

On January 25 2011 13:55 SpaceYeti wrote:
Curious here. Do you not use infestors at all to bridge the gap between Lair and Hive tech and help you defend against timing attacks that come before your Ultras pop? Or are they too gas heavy to fit in?

On January 25 2011 13:57 CortoMontez wrote:
Although I didn't watch the replay, I noticed that in the picture on JB, the terran had atleast 8 BCs. Despite doing little damage to your ultras due to their 6 armour, how effective would your ultras have been if the terran had researched weapon refit (yamato cannon), since he could have taken out a significant number of ultras very quickly, and used the BCs to melt through any less armoured units.

On January 25 2011 14:45 whatthefat wrote:
I too have been giving some thought to the place of ultras, and the role of unit speed in zerg army synergy: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182807

On January 25 2011 14:46 Orome wrote:
With muta harass? That's the entire point of the build as far as I can see, you get less mutas so you can afford the hive and ultras earlier. You can't really threaten much of anything with muta harass unless you've got a good number of them out.

And you can easily make the units to deal with midgame aggression? That's what ZvT's centered around at the moment and Zergs are struggling with it even if they have the bigger muta count and don't go for that early hive.

On January 25 2011 15:04 lphoenixl wrote:
Hmmm.. I've looked at some of the replays and on some of the games the ultras weren't even needed to finish off the terran army. most of the time the terran had horrible macro and you simply could have crushed his army with the ling/muta/bling force you had. (ie. you clearly outmacroed him). For example, on one game on X'el Naga Caverns vs oGs. He did a lot of damage with his initial 2rax opening but once he made his 2nd orbital, he didnt float it down to his nat for like 2-3 mins and had about 3-4 scvs/mineral patch in his main before he finally took it. Seems like a fairly viable composition for sure but surviving till ultras pop would be somewhat hard if your facing a fairly competent terran.

On January 25 2011 15:14 CuteSmallHydra wrote:
Which game is it you're referring to? If I know which replay it is I can give you a better idea of my thought process. But in general if I'm cutting drones for lings it's because I'm nervous that some sort of all-in might be coming. There were games where I scouted 3-4 rax and felt I needed the lings to survive the coming attack. In general I'm confident in my late game abilities that I'm not that worried about getting drones later instead.

On January 25 2011 15:14 CuteSmallHydra wrote:


In all 10 of the replays in the pack, not once did I opt not to get a spire. I did make a few mutas, not nearly enough to properly harass, but enough that there still existed the potential to harass. If the T sees a spire, he'll have to know that at any moment you can pop 10+ mutas when he sees you've been doing nothing but making ling/bling. It is the threat of muta harass that exists here and that regardless of how many mutalisks you have, will force the terran to spend money on turrets.

As I mentioned in my starting thread, stopping the terran mid-game push is all about positioning. You need your banelings to hit his marines. Not the smartest statement there, but that's basically what it comes down to. His tanks are there to make sure your banelings don't hit his marines. You stay on your creep, you attack him when his tanks are unseiged. You get as many muta/ling/bling as necessary to make sure that happens. I've never once gone into a game thinking "I'm gonna get my hive tech started at 14 minutes this time around." Zerg is a reactionary race. There's no build order here: just a goal to head towards.

I need to survive, and if necessary I will make more mutas than I originally wanted if it will mean I survive the next terran push. The ultralisks are something you transition to once you've gained sufficient advantage after disabling the earlier pushes. Of course, if the terran decides to turtle and NOT DO anything... then by all means tech to hive with only lings in front of your natural and third. Heck, I've done that, too, because the T's practically let me. Do watch the replays. You'll find this isn't "rush to ultras, win" but more "survive to ultras, win."

I also disagree that broodlords would also work, as they don't tank for your banelings and are easily countered by vikings. Every T worth their salt will have a reactored starport in a TvZ. Ultras are not so easily countered.