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On January 24 2011 13:38 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 13:36 rbkl wrote:
I find that if you start a practice group it usually helps. Find a few guys on ladder that are around your skill. Discuss strats, play custom games, work on specific things that you want to improve on.
Exactly. You can ladder all day every day, but the wide range of builds/skill levels of oppenants is just too random sometimes to get a specific build timing down. A practice group lets you test many different things without the result on your record. Plus the discusion aspect is so handy, being able to debate and talk about your knowlege and game theory will always help you in game when crucial decisions must be made.
This is so true lol. I've been trying the Adel's PvP no gas FE build on ladder in an alt account (which I use to mess around with zerg/terran) that was plat, but every game I try it, I seem to get blind 3 gate stargate rushed without enough stalker count to hold it. Pretty frustrating. I can hold robot/standard gateway openings but get hard countered by void ray openings. I've pretty much given up on trying the build till I can get it promoted to Diamond/Masters where people do more standard openings.
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On January 24 2011 14:07 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league. I don't see how he can help.
Anyway, watch Trump's stream. He has a good mentality where he tries to make small adjustments to counter things he loses to. Also he stays calm and doesn't rage and play on tilt.
Among other things, watch replays and learn the timings for stuff. Small clues and timing knowledge can get you a good idea of what the other guy is doing. 1: Day9 can easily get into masters league, and if he worked at it I'm pretty certain he could get pretty high up as well. 2: You're recommending someone watch trump's stream to improve... lol I dunno what he does now but back in beta he was one of those guys that just 3rax pushed every single game and clearly doesn't understand the complexities of the game at all.
you clearly haven't watched his stream recently, and it would seem your assertion that he clearly doesn't understand the game at all is flawed.
i would recommend watching trumps stream for learning purposes for 2 reasons.
1- he tries to analyze each of his games and goes out of his way to figure out how he lost.
2- he keeps rage to a minimum. very calm.
oh and he FE's like every game though =?
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I'm in Master League and I am always looking for more practice partners. If you are interested, add me and we can play a few games and critique each other. LBO.441
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at master level its all about streamlining your builds, mechanics, and multitasking. best way to practice that is to be repetitive with your builds for each map. youll get used to the timings of things and youll play a lot better.
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On January 24 2011 14:04 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league It's pretty funny that you think that :3
yeah just because his stuff isnt public doesnt mean hes not actually good or anything, and masters isnt much of an accomplishment anyway. Watching day9 will still help, you always have new things to learn or new angles to discover. Just practice and application, theres always going to be problems that your having and things your losing to, just find out what they are and work on those. Watch streams, games, day9 if you want, 12 weeks, etc.
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On January 24 2011 13:32 Captain Soban wrote:
How do you improve your playing?
I've reached the point where day9 isn't helpful at all and don't know how to improve besides just playing ladder and analyzing my replays. Wow, you must be a super progamer smurfing. What's your real id man?
I mean, if Day9 can't help you, to whom guys like Huk, qxc and the veterans on the State of the Game listen, you must be only losing to God!
Seriously: If D9 isn't helping, you aren't smart enough to take his advice.
If NOTHING else, watch his last 8-9 dailies where he explains how to analyze replays to learn where real improvement can occur!
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Focus on ways you can improve micro/macro play. If you aren't progressing then usually one of those is the culprit, especially if you spend as much time as you say you do practicing your builds etc.
I know my problem is macroing, my micro is crisp but when I get 3/4 base and have to do 4 injects + production + harass + micro I start to slip. If I wanted to get better I would mass customs with people until I found out my own ways to keep up with macroing while doing everything else.
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If you are finding Day9 not helpful then that is because you are waiting to be spoonfed the answers. He pitches his dailies at an audience lower than Masters so obviously you won't find exact help in terms of do X. However, he does talk a lot about ways to improve. Analyse replays, practice builds against weaker opponents, refine your mechanics etc etc. His podcasts on BW are actually pretty good for that.
Also, I think "improving" is a more general mentality and approach that works for a lot of things. e.g. I know from experience that the way to do well in exams (2nd out of 800 in my undergrad year :-D) is to develop a good exam / revision strategy and to practice until you can execute it flawlessly - exactly like a game of Starcraft (or Chess or Tennis or any other sport). I reckon if you looked outside of SC2 to Chess, Poker or even Tennis, there will be plenty of books out there that provides help on how to improve your play.
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On January 24 2011 18:39 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 13:32 Captain Soban wrote:
How do you improve your playing?
I've reached the point where day9 isn't helpful at all and don't know how to improve besides just playing ladder and analyzing my replays. Wow, you must be a super progamer smurfing. What's your real id man? I mean, if Day9 can't help you, to whom guys like Huk, qxc and the veterans on the State of the Game listen, you must be only losing to God! Seriously: If D9 isn't helping, you aren't smart enough to take his advice. If NOTHING else, watch his last 8-9 dailies where he explains how to analyze replays to learn where real improvement can occur!
Yeah, quite rediculous to say Day9 can't help you. Pro players actually benefit from his advice, but you don't?
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On January 24 2011 18:55 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 18:39 DaemonX wrote:On January 24 2011 13:32 Captain Soban wrote:
How do you improve your playing?
I've reached the point where day9 isn't helpful at all and don't know how to improve besides just playing ladder and analyzing my replays. Wow, you must be a super progamer smurfing. What's your real id man? I mean, if Day9 can't help you, to whom guys like Huk, qxc and the veterans on the State of the Game listen, you must be only losing to God! Seriously: If D9 isn't helping, you aren't smart enough to take his advice. If NOTHING else, watch his last 8-9 dailies where he explains how to analyze replays to learn where real improvement can occur! Yeah, quite rediculous to say Day9 can't help you. Pro players actually benefit from his advice, but you don't?
Dunno, I feel the same way, or rather to say, I feel my time is better spent either playing the game or searching up replays of better players for possible new BOs. I mean day9 has great insight into the game, his advices are always solid and you always gain something from it, but at certain point I just felt like I'd gain more by more play time.
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think of 1 strat for every MU for ladder until it starts working or you are tired of losing
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On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league.
My jaw literally dropped reading this.
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Look, the thing is that strategies are usually very map dependant. So start download 1-3 replays from one pro player on one specific map. Look at what he is doing, what does he see to make the decisions that he makes. Then replicate and you have yourself a good strategy to continue with, and you have improved.
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Think of something cool, try it on ladder because my timings are tight. If it works, thumbs up, discover new timings, put a black mark against it if it doesn't work.
You get to a stage where you can't lose to people who are worse than you even if you don't do something that's entirely ideal...
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On January 24 2011 18:39 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 13:32 Captain Soban wrote:
How do you improve your playing?
I've reached the point where day9 isn't helpful at all and don't know how to improve besides just playing ladder and analyzing my replays. Wow, you must be a super progamer smurfing. What's your real id man? I mean, if Day9 can't help you, to whom guys like Huk, qxc and the veterans on the State of the Game listen, you must be only losing to God! Seriously: If D9 isn't helping, you aren't smart enough to take his advice. If NOTHING else, watch his last 8-9 dailies where he explains how to analyze replays to learn where real improvement can occur!
Sorry, but Day9's target audience is not really aimed towards the higher end of the spectrum.
Granted, while there may be some important lessons to be learned from a FEW episodes as well as refreshers on old concepts that may be forgotten or undervalued, what Day9 preaches isn't that helpful to most of the Master's league.
As for players like HuK and the people of SOTG promoting Day9, what reason is there to not promote it? While I do say that Day9's daily videos are not the most helpful to the higher end of the spectrum, the majority of the SC2 players are not within this high divide. They have nothing to gain by bad mouthing perhaps one of the most well known figure of SC2 of all time so far.
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Watch pro replays from the camera perspective of your race, trying to get into the head of the player, noting the timings and such. That always helps me. And just play a ton.
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Not in master yet (2200 Diamond).
I worked myself here from the bottom of bronze.
For me, the key was to keep playing and changing my way to play when it didn't work. I did a lot of cheese, a lot or micro, macro.
Seriously, I don't take too much advices, I practice build when they seem fun or adapted to my style.
Don't care about my opponent whinning about cheese when I cheese or about something Being OP or not, I just play the way I want too.
I think that copying pros strats and builds is good, but not necessary. Just play as you wish and get more and more experience of the game by yourself.
I play a lot, I'm not very strong but I kinda have a lot of experience of the game. My rank progress very slowly but I think I understand about everything that happens to me in the game this way.
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Day9 taught me how to review replays effectively. Which is about the best skill you should have to become a better gamer as he would say.
I tune in every once in a while since he is very up to speed on new build orders and timing attacks, but I think I learn more by reviewing my own replays and finding ways to improve. At masters level the players can typically dissect the replay on their own to come to (for the most part) the same conclusions as he does. So I don't think he's the best source to become better at that level. Instead, download top players replays and analyze them yourself. You SHOULD be able to learn from them and filter out matchups that are giving you trouble instead of hoping he dives into a matchup you are interested in.
I also tune in to featured streams to steal ideas from the best of them as they play live. I was watching cruncher and huk play yesterday and they gave me a few ideas that I'm interested in exploring.
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IMO Day9 has started to become more and more abstract and broad in his advice, like general direction, having goals in your builds, how to analyze replays, etc. So it's good for players still learning the fundamentals, but for the majority of masters players (and I agree w/ others saying masters doesn't mean much) it's much more about refinement and getting your build orders as tight as possible, micro, multitasking, etc. that will give you the biggest improvements. That's why practice partners is the best way to go, so you can specifically work on the weak points you've analyzed in your game/replays.
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EPT
