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How do you improve your playing?
I've reached the point where day9 isn't helpful at all and don't know how to improve besides just playing ladder and analyzing my replays. Lately, I've been downloading replay packs from qxc, as I play Terran, and watching specific match ups on specific maps trying to focus in on how to win in every situation.
Do any of you know any video or text series that focuses on improvement for master level players?
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I also do play with a handful of practice partners to work out the kinks in my builds. I spend a lot of time on the actual timing of my builds figuring things out like exactly how long I have to attack with a upgraded marine/ghost army before a Protoss can react with a colossus after my composition is sufficiently scouted.
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I find that if you start a practice group it usually helps. Find a few guys on ladder that are around your skill. Discuss strats, play custom games, work on specific things that you want to improve on.
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On January 24 2011 13:36 rbkl wrote:
I find that if you start a practice group it usually helps. Find a few guys on ladder that are around your skill. Discuss strats, play custom games, work on specific things that you want to improve on.
Exactly.
You can ladder all day every day, but the wide range of builds/skill levels of oppenants is just too random sometimes to get a specific build timing down. A practice group lets you test many different things without the result on your record. Plus the discusion aspect is so handy, being able to debate and talk about your knowlege and game theory will always help you in game when crucial decisions must be made.
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Yup, even if you don't have friends to play with, you can easily find a group through chat channels now.
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Sometimes it just takes a while. I only could get to masters right away because of my prior experience in Brood War, in which I sucked for a very long time before being able to even compete in iCCuP. Noticed small improvements over each seasons, even though I kind of "knew" what to do, it was simply repeated practice that got the results, with a little bit of discussion here and there (quite important).
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I was unaware that there is a point where day9 is no longer helpful. He is still great to watch if you are a masters player, you're probably not going to find much better to be honest,
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If you want to get good. Don't focus too much on perfect build execution or when to do "a certain opening for maximum advantage". Its only really useful for timing attacks and if you're good, to get the last percentage to win.
It is also the part of the game that is easiest to improve.
Try playing a ladder game and being intentionally sloppy. it actually won't make that much of a difference in itself.
Better follow Day9's advice and "make a game plan" and revise that game plan. Another thing: Peoples macro tend to falter quite abit when reaching 2+ base play.
The reason for having practice partners is for consistently testing out certain 'game plans' (Not nessesarily openings). And popentially to Plug big holes.
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Play many games every day. If you don't know why you lost watch the replay and figure it out.
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day9 probably can't even get into master league. I don't see how he can help.
Anyway, watch Trump's stream. He has a good mentality where he tries to make small adjustments to counter things he loses to. Also he stays calm and doesn't rage and play on tilt.
Among other things, watch replays and learn the timings for stuff. Small clues and timing knowledge can get you a good idea of what the other guy is doing.
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On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league
It's pretty funny that you think that :3
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experiment with your builds, be able to make substitutions and adapt.
find gamers around your skill level and keep playing.
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On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league. I don't see how he can help.
Yeah, a previous WCG BW champ would probably have a pretty difficult time making it into the gimped "top tier" of SC2. Makes perfect sense.
On topic: when you understand what you're doing right and wrong, a crash course in mechanics can make a large difference as well. Near-perfect injecting, spending CB energy, calling Mules, augmenting your facility with control groups, practicing "efficient APM", etc. This is in addition to consistent practice and self-analysis of course.
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On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league. I don't see how he can help.
Anyway, watch Trump's stream. He has a good mentality where he tries to make small adjustments to counter things he loses to. Also he stays calm and doesn't rage and play on tilt.
Among other things, watch replays and learn the timings for stuff. Small clues and timing knowledge can get you a good idea of what the other guy is doing.
1: Day9 can easily get into masters league, and if he worked at it I'm pretty certain he could get pretty high up as well.
2: You're recommending someone watch trump's stream to improve... lol
I dunno what he does now but back in beta he was one of those guys that just 3rax pushed every single game and clearly doesn't understand the complexities of the game at all.
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Get a lesson from a pro, they can point you in the right direction. If you really want to seriously be good, 80 bucks for a 2 hour lesson is pretty good, imo.
Watch some of mrbitter's 12 weeks with the pros vods to see what I mean.
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1. Study the pro games and copy their strats.
2. Watch your own replays and pick out mistakes (e.g. didn't build a worker, supply-blocked, too much money, etc). In other words, work on your mechanics.
3. Figure out your own style and come up with a gameplan. For instance, if you're a defensive player, come up with a plan to accommodate this.
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On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league. I don't see how he can help.
No of course he couldn't. No 2 times WCG Brood War winner and 2 times runner up would have a chance of getting into master league...
I hope you can see the sarcasm here :D
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On January 24 2011 14:42 cronican wrote:
Get a lesson from a pro, they can point you in the right direction. If you really want to seriously be good, 80 bucks for a 2 hour lesson is pretty good, imo.
Watch some of mrbitter's 12 weeks with the pros vods to see what I mean.
imo - find someone in masters willing to for free
paying for sessions can only get you so far, the rest is up to you.
if you dont believe me listen to their success stories, you always hear about someone going from bronze to plat. they can teach you the right concepts, but only you can improve you game play and speed.
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Zurich15325 Posts
Post a replay of a typical game where you were not sure how you could have played better with a little analysis of how the game went. I am sure there is tons of stuff you can still improve.
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On January 24 2011 15:06 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 14:42 cronican wrote:
Get a lesson from a pro, they can point you in the right direction. If you really want to seriously be good, 80 bucks for a 2 hour lesson is pretty good, imo.
Watch some of mrbitter's 12 weeks with the pros vods to see what I mean. imo - find someone in masters willing to for free paying for sessions can only get you so far, the rest is up to you. if you dont believe me listen to their success stories, you always hear about someone going from bronze to plat. they can teach you the right concepts, but only you can improve you game play and speed.
True, only he can make himself improve, but he has created a thread asking how to improve, targeted specifically at master level players. I think spending the 80 bucks to spend time with people that are some of the very best at sc2 would be worth it at his level of skill. If only for a one time lesson to be pointed in the right direction.
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I'll play with you a few games if you want, around 3k in the master league atm. Play T with a strong Z offrace as it used to be my main race. Actually was better at Z relatively than I am with T now, I just wanted to try out T macro style for a week or so and the love of not getting overly cheesed made me stick with them.
EDIT: I'm assuming you're already Diamond at least, fairly up there.
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On January 24 2011 13:38 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 13:36 rbkl wrote:
I find that if you start a practice group it usually helps. Find a few guys on ladder that are around your skill. Discuss strats, play custom games, work on specific things that you want to improve on.
Exactly. You can ladder all day every day, but the wide range of builds/skill levels of oppenants is just too random sometimes to get a specific build timing down. A practice group lets you test many different things without the result on your record. Plus the discusion aspect is so handy, being able to debate and talk about your knowlege and game theory will always help you in game when crucial decisions must be made.
This is so true lol. I've been trying the Adel's PvP no gas FE build on ladder in an alt account (which I use to mess around with zerg/terran) that was plat, but every game I try it, I seem to get blind 3 gate stargate rushed without enough stalker count to hold it. Pretty frustrating. I can hold robot/standard gateway openings but get hard countered by void ray openings. I've pretty much given up on trying the build till I can get it promoted to Diamond/Masters where people do more standard openings.
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On January 24 2011 14:07 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league. I don't see how he can help.
Anyway, watch Trump's stream. He has a good mentality where he tries to make small adjustments to counter things he loses to. Also he stays calm and doesn't rage and play on tilt.
Among other things, watch replays and learn the timings for stuff. Small clues and timing knowledge can get you a good idea of what the other guy is doing. 1: Day9 can easily get into masters league, and if he worked at it I'm pretty certain he could get pretty high up as well. 2: You're recommending someone watch trump's stream to improve... lol I dunno what he does now but back in beta he was one of those guys that just 3rax pushed every single game and clearly doesn't understand the complexities of the game at all.
you clearly haven't watched his stream recently, and it would seem your assertion that he clearly doesn't understand the game at all is flawed.
i would recommend watching trumps stream for learning purposes for 2 reasons.
1- he tries to analyze each of his games and goes out of his way to figure out how he lost.
2- he keeps rage to a minimum. very calm.
oh and he FE's like every game though =?
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I'm in Master League and I am always looking for more practice partners. If you are interested, add me and we can play a few games and critique each other. LBO.441
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at master level its all about streamlining your builds, mechanics, and multitasking. best way to practice that is to be repetitive with your builds for each map. youll get used to the timings of things and youll play a lot better.
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On January 24 2011 14:04 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league It's pretty funny that you think that :3
yeah just because his stuff isnt public doesnt mean hes not actually good or anything, and masters isnt much of an accomplishment anyway. Watching day9 will still help, you always have new things to learn or new angles to discover. Just practice and application, theres always going to be problems that your having and things your losing to, just find out what they are and work on those. Watch streams, games, day9 if you want, 12 weeks, etc.
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On January 24 2011 13:32 Captain Soban wrote:
How do you improve your playing?
I've reached the point where day9 isn't helpful at all and don't know how to improve besides just playing ladder and analyzing my replays. Wow, you must be a super progamer smurfing. What's your real id man?
I mean, if Day9 can't help you, to whom guys like Huk, qxc and the veterans on the State of the Game listen, you must be only losing to God!
Seriously: If D9 isn't helping, you aren't smart enough to take his advice.
If NOTHING else, watch his last 8-9 dailies where he explains how to analyze replays to learn where real improvement can occur!
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Focus on ways you can improve micro/macro play. If you aren't progressing then usually one of those is the culprit, especially if you spend as much time as you say you do practicing your builds etc.
I know my problem is macroing, my micro is crisp but when I get 3/4 base and have to do 4 injects + production + harass + micro I start to slip. If I wanted to get better I would mass customs with people until I found out my own ways to keep up with macroing while doing everything else.
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If you are finding Day9 not helpful then that is because you are waiting to be spoonfed the answers. He pitches his dailies at an audience lower than Masters so obviously you won't find exact help in terms of do X. However, he does talk a lot about ways to improve. Analyse replays, practice builds against weaker opponents, refine your mechanics etc etc. His podcasts on BW are actually pretty good for that.
Also, I think "improving" is a more general mentality and approach that works for a lot of things. e.g. I know from experience that the way to do well in exams (2nd out of 800 in my undergrad year :-D) is to develop a good exam / revision strategy and to practice until you can execute it flawlessly - exactly like a game of Starcraft (or Chess or Tennis or any other sport). I reckon if you looked outside of SC2 to Chess, Poker or even Tennis, there will be plenty of books out there that provides help on how to improve your play.
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On January 24 2011 18:39 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 13:32 Captain Soban wrote:
How do you improve your playing?
I've reached the point where day9 isn't helpful at all and don't know how to improve besides just playing ladder and analyzing my replays. Wow, you must be a super progamer smurfing. What's your real id man? I mean, if Day9 can't help you, to whom guys like Huk, qxc and the veterans on the State of the Game listen, you must be only losing to God! Seriously: If D9 isn't helping, you aren't smart enough to take his advice. If NOTHING else, watch his last 8-9 dailies where he explains how to analyze replays to learn where real improvement can occur!
Yeah, quite rediculous to say Day9 can't help you. Pro players actually benefit from his advice, but you don't?
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On January 24 2011 18:55 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 18:39 DaemonX wrote:On January 24 2011 13:32 Captain Soban wrote:
How do you improve your playing?
I've reached the point where day9 isn't helpful at all and don't know how to improve besides just playing ladder and analyzing my replays. Wow, you must be a super progamer smurfing. What's your real id man? I mean, if Day9 can't help you, to whom guys like Huk, qxc and the veterans on the State of the Game listen, you must be only losing to God! Seriously: If D9 isn't helping, you aren't smart enough to take his advice. If NOTHING else, watch his last 8-9 dailies where he explains how to analyze replays to learn where real improvement can occur! Yeah, quite rediculous to say Day9 can't help you. Pro players actually benefit from his advice, but you don't?
Dunno, I feel the same way, or rather to say, I feel my time is better spent either playing the game or searching up replays of better players for possible new BOs. I mean day9 has great insight into the game, his advices are always solid and you always gain something from it, but at certain point I just felt like I'd gain more by more play time.
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think of 1 strat for every MU for ladder until it starts working or you are tired of losing
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On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league.
My jaw literally dropped reading this.
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Look, the thing is that strategies are usually very map dependant. So start download 1-3 replays from one pro player on one specific map. Look at what he is doing, what does he see to make the decisions that he makes. Then replicate and you have yourself a good strategy to continue with, and you have improved.
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Think of something cool, try it on ladder because my timings are tight. If it works, thumbs up, discover new timings, put a black mark against it if it doesn't work.
You get to a stage where you can't lose to people who are worse than you even if you don't do something that's entirely ideal...
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On January 24 2011 18:39 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 13:32 Captain Soban wrote:
How do you improve your playing?
I've reached the point where day9 isn't helpful at all and don't know how to improve besides just playing ladder and analyzing my replays. Wow, you must be a super progamer smurfing. What's your real id man? I mean, if Day9 can't help you, to whom guys like Huk, qxc and the veterans on the State of the Game listen, you must be only losing to God! Seriously: If D9 isn't helping, you aren't smart enough to take his advice. If NOTHING else, watch his last 8-9 dailies where he explains how to analyze replays to learn where real improvement can occur!
Sorry, but Day9's target audience is not really aimed towards the higher end of the spectrum.
Granted, while there may be some important lessons to be learned from a FEW episodes as well as refreshers on old concepts that may be forgotten or undervalued, what Day9 preaches isn't that helpful to most of the Master's league.
As for players like HuK and the people of SOTG promoting Day9, what reason is there to not promote it? While I do say that Day9's daily videos are not the most helpful to the higher end of the spectrum, the majority of the SC2 players are not within this high divide. They have nothing to gain by bad mouthing perhaps one of the most well known figure of SC2 of all time so far.
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Watch pro replays from the camera perspective of your race, trying to get into the head of the player, noting the timings and such. That always helps me. And just play a ton.
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Not in master yet (2200 Diamond).
I worked myself here from the bottom of bronze.
For me, the key was to keep playing and changing my way to play when it didn't work. I did a lot of cheese, a lot or micro, macro.
Seriously, I don't take too much advices, I practice build when they seem fun or adapted to my style.
Don't care about my opponent whinning about cheese when I cheese or about something Being OP or not, I just play the way I want too.
I think that copying pros strats and builds is good, but not necessary. Just play as you wish and get more and more experience of the game by yourself.
I play a lot, I'm not very strong but I kinda have a lot of experience of the game. My rank progress very slowly but I think I understand about everything that happens to me in the game this way.
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Day9 taught me how to review replays effectively. Which is about the best skill you should have to become a better gamer as he would say.
I tune in every once in a while since he is very up to speed on new build orders and timing attacks, but I think I learn more by reviewing my own replays and finding ways to improve. At masters level the players can typically dissect the replay on their own to come to (for the most part) the same conclusions as he does. So I don't think he's the best source to become better at that level. Instead, download top players replays and analyze them yourself. You SHOULD be able to learn from them and filter out matchups that are giving you trouble instead of hoping he dives into a matchup you are interested in.
I also tune in to featured streams to steal ideas from the best of them as they play live. I was watching cruncher and huk play yesterday and they gave me a few ideas that I'm interested in exploring.
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IMO Day9 has started to become more and more abstract and broad in his advice, like general direction, having goals in your builds, how to analyze replays, etc. So it's good for players still learning the fundamentals, but for the majority of masters players (and I agree w/ others saying masters doesn't mean much) it's much more about refinement and getting your build orders as tight as possible, micro, multitasking, etc. that will give you the biggest improvements. That's why practice partners is the best way to go, so you can specifically work on the weak points you've analyzed in your game/replays.
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Always know your 5 next moves. It is when you always know what to do next that you will become godlike. It is about knowledge and experience that comes many games. Always play the same sort of build and then you will get down the timings.
"When I do that should do that, or if he does not then he most likely is doing that other thing I have not scouted"
That is what makes you a great player. When you always know what to do your APM will skyrocket. Trust me I have been there 
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How about just watching the GSL? I've observed a bunch of master level games and I see guys trying the mimic the latest strategies that they saw on the GSL. But despite being in master league, their execution is still way off from pro-level. So you can probably still learn a lot, strategy-wise, or at least draw inspiration from watching major tournament matches. As for mechanics, that just comes from practice.
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United States2095 Posts
You watch your own replays alot. You watch other players replays alot. You talk about the game with friends. You theory craft and figure out which build orders are stronger. You listen to shoutcasts and try and THINK about whether they are right or wrong. You play 100000 ladder games, and 1000 custom games. You discuss every single 1000 custom games with whoever you were playing with. You rage quit and hate life for a bit, but come back with new ideas. At least thats what I do ^_^
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On January 25 2011 01:36 Skyro wrote:
IMO Day9 has started to become more and more abstract and broad in his advice, like general direction, having goals in your builds, how to analyze replays, etc. So it's good for players still learning the fundamentals, but for the majority of masters players (and I agree w/ others saying masters doesn't mean much) it's much more about refinement and getting your build orders as tight as possible, micro, multitasking, etc. that will give you the biggest improvements. That's why practice partners is the best way to go, so you can specifically work on the weak points you've analyzed in your game/replays.
Really agree with this. And as far as the Day 9 getting into Masters thing, well even he admits that he doesn't actually play much these days, mostly just watches and comments games due to sheer lack of time. In my opinion, it's starting to show in his analysis. You can only understand the game so much by watching it. At some point you have to play it, a lot.
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Wow you guys sound pretty silly about Day9. The guy plays hundreds of games most weeks, as random, as well as team games. He has been watching, competing in and commentating on pro level tournaments for nearly ten years, and has an amazing game knowledge of SC2. And yes, he is in Master's league, on more than one account, on more than one region. You're talking about a multiple-time WCG winner and finalist; the guy is a league of gamer that noone posting in this thread thus far can really hope to compare themselves to. Just because he's humble as all heck you mopes don't know who you're talking about.
Anyway, about the dailies being useful? I think you got it backwards. His stuff about generalised ideas such as game-plans are not for lower levels, they are only really change things for you in the upper echelons of play.
Low diamond players need to work on their mechanics and macro more than anything else to improve. But if you're a diamond or master trying to bust into the gosu level, an idea like a game-plan will help you to do that.
If you really don't find his advice helpful, good for you, but show some respect and if nothing else - watch his series on learning to analyse your replays for critical breakpoints. That's how can always get better.
Since people are expressing opinions about a SC2 community figure, I'll add mine - the guy has enough talent and game knowledge that he could be Code-A inside of a month if he started trying. And if you knew anything about Sean Plott, gamer, you'd know that him choosing not to try and win tournaments has only one motivation - to spend his energies promoting e-sports and Starcraft, a role that very few people can do much about.
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I just started recently with Starcraft II, it's my first competetive RTS aswell.
You can guess I was pretty much clueless the first few weeks, I was so desperate to learn about the game that i even bought the bradygames strategy book (what a laugh).
I basicly started as a bronze and i'm climbing all the way to mid gold. What I did was simple,
Learn a TPZvX build and keep playing with that same build like you are getting paid for it. As of now I've got a whole selection of builds and transitions vs any race rooted in my memory.
I thought my BO's were pretty good but now I needed to work on my macro game, went from 2 rax pressure to a straight out macro expand build over and over and over again. Even if I lost x number of games in a row due to be focused on macro intensive builds I would still nail them down every single game just to train it.
Think you can pretty much narrow it down to dedication and the will to get better and better.
Just remind yourself if for example Jinro or SjoW or ret can develop themselves to a top tier player you can do that aswell. It's all about priorities and deciding how far you are willing to take this.
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I hate when you reach that plateau. Before master's league, I felt like I reach that plateau and couldn't improve even though I was still losing in diamond. the problem as you rise in masters is that the skill difference between you and pros is getting closer. In high levels of play, tiny things can be game changing or game deciding. Also, Day9 is actually in masters. I think he has an account where he doesn't release the name to not attract attention.
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On January 24 2011 16:26 gr8ape wrote:
Play alot.
What? Its true
No, it's not. Or 3000 bronze players wouldn't exist.
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Write down a list of the things you want to be not only good at, but EXCEPTIONAL at.
Practice the mechanics of them (for e.g. 3-4 pronged drops) until it's second nature to you.
Then theorycraft for ideas on how to stay ahead of the game (for e.g. MarineKing microing rines against banelings. Is there something similar yet to be pro-microed out?)
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play standard Iamke style. Just pick one build that relies on your skill and thats safe against anything if you play well. You want to get really in depth with your build, till your at 3 bases at least. Write down everything your opponent threw at you and at what time. Your scouting a few marauders and marines, is he rushing and hiding a part of his army or is he expanding? From watching the rep i know that at 7:20 he must have his CC down else he is rushing (pvt this is), stuff like that. Open up a map custom game. If you start your +1 att upgrade. When do you start you lair/council/armory? Bisu once mentioned that you really want to get waves of output( collosus, upgrades units) you want have your eggs pop all at once, your upgrades to finish all at once. so if you start a +1 att upgrade when do you start your second ebay/forge/evo. This way your at your strongest just when a wave finishes, which will lead to good timing attacks. For example you scout hes expanding greedy or is overdroning, you wait untill your wave finishes and attack with an awesome timing > gg :D .
srry for wall of text lol
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I'd like to start with saying that Day9 isn't god. Just because he say something does not make it an universial truth and I am sure that a lot of the progamers know the game better and is better then him. That said, a lot of what he say and do is true and is important. Also just because other progamers are better and know the game better does not mean that Day9 can not help them and give them hints and advise, there will always, always be things you can learn from other people regardless of wheter they are better. (alright I don't see a bronze help a master but I think you get the point).
I'd also like to state that I love Day9 and have watched every episode (post SC2 that is) nad it is mostly thanks to him I'm now in masters. And I'm sure that I will still be able to learn more from him, and I'm sure that OP can learn alot more if he just tries. (Also remember that he is a real gamer so what is "don't play to much anymore" is very relative)
Lastly with that rant away. My tips to improve your own game is to train only 1 or 2 builds at a time, and atleast 10-20 games before you try something new. And make sure you stick to it, analyse your replays and see what you can improve within the build. (note that I'm a quick learner so for some maybe 30-40 games are better) Also use rebind hotkeys to better buttons. Like that damn immortal A is a much better hotkey then I in my mind.
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Don't feel bad about not listening to day9 anymore. I'm 23, I own a house with my wife, I don't have time to both follow this game seriously, and play it seriously, so I chose the latter. I don't watch replays, gsl, streams (Except for huk. Some reason I like his stream since I heard some pac on it) No offense at all meant to day9, I just never found the time.
What I do, at 2900pt master with only like 550 or so solo games and just as many practice games (Much less than people around my area) is just play. I turn my theorycraft strategies out into real, fleshed out strategies against people at a higher level. I always play prac partners who are 2.8-3k masters level with my BS strategies.
The best thing I can suggest is to improve on your ability to be annoying. As a terran player, harass! Learn to dual/tri prong hit at the same time. 8 Marine drop two bases as you push another. Through practice games, learn to know timings, and how to abuse certain timing windows and never be afraid to go all in if you see an opening to win. It it, after all, a byproduct of good scouting and game knowledge to end a game before the enemy gets any advantage.
Part two -- scout! Once you learn timings, you can learn when to drop/scan an enemy due to army composition through harassment.
Part three -- it's not all about micro. I'm mid level masters and my micro is about shit. My macro? On point. My positioning? Most times epiclly good, other times, tragically bad. The key is to learn to read players reactions to your strategies, and plan accordingly. Never be afraid to expand.
I've got reps and reps to show me getting run over in TvZ by a 3.1k friend of mine as I secure my 3rd and 4th at the same time -- He abuses a timing of me being weak and runs me over. But, it goes both ways. If he delays, I got 2 more PF's up, with a skyrocketing macro going on.
It's easy to be a gsl/replay/etc analyzer and assume you know the game through someone elses hands and eyes, but it's different to play and do what you see people do.
In short -- learn to harass better. The more annoying you are, and the better you simcity + macro as you harass, the more luck you'll have in ladder without having to completely overhaul your gaming. Know how I beat people I should get walked over by? Aggression. I'm overly aggressive and will lose games because of it. But, I will also force people into paths I want them into, and through harass and macro, you can at least set yourself up for a nice even game.
If you scout things well, you'll be much better apt to deal with what you see. At a certain point, example, in TvP when you haven't seen any toss units for a while early game, and you're questioning what's coming -- scan the area between the ramp and nat. You'll see army comp at ramp or if they expoed.
Final rant of oddness -- use hellions. Seperately control them in every battle, run past or to another base and hit workers. If you do decently and trade, 2-4 hellions roasting workers is just a plain smack in the face. Losing 4 hellions for 12 workers is always good in my book (which is probably wrong)
BLUE FLAMES ARE YOUR FRIEND! ROAST WORKERS!
Ohh oohhh - edit! I can't say work on only one build, since I go into every single game with no preset build in mind (usually too high...) so I just wing it every game. If you have decent mechanics, and a solid 1-1-1 game you can alter and adjust to every situation and still be able to FE. Personal opinion. I'll 1-1-1 or 2-1-1, or 2-2-1, or 2-1-2 etc. Get that tech up to harass easier!
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The biggest thing that helped me was playing zerg, (i'm a protoss player) switching to zerg for a few days increased my APM and my micro macro skills. Watching streams, and getting coached are also viable options :O GL
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I just drill different builds. Pick a build, do it over and over and don't stop until you get it down no matter what your opponent does.
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1st: Day9 will always be helpful. I am at 3000 master and his mouse control daily helped me tremendously. Not everything is helpful but he is a goose that lays golden one-liners. In one of his q&a sessions he said something like, "I almost think it's ok just to copy a build until you get to high diamond (before masters was in place).
2st: Copy builds. Look at recent tournament replays and copy the builds blindly. When you hit a strategy that stumps you and isn't addressed in your initial replays you can download more replays to see how people deal with it. ONLY copy builds from the top 50 players in the world. + Show Spoiler +(Your preference as ladder rankings aren't always helpful. For example Greg is only ranked 260 in the world but he is far better than his ladder ranking.
3st: Play for a macro game. Once you can play a macro game you only need to work up your cheese defense and you're set. You also need to revisit 2st note and make sure you have long term build orders. You cannot get better at long games if you are always 4 gating (minus PvP.)
4st: Only use standard unit compositions: Revisiting 2, don't play funky strategies like hydra infestor or carriers. You may see it used once or twice but there is a reason you don't see it mainstream. Let the pros be the creative ones as you(us noobs) still need to learn the game and its mechanics first.
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day9 - was A- on bw iccup, total baller, would rape every single person's face who said he can't make masters
not equal to
husky/HD starcraft - 2v2v2v2 bgh!!! , 1v1 LT noobs!
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You know, the thing about Day9 is, he has gone through the process of learning and mastering SC:BW, so he knows how to GROW as a player. Everyone starts out with limited experience and knowledge, and the professionals are the ones who figure out how to expand their own understanding of the game.
So simply taking Day9's tips, strategies, tricks and advice or anyone else's can only get you so far, you will be a good imitation of a real player...the real precious material that Day9 is trying to impart is how to think about Starcraft (and life :D) and learn to learn it for yourself.
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If you think analysis of your own replays aren't too sufficient for the growth you're looking for, I suggest you go to Korea and try joining the GSL.
You make it sound like you've reached God Tier and improving yourself with bettering your gameplay isn't sufficient -_-
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On February 27 2011 05:17 tskarzyn wrote:
day9 - was A- on bw iccup, total baller, would rape every single person's face who said he can't make masters
not equal to
husky/HD starcraft - 2v2v2v2 bgh!!! , 1v1 LT noobs!
Day9 was A+ on multiple accounts, he has also won several major tournaments.
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day9 probably can't even get into master league. I don't see how he can help.
^ Hes top master league player and won few BW tournaments, and BW was harder then SC2 tbh.
To answer your question, there are 3 things you can chose from to improve:
- watch streams on Korea ladders, 90% of the new tactic come from Korea
-dw/watch pro matches and spend few h a week watching them
-Or do as i do, practice yourself, get about 2.3k matches in ladders and figure out what tactics you like and what playstyle + watch few pro match to get a hold of the "top" tactics.
^ This if you wanna reach mid master.
Thats my option at least.
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pretty sure you can still learn a ton from day9 even in masters lol... I am and do
the only way to improve something with this many different aspects is to pick 2 or 3 things per game day and try and improve them by a bit, you cant focus on improving 20 things at once, so pick a few and try and think about them more, thats all
also, even the few dailys that I cant learn much from (ie tvp or something) I watch for the humor, Sean is a very solid comic in his own way and I consider his web show the best piece of "tv" I watch every week, im sure a lot of people watch just for the lols
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I think it comes down to your fundamentals to be honest: macro, micro, and MULTITASKING! All three are molded through practice which is why practicing a lot is so important.
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I have some StC's POV vods from Xelp's stream that I downloaded before they are taken down. I improve my play a lot from watching him. Of course these vods will be old in 2 weeks 1 month since the game is changing so much, but the basic macro, micro management from him is still awesome. Watching pro's POV make you feel the urge of micmic him.
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On January 25 2011 03:42 Sheth wrote:
You watch your own replays alot. You watch other players replays alot. You talk about the game with friends. You theory craft and figure out which build orders are stronger. You listen to shoutcasts and try and THINK about whether they are right or wrong. You play 100000 ladder games, and 1000 custom games. You discuss every single 1000 custom games with whoever you were playing with. You rage quit and hate life for a bit, but come back with new ideas. At least thats what I do ^_^
Quite honestly, that's as true as it gets. This is living the game :D.
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On January 24 2011 13:36 rbkl wrote:
I find that if you start a practice group it usually helps. Find a few guys on ladder that are around your skill. Discuss strats, play custom games, work on specific things that you want to improve on.
Any practice groups avalible for me to join? I've perused the prac partner thread numerous times, but its hard to find partners that always want to play / hard to find them 1 by 1. I'm ~3500, pm me if anyone wants to prac sometime?
on topic: Practice a lot, watch replays and focus on the mechanics of your play (always larvae injecting / muling / chronoboost, always making workers, etc.)
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On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league. I don't see how he can help.
Anyway, watch Trump's stream. He has a good mentality where he tries to make small adjustments to counter things he loses to. Also he stays calm and doesn't rage and play on tilt.
Among other things, watch replays and learn the timings for stuff. Small clues and timing knowledge can get you a good idea of what the other guy is doing.
I guess top 200 isn't enough to get into masters anymore =(
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 25 2011 17:28 DaemonX wrote:
Wow you guys sound pretty silly about Day9. The guy plays hundreds of games most weeks, as random, as well as team games. He has been watching, competing in and commentating on pro level tournaments for nearly ten years, and has an amazing game knowledge of SC2. And yes, he is in Master's league, on more than one account, on more than one region. You're talking about a multiple-time WCG winner and finalist; the guy is a league of gamer that noone posting in this thread thus far can really hope to compare themselves to. Just because he's humble as all heck you mopes don't know who you're talking about.
Anyway, about the dailies being useful? I think you got it backwards. His stuff about generalised ideas such as game-plans are not for lower levels, they are only really change things for you in the upper echelons of play.
Low diamond players need to work on their mechanics and macro more than anything else to improve. But if you're a diamond or master trying to bust into the gosu level, an idea like a game-plan will help you to do that.
If you really don't find his advice helpful, good for you, but show some respect and if nothing else - watch his series on learning to analyse your replays for critical breakpoints. That's how can always get better.
Agree with all of this, although I don't really know much about his play schedule.
I used to watch and hope for something that was black and white in his dailies. Oh, if I just go MMM I can beat this or if I add hellions that'll help some. At this point in my play, sure it's cool if he does something like that cause it's just one more idea to add in. Except I've got practice partners and people that I play who I can work out builds and unit comps with as well as online strats.
I feel that it's just as much the little things he brings up in his dailies as it is the big overarching view. That while I don't brood over them like I do the important ideas it's what seeps into my mind when I play. I realize why a player would do this or that, and wow this is what he was talking about. The generalizations as well, a gold player won't be able to take nearly as much of an advantage of aiming for 4 factories in the mid game as a diamond or master league player. He also most likely won't fully understand why either.
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The way I try to improve is to analyze my weaknesses. The best way to do this imo is to watch replays of games you have lost. Then, as you watch the replay, you should be able to tell at the exact moment you basically lost (before you actually lost). You need to then think to yourself, what led to this point where you lost. Was it a single mistake, or was it a bunch of failed or missed opportunities. In most games, things are really even and it comes down to who makes more mistakes. Then the next time you play a game with a similar situation, you need to remember what you saw in past games that cost you the game and not make that mistake again.
I am only a 2900+ masters, so this is just my opinion. I feel like I have improved my game a lot by not making mistakes that I used to make just by watching my replays.
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Watch replays and games so you see how the high level players do everything. And then the next time you watch one of your replay's you'll be able to recognize what you did wrong and what you could have done better. Also, I feel that a master level player such as yourself would benefit the most from even one practice with a pro-gamer. Sometimes people plateau because they don't actually know all of the mistakes or ways to improve until a higher level player points it out. If you don't have money, you can watch pros giving lessons, or just watch their stream in general.
And like people have already said, practice. Find a group of people to play with, and approach the games in a different way. Don't play 100% to win, change the balance to playing to learn and improve, and less about winning.
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I am masters player with 60% winrate and Day9 is the best place to progress. Still learning from Sean and learning a lot 
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On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league. I don't see how he can help.
Anyway, watch Trump's stream. He has a good mentality where he tries to make small adjustments to counter things he loses to. Also he stays calm and doesn't rage and play on tilt.
Among other things, watch replays and learn the timings for stuff. Small clues and timing knowledge can get you a good idea of what the other guy is doing.
I have never laughed so hard at anything on this site
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On January 24 2011 14:02 vnlegend wrote:
day9 probably can't even get into master league. I don't see how he can help.
Anyway, watch Trump's stream. He has a good mentality where he tries to make small adjustments to counter things he loses to. Also he stays calm and doesn't rage and play on tilt.
Among other things, watch replays and learn the timings for stuff. Small clues and timing knowledge can get you a good idea of what the other guy is doing.
Uhh . . . Day9 has a much much better understanding of the game than Trump and is much better at the game . . . being you know . . . three time WCG finalist for BW and a high level random master league player (I wonder how he got into that one) .
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I would strongly recommend Adebisi Starcraft - I feel that he is much more measured and intelligent than any other Terran streamer that I have watched. Even if you are reasonably high in masters I think that when listening to other high level Terrans you can often pick up little gems of information or new insights that you would not have been exposed to if you simply continued to approach Terran from just your own experience / perspective.
Check out Adebisi's TL channel here
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Figure out what you are doing wrong and stop doing it.
To be more specific:
I'm still working on keeping all my hatches injected all of the time.
I still work on keeping the map scouted and his base scouted at the correct times
Using keybinds with my army more effectively/actually using keybinds for my army/when I do keybind, always add new units to the group
Generally increasing my useful apm.
And I suppose the most important thing of all is to consistently watch pro players to keep up with the current metagame/strategies (because I'd rather spend 20 minutes watching how a pro reacts to a certain unit composition, then me losing to it in a ladder game, raging, watching the replay then learning how to counter it)
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EPT
