ZvZ is the bane of my existence, help welcomed - Page 2

Twaxter

Canada190 Posts

January 23 2011 03:52 GMT

#21

Go 11 Over pool, 18 extractor + queen + ling + Roach Waren, get xel naga with lings, force other play to make lings, burst out 3 roaches, and block any speedling/baneling crap. from their on either drone up or react to see if he pushes, go lair get double gas, get +1 get speed and an over seer and push or expand yourself. This works 90% of the time, the other 10% is when you let speedlings runby, which can be easily stopped, block your ramp..., and your reinforcements should be able to kill alot of speedlings, and your areadly won, cause he wasted all that larva.

If you see a 15 hatch, your best off expanding yourself, hopefully the man will waste larva on lings.
If you see no roaches, get +1 attack range and attack his natural.

This works for me at mid high 2700ish masters.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THIS MATCHUP is fienting attacks, so move out of your base then move back in so you can distract the other player to make units or static while you make drones. The more he does this the more your ahead.

Kinch2

United States2 Posts

January 23 2011 17:42 GMT

#22

On January 23 2011 11:36 ChaosTriggeR wrote:
If you're gonna check out the mrbitter machine vod you might as well watch zvz with Ret as well. Its a better way to fast expand than the way machine suggests imo and can be used in more situations.

I found the MrBitter VOD but where can I find this ret video?

KawasakiJ

South Africa58 Posts

January 23 2011 22:25 GMT

#23

I watched yr 1st replay, you not bad. Yr macro was good.
You held opp off well...I tht even with yr mistakes you were gonna win, the loss shocked me.
If you just waited until you had a few more hydras....

3 cudnt change tide much

Day9 advice above is good...having watched a gazillion replays of pros...it seems the safest build is
few lings, roach, roach attack upgrade then burrow move (not burrow).....hydra, infestor

Fuhrmaaj

167 Posts

January 27 2011 03:26 GMT

#24

I agree with Twaxter, I've been using the 11 overpool build and I only lose in the late game in ZvZ. It's great because when your opponent scouts, they will think you've done a 10 pool and the proper response to the 10 pool is to 14 pool roach. If they do that, then you will expand first and be ahead.

If your opponent does a 10 pool, you'll be able to hold with lings/queen/spinecrawler while you're waiting for your roaches to hatch. The key advantage is that you have a queen and they have a low unit count so you'll be able to hold.

If your opponent does the 14 pool roach all-in that Treemonkeys was talking about, then you'll have an expansion and your roaches should hatch just in time to defend. I don't know how to add replays to my response, but I have one I played recently where I held off that exact attack and I made a million mistakes. You have more larvae and economy than your opponent so the longer you hold, the better shape you're in. Bring queens to fight in early battles.

If your opponent does an expand first, you should be able to beat them by doing a speedling all-in. You might not even need to expand. The 11 overpool build is very strong economically and you have more larvae than the other openings so you should be in good shape. I'm not sure though because I've never played a game where the zerg expanded first and then pressured me.

Remember that you can wall of most ramps with two roaches and a queen. Make sure you have a ling to scout when they move out and you should be fine.

charlie420247

United States692 Posts

January 27 2011 05:01 GMT

#25

the only two strats ive seen in high diamond level are mass roach and mass zergling with the OCCASIONAL ling bane style play.

my favorite build is just to open with speedlings and expand. if you see him doing the same you can add bane. if you see him going roach forget the nest and just mass tons and tons of lings.

if he comes out at a normal timing and you attack the roaches in the open, ie not in your mineral line or on a ramp or between a buch of buildings you should be able to stomp his army. (try hitting the roaches when there in a line, as opposed to being in a balll so that each roach can get surrounded.)

if he waits befor pushing out the lings are gonna be very much less effective. so in this case your gonna need to get roaches of your own and continue to scout. the unit counters in zvz are some of the roughest most unforgiving counters in the game. \

dont feel bad about being lost in zvz it is a very troublesom and complex matchup that has been evolving for some time now. just be diligent and watch some reps.

if there was one key word i could convey to you that i think has helped my zvz the most.

macro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO NOT MISS INJECTS (they WILL cost you the game)

Quagmire

Ireland50 Posts

January 27 2011 05:23 GMT

#26

Just practice 15 gas 15 pool and defending any early lings with your drones get queen as soon as pool is down. as soon as queen is done get liar and 2nd gas. make sure u see wats coming out his ramp(build 2 lings early and try to get them into his base to see for banes or roaches, if banes u need roaches) if its 6 pool or 8 pool u might need to get a spine crawler up and few ling. Its all about not losing many drones to this and you will be ahead. From that point its up to u wat u want to do. If he hasnt got his liar up go burrow speed roaches and anytime a roach is close to the red burrow him. Deny his scouting and use overseers to keep scouting him. By seeing his army you know wat to build and when to drone. Something ive been playing with is putting up a spire, if he scouts it, alot of the time they put down 6 spores and quickly techs to hydra, if he doesnt spot it get a bit of defence and go muta pwn him. Wat will happen is he has built lots of roaches and will run to ur base as soon as he sees muta in his. so do dmg and get back in time, if ur defences are good its pretty much gg from there

Whale

United States18 Posts

January 27 2011 05:34 GMT

#27

On January 24 2011 02:42 Kinch2 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I found the MrBitter VOD but where can I find this ret video?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=177791

Chinesewonder

Canada354 Posts

January 27 2011 06:00 GMT

#28

Machine said in another one of MrBitters videos that his builds are kind of "outdated" and he is looking to incorporate one of Day9's 1 base roach into lair builds. Look up day9's 235 daily episode, its a great build and Im thinking of using it as a standard on maps where FE is risky. On maps like lost temp and metalopolis FE and go into roach play and watch for mutas. also with day9's build you dont have to worry about learning baneling/ling play which is great so you dont have to master as much

Ghad

Norway2551 Posts

March 08 2011 12:59 GMT

#29

Thought I would give a little feedback here, after some time, hopefully I'm forgiven for bumping:

I am actually doing a bit better zvz now. My present main gameplan is going 11 pool, then pump 4 roaches ASAP to combat any ling pressure and then block my ramp. After that I go lair tech of one base and aim for getting an advantage so i can secure an expansion early in the midgame.

I haven't perfected anything yet to be sure, but at least i seem to have gotten rid of my tragic mindset i had going into zvz. I think one big change is that at least now I have one thing prepared up to 25 supply that I am using pretty much every game, this increases the quality of practise by a lot.

Thanks for your kind input everybody who wrote here and the guy who sent me a crazy long pm!

EvilZergling

United States194 Posts

March 08 2011 15:57 GMT

#30

I'm pretty good at my ZvZ but keep in mind I am only a 3300 Diamond ranked player.

My opening goes as follows:

-15 hatch
-15 pool
-16 gas
-17 overlord
-@Pool 100% done, drop roach warren immediately before queen
-6 Zerglings for defense and/or scouting
-Queen
-Overlord
-4-6 Roaches depending on how aggressive your opponent is being
(cont'd: If you notice OP is being really zergling heavy I like to drop a banelings nest and keep 4-6 banes near my roaches and 2 on ramp to make sure those lings do absolutely nothing.)
-Drone up but keep making 2 roaches at a time to ensure you can hold off pressure

From here you go wherever you want.
I like to get 1 evo chamber and start +attack until I have +2 attk then get armor. If I notice I can easily afford the 1 evo chamber I get 2 evo's for double upgrades on atk and armor.
Upgrade to lair as soon as possible because you want roach speed as soon as you can get it which you will use for harassment as well as denying a natural expansion if they are 1 basing or to deny a 3rd. Keep the 4-6 banelings you made at home for a zergling counter while you are away from your base.
Continue to deny his expansions while you take a 3rd. Get a hydra den and the rest should be fairly simple.

That's normally what has been winning games for me lately. Make sure you constantly scout as well, not only with attacking units but also with overlords. Position overlords around his bases so that if something tricky comes out like mutalisks... the muta attack the overlords while you have time to spore up. Since you already have your evo chamber(s) up for upgrades you can easily get 2-3 spores per base which completely denies the muta doing anything useful then you make a few hydra if you haven't already, push out and win.

Deadeight

United Kingdom1629 Posts

March 08 2011 18:14 GMT

#31

I hate ZvZ, and I too have the problem where I'm getting ZvZ about 50% of games. I have no idea why, it's not like everyone is playing zerg. Wish I'd had this many vZ matchups back when I was a protoss.

In my experience, to actually play it well you have to be at such a high level to scout correctly and know the responses. It's basically throwing shit at each other hoping you might get an edge somehow, and then if that doesnt work one person tries to go muta. Half the time they'll die before mutas are out, the other half they'll get mutas and that's the game won.

In terms of openings, in general I've also found:

Speedling > Roach
Roach > Baneling
Baneling > Speedling

a.k.a.

Scissor > Paper
Paper > Rock
Rock > Scissor

What a shit matchup.

I know the speedling>roach seems a bit weird but most speedling openings can bum rush a roach opening before it gets going, and if you catch roaches in open field you can get a really good surround on them and they just drop.

But yeah if you can scout well I think it becomes a lot less rock/paper/scissor. But I'm not there yet.

EDIT: I wish that you could queue for different matchups, and have a different ranking for each. In the same way you have a ladder for each 2v2 team you are on, you would have a seperate ladder and matchmaking for your ZvT, ZvP, ZvZ and your ZvAnyone.

Lingy

England201 Posts

March 08 2011 18:19 GMT

#32

If you arent diamond, mechanics are the way that you will see the greatest improvements in mirrors

Coolguy

68 Posts

March 08 2011 18:35 GMT

#33

Day9 made a newbie tuesday about zvz if you want to watch it. Easy and simple, even if you find the skill level's below you, you can definitely take something away from this
Here's the link:
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4650275/

defteH

United Kingdom134 Posts

March 08 2011 18:45 GMT

#34

Gold/Nearly Plat here; ZvZ is my best matchup. Unless I don't scout early and I get 6/7/8/9/10 Pooled I just assume that they're going speedlings and then plan transition from there. More often than not you'll hit Bling/Roach tech and the game plays out from there in my experience.

You need to pressure early, if you can stop them expanding, snipe drones/his first queen and force them to do what you want them to do (Which by using speedlings is either make banelings or roaches) you can plan ahead and control the game.

Also punish a 15 hatching zerg as much as possible, if you can harass his expo or even kill it while expanding yourself you should have no trouble mopping up his inferior force, just make sure you don't let his economy kick in or you'll be wayyyy behind.

I tend to 14gas, 14pool, Speed, Queen then make Lings til 22 and expand behind unless you've got his back against the wall in which case just macro up and spam him with lings til he taps out.

Just my 2 cents, prolly a lot of mistakes people will pick up on but hey

mothergoose729

United States666 Posts

March 08 2011 20:13 GMT

#35

If your opponent goes 15 hatch on a close positions map go for a banneling all in and win 95% of the time

if you opponent does a early pool, go 14 pool, take no gas, and save three larva for right when your pool finishes to make six zerglings.

Otherwise a 14gas/14 pool, make 4 lings, pressure and poke to get a feel they are doing, expand and go roach from there. ZvZ is hard mostly because there are so many effective cheases, but once you make it to 11 minutes ok the game is pretty straightforward from there. He who has the most roach/hydras wins.

Schnullerbacke13

Germany1199 Posts

March 08 2011 21:10 GMT

#36

a simple strat with good win rate: 11 (over)pool, speed, banenest (even try bane before speed, will surprise many opponents). after queen and 15 drones, just pump lings, get +1 in case he is going roach, do not macro or drone up, if minerals stack up => 2cnd hatch. If you got lotso lings, morph some banes and attack with lings, go with banes for eco. Ensure your mass lings get not scouted. Most Zerg start teching and macroing, so they are simply killed by a timing push. If they go fast muta => instant attack, they will have no defense :-) + queen+spores

EvilZergling

United States194 Posts

March 08 2011 21:15 GMT

#37

On close positions it can be a bit tougher but with proper micro you can still pull off my build with fast roaches doing a 15 hatch 15 pool. The key is to use the roaches to kill the banes and block the choke to start. Given proper scouting you notice he is ling heavy or if you are lucky you spot a baneling or banelings nest in which case you make one of your own and send 2 banelings at a time toward his incoming baneling group. 2 Banelings will kill an infinite number of banelings that are bunched.

I've won many times doing this.

Schnullerbacke13

Germany1199 Posts

March 08 2011 21:22 GMT

#38

i don't get it how you get away with 15h14p. I always crush them with agression, roaches are too late to defend fast ling/fast bane rushes .. it requires very good micro to defend a 15h15p against this.

shabinka

United States469 Posts

March 08 2011 21:41 GMT

#39

Double hatch speedling builds are effective. You can pump out enough lings to make banes ineffective.

Ksyper

Bulgaria665 Posts

March 08 2011 21:43 GMT

#40

I got tired of trying to go roach so now I just go for a speedling expand build, the hard part about the speedling expand build is knowing when to stop attacking and start droning and when to transition into roaches or banelings.
But it's great practice for micro so I enjoy it, and I have a fairly good win rate since many people are greedy.

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