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Twaxter
Canada190 Posts
If you see a 15 hatch, your best off expanding yourself, hopefully the man will waste larva on lings. If you see no roaches, get +1 attack range and attack his natural. This works for me at mid high 2700ish masters. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THIS MATCHUP is fienting attacks, so move out of your base then move back in so you can distract the other player to make units or static while you make drones. The more he does this the more your ahead. | ||
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Kinch2
United States2 Posts
On January 23 2011 11:36 ChaosTriggeR wrote: If you're gonna check out the mrbitter machine vod you might as well watch zvz with Ret as well. Its a better way to fast expand than the way machine suggests imo and can be used in more situations. I found the MrBitter VOD but where can I find this ret video? | ||
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KawasakiJ
South Africa58 Posts
You held opp off well...I tht even with yr mistakes you were gonna win, the loss shocked me. If you just waited until you had a few more hydras....  3 cudnt change tide muchDay9 advice above is good...having watched a gazillion replays of pros...it seems the safest build is few lings, roach, roach attack upgrade then burrow move (not burrow).....hydra, infestor | ||
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Fuhrmaaj
167 Posts
If your opponent does a 10 pool, you'll be able to hold with lings/queen/spinecrawler while you're waiting for your roaches to hatch. The key advantage is that you have a queen and they have a low unit count so you'll be able to hold. If your opponent does the 14 pool roach all-in that Treemonkeys was talking about, then you'll have an expansion and your roaches should hatch just in time to defend. I don't know how to add replays to my response, but I have one I played recently where I held off that exact attack and I made a million mistakes. You have more larvae and economy than your opponent so the longer you hold, the better shape you're in. Bring queens to fight in early battles. If your opponent does an expand first, you should be able to beat them by doing a speedling all-in. You might not even need to expand. The 11 overpool build is very strong economically and you have more larvae than the other openings so you should be in good shape. I'm not sure though because I've never played a game where the zerg expanded first and then pressured me. Remember that you can wall of most ramps with two roaches and a queen. Make sure you have a ling to scout when they move out and you should be fine. | ||
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
my favorite build is just to open with speedlings and expand. if you see him doing the same you can add bane. if you see him going roach forget the nest and just mass tons and tons of lings. if he comes out at a normal timing and you attack the roaches in the open, ie not in your mineral line or on a ramp or between a buch of buildings you should be able to stomp his army. (try hitting the roaches when there in a line, as opposed to being in a balll so that each roach can get surrounded.) if he waits befor pushing out the lings are gonna be very much less effective. so in this case your gonna need to get roaches of your own and continue to scout. the unit counters in zvz are some of the roughest most unforgiving counters in the game. \ dont feel bad about being lost in zvz it is a very troublesom and complex matchup that has been evolving for some time now. just be diligent and watch some reps. if there was one key word i could convey to you that i think has helped my zvz the most. macro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO NOT MISS INJECTS (they WILL cost you the game) | ||
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Quagmire
Ireland50 Posts
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Whale
United States18 Posts
On January 24 2011 02:42 Kinch2 wrote: I found the MrBitter VOD but where can I find this ret video? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=177791 | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
I am actually doing a bit better zvz now. My present main gameplan is going 11 pool, then pump 4 roaches ASAP to combat any ling pressure and then block my ramp. After that I go lair tech of one base and aim for getting an advantage so i can secure an expansion early in the midgame. I haven't perfected anything yet to be sure, but at least i seem to have gotten rid of my tragic mindset i had going into zvz. I think one big change is that at least now I have one thing prepared up to 25 supply that I am using pretty much every game, this increases the quality of practise by a lot. Thanks for your kind input everybody who wrote here and the guy who sent me a crazy long pm! | ||
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EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
My opening goes as follows: -15 hatch -15 pool -16 gas -17 overlord -@Pool 100% done, drop roach warren immediately before queen -6 Zerglings for defense and/or scouting -Queen -Overlord -4-6 Roaches depending on how aggressive your opponent is being (cont'd: If you notice OP is being really zergling heavy I like to drop a banelings nest and keep 4-6 banes near my roaches and 2 on ramp to make sure those lings do absolutely nothing.) -Drone up but keep making 2 roaches at a time to ensure you can hold off pressure From here you go wherever you want. I like to get 1 evo chamber and start +attack until I have +2 attk then get armor. If I notice I can easily afford the 1 evo chamber I get 2 evo's for double upgrades on atk and armor. Upgrade to lair as soon as possible because you want roach speed as soon as you can get it which you will use for harassment as well as denying a natural expansion if they are 1 basing or to deny a 3rd. Keep the 4-6 banelings you made at home for a zergling counter while you are away from your base. Continue to deny his expansions while you take a 3rd. Get a hydra den and the rest should be fairly simple. That's normally what has been winning games for me lately. Make sure you constantly scout as well, not only with attacking units but also with overlords. Position overlords around his bases so that if something tricky comes out like mutalisks... the muta attack the overlords while you have time to spore up. Since you already have your evo chamber(s) up for upgrades you can easily get 2-3 spores per base which completely denies the muta doing anything useful then you make a few hydra if you haven't already, push out and win. | ||
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Deadeight
United Kingdom1629 Posts
In my experience, to actually play it well you have to be at such a high level to scout correctly and know the responses. It's basically throwing shit at each other hoping you might get an edge somehow, and then if that doesnt work one person tries to go muta. Half the time they'll die before mutas are out, the other half they'll get mutas and that's the game won. In terms of openings, in general I've also found: Speedling > Roach Roach > Baneling Baneling > Speedling a.k.a. Scissor > Paper Paper > Rock Rock > Scissor What a shit matchup. I know the speedling>roach seems a bit weird but most speedling openings can bum rush a roach opening before it gets going, and if you catch roaches in open field you can get a really good surround on them and they just drop. But yeah if you can scout well I think it becomes a lot less rock/paper/scissor. But I'm not there yet. EDIT: I wish that you could queue for different matchups, and have a different ranking for each. In the same way you have a ladder for each 2v2 team you are on, you would have a seperate ladder and matchmaking for your ZvT, ZvP, ZvZ and your ZvAnyone. | ||
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Lingy
England201 Posts
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Coolguy
68 Posts
Here's the link: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4650275/ | ||
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defteH
United Kingdom134 Posts
You need to pressure early, if you can stop them expanding, snipe drones/his first queen and force them to do what you want them to do (Which by using speedlings is either make banelings or roaches) you can plan ahead and control the game. Also punish a 15 hatching zerg as much as possible, if you can harass his expo or even kill it while expanding yourself you should have no trouble mopping up his inferior force, just make sure you don't let his economy kick in or you'll be wayyyy behind. I tend to 14gas, 14pool, Speed, Queen then make Lings til 22 and expand behind unless you've got his back against the wall in which case just macro up and spam him with lings til he taps out. Just my 2 cents, prolly a lot of mistakes people will pick up on but hey  | ||
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
if you opponent does a early pool, go 14 pool, take no gas, and save three larva for right when your pool finishes to make six zerglings. Otherwise a 14gas/14 pool, make 4 lings, pressure and poke to get a feel they are doing, expand and go roach from there. ZvZ is hard mostly because there are so many effective cheases, but once you make it to 11 minutes ok the game is pretty straightforward from there. He who has the most roach/hydras wins. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
I've won many times doing this. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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shabinka
United States469 Posts
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
But it's great practice for micro so I enjoy it, and I have a fairly good win rate since many people are greedy. | ||
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