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On January 20 2011 10:46 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 10:35 CecilSunkure wrote:To those saying that walling in the ramp vs Zerg is mandatory, go and check out some of Day9's recent dailies on Whitera's PvZ. He pretty clearly has a reason for not walling in, and in the Reddit VOD Day9 says that putting buildings near your Nexus instead of your ramp makes for defending against 6 and 7 pools easier --> http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4648068/I recommend walling off one side of your minerals with a couple pylons and a gateway//cyber in all matchups. On Jungle Basin you can wall off a side of your vespene geysers with just two pylons and a gateway, and I believe you can on most of the spawns on Delta Quadrant as well. This cuts off mobility within your base, which is a good thing. Someone above said to never do this vs Terran, but you really don't need mobility within your main as you aren't dropping units and needed to run in circles around your Nexus -the Terran needs to do this. It helps HIM defend 6 and 7 pools. This is not necessarily true for everyone (it certainly isn't true for me.) Second, he actually does wall anyway later, though it's a 2-base wall. If you're 1-basing and you don't wall, you HAVE to make sentries. If you do wall, you can tech faster because you don't have to spend gas so early on sentries. Also, although I like Day9 and most of his analysis, some of the things he said in that game are kinda strange. He has some weird biases, like his bias against forge builds.
Biases aren't necessarily bad, it's the reasons behind him having his bias that may or may not be bad. I'm sure that his biases are for the most part very valuable ones to have, as he's a very talented player.
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Except in this case, it stifles variations in play. It's the same wall Idra smacks into all the time. He might be a great player, but just dismissing forge builds because you don't like them is a pretty big deal. All of the major PvZ builds in BW, for example, were forge expands. They still work in SC2, and pro players have used them just as well as gateway expand builds.
But yeah, Day9 in that case didn't really have good reasoning for being against forge expand builds. I understand that there's the sentiment that you'll have units as opposed to static d, but that's a very one-dimensional way to look at it. Anyway, I digress: this topic is about walling.
Whitera has a unique take on walling in PvZ, but I think it's a more personal preference thing than anything else. Obviously if you don't wall in PvZ you need to get more sentries, and for a lot of tech builds it makes walling off superior to not walling off because of the huge gas investment in a unit that is weak in a straight up fight.
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I never wall in versus T because when you wall in you, obviously, create a choke at your ramp that fewer units can occupy at once. Now, normally this is a good thing, but with Terran, it can be frustrating. With scans, Terran can can vision of the high ground and harass your gate/core/pylon (depending on your wall) and the choke that normally helps you, keeps you from positioning stalkers in a good position to fend this off. I've lost games before, or at least gotten significantly behind, just because of this.
just for lols: I had one T go for a fast ghost and nuke on Jungle Basin. I FFed the ramp once and was about to FF it again when I heard "nuclear launch detected." I could have either backed off, letting him up my ramp and surely destroying my pylon, gate, and core or rush down the ramp and try to take out the ghost. I did the latter but suffered heavy losses do to his marauders and marines. I ended up losing 
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I always wall off against Zerg only at the ramp except on Steppes of War...Steppes of War I think I'm going to start walling off at the mineral line just b/c I'm starting to see Zergs open up with 6 pool on that map to gain map control and blocking your ramp with cannons is trapping the Protoss from executing their builds properly to play Steppes against Zerg IMO.
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Wall vs zerg to prevent a zergling runby
Dont wall vs terran because you can;t get a good arc vs their ranged units.
Depends what build you're going PvP, and maybe what build they're going
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PvZ: ramp wall (lings)
PvT: wall pathway behind your mineral line (hellions)
PvP: wall one side of your mineral lines (proxy zealots)
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PvZ - I don't wall anymore, I prefer to make my first pylon unsurroundable with my minerals/gas/gate. I find it to be much better against any type of early pool play because you've got all your shit in 1 screen and your zealots are popping out right next to your probes. If I scout that he's doing some sort of heavy speedling play, I'll choke my ramp with 2nd and 3rd gate later.
PvP - Similar thing as above except I won't be as strict with my first few building placements.
PvT - On a map like Metalopolis, where hellions can get up your ramp and dash straight for the minerals, I'll make a wall from my nexus to the opposite side of the minerals, so force hellions to go all the way around. Sometimes that can screw you over though, in the case where he drops hellions from another angle and your probes are sorta trapped inside the wall.
I probably have more examples somewhere in my brain but I'll leave it at that.
Conclusion, every intermediate or above player should think about building placement at the start of every match. Do it!
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I tend to get a wall around my main nexus regardless of the matchup, but PvZ is the only time i will wall my ramp. In PvT the buildings close to your ramp are just fodder for tanks so i dont even bother.
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I was playing a team 3v3 as rando and was protoss with 2 terran teammates and I did a protoss wall @ ramp for shits and giggles, you know how it is.
Didn't have any units, was going 4-gate (also for shits and giggles) triple 6 come our way and protoss wall paves the way for the win.
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I've seen Protoss wall off only against Zerg. Against Terran..I don't think it is all that necessary IMO.
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Well placed buildings around your nexi and mineral lines is critical for hindering the movement of hellions.
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Today I got my first taste of 6pool, guy just spammed lings at me all night long.
now i go forge first vs. zerg is that acceptable?
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While in general it's a bad idea to wall in PvP, placing your first pylon at the top of your ramp to start a wall is actually great defense against cannon rushes (so in other words good idea on metal and xel naga). Not only will doing so give you vision of things happening right below your ramp and spot any probe that may sneak into your base, completing your wall in the event of him cannoning under your main will stop him from progressing into your base.
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PvZ = wall off
PvT = don't bother
PvP = I put sort of wall off, not as tight as against Zerg, it's just so I can see if any probes sneaked in my base/helps defend.
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EPT
