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On January 18 2011 02:11 mr_tolkien wrote:
Been trying it in custom, I just absolutely RAPE anybody who is below master with.
This build is REALLY safe as far as I can see, I really never had a BO loss, and i usually get BLs + mass transfuse by 12:00, with 3 bases, it's so scary oO Not to mention complete maphack with 100+ creep tumours.
This. Is. So. Awesome. Updating OP with the BO, I'll begin to use it on the ladder tomorrow.
EDIT : Done 2 ladders with it, 2-0 atm, and they both said «wp» :p
Exactly. This is starting to look like less and less like theorycrafting to me.
From my play, something as minimal as just having 2-3 queens in your amy is a huge difference.
Like, it optimizes early game defense, strengthens your army immensely, allows for amazing amounts of map control and macro.
The only real downside is you need at least adequate micro. Between transfusion, spreading creep, perfecting all of the injects, and managing your mutas and roaches alongside your queens, lower levels of APM might not be able to get all of it perfectly.
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My APM has been close to 200 when playing this build.
It REALLY is awesome. Very micro intensive, but I've just beaten a Blink Rush with it : 8 Roaches + 1 Spine + 4 healing/tanking queens > 20 Stalkers it seems :D
I'm so happy I opened this thread lol, it motivated me to develop a Queen centric build, and it works...
BLs + Queens is just too awesome. Best anti ground for its cost, the BL, gas heavy, + best anti air for its cost, the queen, min heavy. Add transfuse into this, and Roaches to fix the opposing army, and you probably got the best 200/200 army in the game...
And thanks to the Z building style, I just made a 220/200 army (yep, 20 evo chambers are "just" 1500 min and you get 75% back anyway) with this, and what can I say except that I litteraly demolished a Protoss "Deathball" with it ?
No need for a 2nd round, I lost only 25 supplies in the battle.
This is so good... I can't even see why it hasn't be used yet.
Replays inc, I'm playing plain noobs atm because of the master reset + long time without ladder. I'll post them once back in EU top 500.
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I've only had success with roach/queen on small maps. I go for a ~12min 115-130 food +1/+1 push (off 1 base gas). Grab a third, all the gases, and do whatever transition necessary during the push (make one more wave of roaches, so about 8-10 more). I feel that there is a pretty good window during that time where you can hit your opponent before they have a critical mass to offset transfuse. The army is very tanky and cost effective, so it is a good way to move into the mid game imo.
Larger map/far distance spawn, my concern is that it is not difficult to control the mobility of the queens by tumor sniping. Not to mention it takes about 30-60 seconds longer to get in position to strike at your opponent. I have not yet tried doom drop or nydus in this case (or even both at the same time), but that would make the timing very different, and I'm not sure if there is a good time to hit after the 11-12 minute mark.
I don't see queens being useful in late game because at that time you need units that are readily able to perform, and with queens you are sacrificing supply for a unit that is fairly useless till a few minutes down the road, which is a big enough opening for your opponent to roll over you.
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On January 18 2011 04:23 mr_tolkien wrote:And thanks to the Z building style, I just made a 220/200 army (yep, 20 evo chambers are "just" 1500 min and you get 75% back anyway) with this, and what can I say except that I litteraly demolished a Protoss "Deathball" with it ?
No need for a 2nd round, I lost only 25 supplies in the battle.
I most definitely need a replay of this because it just sounds freaking awesome.
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I have used about 12 queens in my last ZvP.
The protoss was spamming T to storm, and I was spamming T to transfuse. IT WAS COMPLETELY AWESOME. I came out way ahead in the fight and they help a lot versus phoenix harrass. Being able to last minute transfuse overlords is a godsend.
Thanks for this thread, without it, I would have definitely lost thousands of minerals more in overlords.
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On January 18 2011 04:51 SpaceYeti wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 04:23 mr_tolkien wrote:And thanks to the Z building style, I just made a 220/200 army (yep, 20 evo chambers are "just" 1500 min and you get 75% back anyway) with this, and what can I say except that I litteraly demolished a Protoss "Deathball" with it ?
No need for a 2nd round, I lost only 25 supplies in the battle. I most definitely need a replay of this because it just sounds freaking awesome.
This will come, I'll do it (much) better soon :p
On January 18 2011 04:39 Xeken wrote:
I don't see queens being useful in late game because at that time you need units that are readily able to perform, and with queens you are sacrificing supply for a unit that is fairly useless till a few minutes down the road, which is a big enough opening for your opponent to roll over you.
You're wrong. Having 20 worth of supply of queen late game IS game breaking. I watched a replay and one of my BroodLord sustained approxmately 1500 damages. 1500. And Broodlings where popping everywhere.
It's completly BROKEN late game. Of course after the first big fight and all energy use, sac them. They tank damages like wonders, so no reason not to do it after all ! And then insta remax with whatever, I remember you you're a T3 Z, you basically are the king of sexy tech switches.
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Woah. Assuming the opponents have no armor, queens have the same DPS as roaches. However, roaches have 145 hp, cost 75 min less but 25 gas more, and have a slightly larger range.
However, queen is not armored, therefore can survive a lot of rauder or immortal shots compared to roaches. and they dont take up larvae. They also have their abillities which is the most important of all. (but they are so fu$## slow).
If i had way too many min, y not get some queens?
however, with limited rescources, roaches may be a better option depending on the opponent's army composition.
EDIT: actually no it wont. becos queens are ownage and a zerg shud have a good eco anyway 
I realised how many positives of queens there are to negative. SO many reasons that queens are so useful. i missed another important one. they are anti air.
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I've seen a couple of replays when someone would push with lets say broodlords and have 6-10 queens in the background transfusing them. Wish i could micro well enough to incorporate more queens.
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On January 18 2011 05:24 bearjuice wrote:
I've seen a couple of replays when someone would push with lets say broodlords and have 6-10 queens in the background transfusing them. Wish i could micro well enough to incorporate more queens.
You get used to the micro.
Before yesterday, I think I've used transfusion <20 times. Now, I've probably used it hundreds. It's a little bit awkward at first, but while you're transfusing, just think to yourself, "When was the last time I made more creep tumors? Is my larva injection done? If it is, I need to send reinforcements," and such like that.
If it's really hard, just playing against very hard AI will sometimes help (not a long-term, in depth practice. More for just getting into an engagement and macroing while fighting).
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While I was watching TLO's stream the other day, I saw some more evidence of the queen's "tanking" role. It was a ZvT on Scrap station, and the Terran had set up seige tanks inbetween the destructable middle lane and the smoke by the natural. What TLO did is he pulled out two queens, seperated them, then sent them into the seige tank line. As soon as the seige tanks fired on the queens, TLO ran in with 20-30 speedlings, with roaches and I beleive hydra support. It absolutely demolished that tank line.
Best part was that one queen survived after all the tanks had fired.
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On January 18 2011 05:36 DeltaBravo wrote:
While I was watching TLO's stream the other day, I saw some more evidence of the queen's "tanking" role. It was a ZvT on Scrap station, and the Terran had set up seige tanks inbetween the destructable middle lane and the smoke by the natural. What TLO did is he pulled out two queens, seperated them, then sent them into the seige tank line. As soon as the seige tanks fired on the queens, TLO ran in with 20-30 speedlings, with roaches and I beleive hydra support. It absolutely demolished that tank line.
Best part was that one queen survived after all the tanks had fired.
They absorb five tank shots, splash included.
Queens tank like bosses.
My game is evolving so much right now, when I'll be stable again I'll post reps. I'm far too sloppy atm, but hell, BL transition costs so much XD Need around 1k 1k saved up two times (corruptors, then BLs) to be really effective lol.
PS : The fast hive also allows me to go fast cracklings. +3/+0 cracklings are like the best unit for little raids in this game. 4 supply of Lings = a whole mineral line raped.
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There are two situations to consider after a big fight
1. Army trade, in which case you want to be aggressive, and you obviously do not want queens in this case.
2. Opponent with some forces remaining, in which case you can choose to play passive or aggressive, depending on how many units are left.
For the first point, there is no discussion, you go for the kill. For the second point, it would depend on how many/what type of units your opponent has left. For the cases you would play passive is when you would try to remass with some queens mixed in. However, this is where I have a problem with the idea.
In the only situation where you would consider getting a second round of queens, it is not the best approach at that specific point in the game. Getting queens means you need about 2-3 minutes to grab ~10 queens off 3-4 bases, and about another minute-1.5 minutes to get enough energy to have a respectable number of transfuse (avg of 2 per queen). In the end game, with your opponent still having somewhat of a standing army, a 3-5 minute window is very dangerous. You are very vulnerable till your queens are ready, which is why I dislike getting a second round, because your opponent gets to dictate when to engage if you do.
I've also considered fewer queens during the end game, but I felt that only a few queens worth of transfuse is more of a novelty than anything else. If you go a lot of queens, you are obviously going to just ram your opponent's front door down. If you go no queens, you can go for the main, or just hit all the peripherals. Going a few queens? You can't do either.
Again, from personal experience, the first push with queens has been effective. If the fight is a draw, I have not seen a situation where getting queens is safe. Playing passive when you don't have to past the early game is just not smart imo.
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The thing is Zerg is fundamentally a race where you mass and throw units at the enemy. Eco, then mass and throw units. So keeping units alive isn't the biggest part of our mind set, such as terran with tanks and toss with sentries. So even though it can tank a but and heal, it's not that important to overall success. 20 tranfuses is great but not if you could have that many more zerglings as fodder or drones mining. Not to mention 50 energy and if you're a good zerg player you shouldn't have that on your injecting queens ever. Creep spread is good too but you only need 1 or 2 extra queens for that
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^^ Yeah....but this is about massing queens, having more than one per base, which will give you plenty of energy for transfusion. Like queens specifically for the battle.
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On January 17 2011 06:29 Zelniq wrote:
yeah queens are definitely good
calling it now, in HotS the queen can morph into a matriarch with new abilities and more mobility It would be cool if the queen could morph into an airborne spellcaster in HotS. Similar to the old queen except with an ability to instantly win the game for 50 energy.
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I just had some guy rage for 20 minutes and float away all of his buildings so I couldn't kill them because I, "cheesed him," and used the, "most lazy skillless build," he'd ever seen. Also, i'm Zerg, so I suck.
I just mass expanded and teched to broodlords.... (BroodLord + Queen = Best time I've had in SC in a while)
It envoked the rage of a bad player. This is officially a build.
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On January 18 2011 09:38 TALegion wrote:
It envoked the rage of a bad player. This is officially a build.
lol
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Hopefuly mr_tolkien is still reading this thread.
I was wondering as to how well the build you describ ein the OP is going to deal with a fast 4gate at around 6:30 when they send first stalker and zealots and reinforce.Looks like your going to have like 5 or 6 Queens and about 6 roaches with your 2 lings out n the map to scout it coming.
This sounds like it MAY be able to hold with a second crawler and a lot of transfuses.
If it can hold a 4gate im starting to wonder exactly what is going to be a strong opener from T or P vs this.
How does it do vs a 2 rax, your getting hatch first and a fast crawler so this is the standard reaction to the 2rax, however I feel like you might need to drop queens 3 and 4 for lings to help defend since maybe the 3rd and4th queens wont be up in time to defend the second wave.
I was doing some messing around in the unit tester this morning before work after reading this thread, I was thinking that mass VR is going to counter the BL+queen combo, I was very suprised to see that Queens are supply efficient counters to voidrays with only a handful of transfuses on the queens.
Ie 30 Queens > 20VRs. This is a fairly big suprise to me because I often thought that VRs once in these numbers are almost unstoppable.
also to note is as Queens are range7 to a Hydra and VR's 6. It means with fungal queens can range on VRs for free hits.
This is making me very excited hoping i can pull off the micro/macro required at my realtively low skill of 2.7k dia 
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On second thoughts if your against mass VR, you just save yourself the money and dont morph in like half of the BLs and save the corrupters which with the queens is going to roll through mass Vr.
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On January 18 2011 23:23 BoonSolo wrote:
Hopefuly mr_tolkien is still reading this thread.
I was wondering as to how well the build you describ ein the OP is going to deal with a fast 4gate at around 6:30 when they send first stalker and zealots and reinforce.Looks like your going to have like 5 or 6 Queens and about 6 roaches with your 2 lings out n the map to scout it coming.
(...)
How does it do vs a 2 rax, your getting hatch first and a fast crawler so this is the standard reaction to the 2rax, however I feel like you might need to drop queens 3 and 4 for lings to help defend since maybe the 3rd and4th queens wont be up in time to defend the second wave.
VS 4 Gayte : ABSOLUT RAPE.
You first crawler will likely score 10+ kills, be healed 3-4 times, and your roaches will be safe near him. This build is a COUNTER to 4 gate. It's a straight BO loss if he attacks.
VS 2 Rax pressure : Crawler defends like a boss, he only takes 3 damages from rines. This + heal = easy to defend.
You may have to drop a second crawler though to protect your whole hatch.
So let me restate what it counters :
Any air play
A lot of agressive play from P or T
It's countered by :
Cheese (2 rax all in, 6 pool,...)
It transitions into :
Everything
I really love this build that far. So far from the meta game I'm getting a lot free wins with it (T sees a spire : 20+ turrets lololol).
I mainly loses because of mis micro, as it is VERY intensive.
I already made 2 vods but I'm not happy with my opponent's level...
On January 18 2011 07:10 NTGKOA wrote:
Zerg is fundamentally a race where you mass and throw units at the enemy.
Where is it written ? As long as there isn't a law for this, you have the right to be creative...
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EPT
