|
On January 17 2011 11:32 Chance55 wrote:
I've had huge success with lots of queens at lower levels, but I always assumed that if you relied on them too much at higher levels people would stuff stuff with EMP or feedback.
If they want to Feedback my queens and not storm my army, I'd scream for them to and present my queens on a platter.
|
I love queens but my main problem with using them myself is while they make an amazing anti air replacement, they get in the way late game as anti ground (how did we zergs ever survive with 3 range roaches?) lack the dps of hydras and my biggest issue is you can't really ever attack opponents bases with queens (besides a few exceptions) because no matter how many queens you have tumors will never reach your opponents base (unless he's terrible) and they're almost 100% useless off creep.
Not saying it can't work, I just don't know how to make it work though I'll try experimenting some more with queens when I scout phoenix / void ray.
|
|
|
I usually get 2 queens per hatch and then even more if I am going muta. Mutas are damn expensive and transfuse saves my ass so many times. Some day, Im going to try mass queen.
|
On January 17 2011 12:06 Grijzeham wrote:
I love queens but my main problem with using them myself is while they make an amazing anti air replacement, they get in the way late game as anti ground (how did we zergs ever survive with 3 range roaches?) lack the dps of hydras and my biggest issue is you can't really ever attack opponents bases with queens (besides a few exceptions) because no matter how many queens you have tumors will never reach your opponents base (unless he's terrible) and they're almost 100% useless off creep.
Not saying it can't work, I just don't know how to make it work though I'll try experimenting some more with queens when I scout phoenix / void ray.
Queens should get the same speed upgrade as overlords, that would make them viable as a healer at least.
|
I've always kind of wanted to do mass queens in a build, but the synergy with other units is actually quite disappointing in my experience.
Queens don't cost larva, but make larva (hypothetically). So you'll have to get lots of (extra) hatches. 3 hatches / base is too much to constantly make queens / lings, but 2 / base is fine. Zerglings are cost-efficient but not larva-efficient, so they go together well. Transfuse isn't good for lings, though; and there's a huge discrepancy in mobility.
With roaches, 1 hatch / base is more likely (or 3 / 2bases), so you'll probably get way less queens out. And with roaches, lair timing is a big deal for upgrades, so getting multiple queens early can certainly be damaging. I'd imagine you can squeeze out 5 hatches of pure roaches off of 3 bases.
Queens build one at a time at the speed it takes to make 2 marines, but a hatch costs as much as 2 raxes and takes almost twice as long to build. Because of this, they aren't really a viable early game army supplment, and your opening will definately either have to be structured around the idea of getting a lot of mod-game queens, or you'll just constantly make them as a minor army supplement or a late-game thing.
Early game they're fine to pretty good against most things when they're worked into a composition, and since they don't use larva you need for drones there's no reason not to get some, but the lair is a big thing and you'll probably only get about 3 queens out before the early game is over, maybe more if you did some kind of early pool.
Midgame queens are pretty good imo, because even if you're up against an army composition that queens aren't useful against, queens are never useless, and it's always easy to transition out of them (although transitioning into them is quite hard). Helpful against the early mech units from both races, bad against the t1 forces, and great against the air forces.
Lategame queens are just really supply efficient as their own army, and compliment t3 forces really well. If you can get a lot of them, I think queens are the ideal lategame up-shooter for zerg, far better than hydras lategame. The gas you save will compliment your t3 force extremely well, too. I've never managed to pull it off, though.
|
I think this discussion is especially relevant due to the new ZvP matchup, if anyone has any replays about finding the right number of early queens for a queen/roach play or whatever, please feel free to share :D
|
This sounds very interesting. I've already been much more proactive about spreading my creep lately, but going for more queens and mixing them into the army actually sounds great. I'll see if I can't mix them in more. If anyone has any replays of this actually working in a ZvP or ZvT that'd be great. Gonna test this out when I get the chance.
|
Queens are really useful for muta harass also. You usually build up a ton of extra minerals and can get up to half a dozen extra queens. Regularly retreating for transfuses on your mutalisks keeps them healthy and alive, stops the terran from wearing them down.
|
I've tested getting more and more Queens. And even though I've been recently demoted to Plat, the results were pretty concrete. As I played, I tried to get more and more queens.
The best combos seem to be Muta and Roaches.
Roaches benefit most with the heals and the creep spread, also the mutual upgrades make the gas spending easier. In combat heals on roaches won me SO many fights tonight alone.
In terms of mutas, less queens were required (as I only really needed them for the periodic heals when they return from harassing). But still, they made a large difference in bewteen harassment and supporting during pushes.
I did want to try to tech to Brood Lords or Ultras in some games, but even if I didn't beat them with my harassment or pushes, they were just left incapable of defending adequately, and it would have proven nothing.
General findings:
Having queens being constantly produced has little downside. The fact that they're made from hatches instead of larva (in fact, they MAKE MORE LARVA) allows maximum production for your army (your unit production is barely phased by the queens) between them and your regular units.
Before a push, queens are HARDLY a waste. They sit back, spread creep, gain energy for future in-combat Tranfusions, and demolish all forms of air attacks. Mutas can be easily shrugged off. Drops, if intercepted well, can also be stopped before they even happen.
There is a limit to how many queens you should have. Between your bases (1 queen each for injections) and your army, there's a point where more queens =/= better. After about 10-12 queens, they just take up a lot of space (which is considerable if you're going roaches), you have enough transfusions, and they start to take up a pretty significant amount of food.
Maybe my findings are a little invalid because I haven't been playing against tip-top players, but overall, queens are DEFINATELY something that will be getting more and more of.
|
Yay, queens are a bad unit VS Ground. But as I said, never forget to TANK with them, this is one of the major point of the thread. They don't deal damage very good, but they take it wonderfuly, thanks to their very special type.
|
Agreed, great post! I'll add that queens are good if you're trying an early nydus push with roaches. You can bring a couple queens to handle early voidrays without cutting into your gas budget for the nydus tech. This transitions nicely into infestors, since you're using very little gas for your army. Queen AA in turn works well with fungal, since they have such long range.
|
Great input. I was thinking in that direction, too. I am looking forward to incorporate this into my (recently roach heavy) play.
|
I'm messing around a lot with the optimization progs over here.
I currently am looking at optimization for FE + 30 drones + 6 queens + 8 roaches + 2 fast lings for scouting + Metabolic boost + a spine crawler (necessary as we're going Roaches).
Time : 7:00 approximatly.
I really am curious and will dwelve this, it's really promising. You can afterward go Lair, and once you pushed the first "wave" back go into creep explosion mode (4 queens spreading creep = madness).
The opening is 14 hatch 15 pool, very classic and quite defendable.
+ Show Spoiler [BO] +10 Overlord
10 Extractor Trick
14 Hatchery
15 Spawning Pool
18 Overlord
18 Extractor
17 Zergling
18 Queen
21 Move Drone To Gas
21 Move Drone To Gas
Waypoint 1 satisfied:
3:58.02: 346M 11G 0L 0L 0L 0E 22/ 28S
Income: 633M 76G
Buildings: 2 Hatchery 1 Extractor 1 Spawning Pool
Units: 17 Drone 3 Overlord 2 Zergling
Upgrades:
23 Move Drone To Gas
24 Spine Crawler
23 Queen
26 Overlord
26 Spawn Larvae
28 Queen
31 Overlord
31 Spawn Larvae
Waypoint 2 satisfied:
4:56.12: 111M 118G 0L 0L 0L 17E 31/ 36S
Income: 852M 114G
Buildings: 2 Hatchery 1 Extractor 1 Spawning Pool 1 Spine Crawler
Units: 23 Drone 4 Overlord 2 Queen 2 Zergling
Upgrades:
35 Metabolic Boost
35 Queen
37 Queen
39 Roach Warren
38 Spawn Larvae
38 Spawn Larvae
38 Overlord
38 Overlord
38 Queen
40 Spawn Larvae
40 Spawn Larvae
40 Roach
42 Roach
44 Roach
46 Roach
48 Roach
50 Roach
52 Roach
54 Roach
Waypoint 3 satisfied:
6:59.53: 318M 52G 5L 10L 0L 36E 59/ 60S
Income: 1110M 114G
Buildings: 2 Hatchery 1 Extractor 1 Spawning Pool 1 Spine Crawler 1 Roach Warren
Units: 30 Drone 7 Overlord 6 Queen 2 Zergling 8 Roach
Upgrades: Metabolic Boost
After this you're free to go. Lair is highly recommended, and you can do it will pumping lings if necessary. If you're not under pressure, fast B3, fast T3.
Do think there is a fundamental flaw in this BO ? I'll definitly be trying it out on ladder as it sounds sooooooooo cool.
|
to think the queen was once super awesome. I wish it was still like this, sounds so cool
some one tell me what those last 2 abilities did :O
Originally, the queen was a unique unit (like the Mothership originally was) of the Zerg[2], who could be mutated into two consecutive upgrades. From Queen to Large Queen to Huge Queen. The normal Queen could Burrow, Lay Creep Tumors, Lay Swarm Clutch, Lay Shrieker, Evolve Queen and cast Regeneration. Basically, she was in charge of the Hive Cluster's defence.
Her abilities increased as a Large Queen, adding Deep Tunnel and Swarm Infestation to the array of skills, making her better at transporting between bases and also more able to defend the base. The Huge Queen could not evolve further, but instead use Toxic Creep, which made creep poisonous to walk on. Each size increase also significantly boosted her hit points, armor and damage. She originally had only a very limited air attack, using her tentacles to nearby flying units.
By mid December the same year, the Queen was no longer unique, and the Swarm Clutches and Shriekers were definitely overpowered. The change to make her non-unique was possibly at the time also to make the Mothership more of a unique feature.
ot: will definately try to use them more/ in bigger numbers
|
Queen drops are awesome, specially in ZvZ, you can usually snipe some overlords and stir shit up since you get the bonus speed from his creep, you can also drop a tumor on his creep and try to hide it under a queen until it's done, now you have vision of his base :D
Against T or Z, if you queen drop, remember your overlords can spread creep too, and you can put tumors on that creep, just saying.
|
This thread is slowly convincing me to try them more in zvz. Roach infestor with some heavy queen support for healing doesn't sound too bad actually.
Edit: Ninja creep tumour in the opponent's base.... wow I definitely have to try this!
|
By the way, there's a simply trick to spreading creep. It takes a decent amount of time for a creep tumor to build, and THEN it takes a decent amount of time for the cooldown to go down for the next tumor. This is about the same amount of time as the Spawn Larva timer.
So a good way to remember to spread creep is simply do it every time you spawn larva.
|
Been trying it in custom, I just absolutely RAPE anybody who is below master with.
This build is REALLY safe as far as I can see, I really never had a BO loss, and i usually get BLs + mass transfuse by 12:00, with 3 bases, it's so scary oO Not to mention complete maphack with 100+ creep tumours.
This. Is. So. Awesome. Updating OP with the BO, I'll begin to use it on the ladder tomorrow.
EDIT : Done 2 ladders with it, 2-0 atm, and they both said «wp» :p
|
On one of those strange instances of ZvZ where you reach lategame, queens along with a few ultras are truly unstoppable. The big advantage of the lategame roach army against ultras is that the roaches can focus fire down every individual ultra. Focus fire on the ultras makes it absurdly easy to heal with queens. Throw in an infestor to lock things down and you're set!
I really liked the idea for other matchups though. Will try it once I get home  .
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
