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On January 19 2011 21:44 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 07:15 Jermstuddog wrote:
No, queens do about 1/2 the DPS of a hydra vs air, maybe 2/3... Queen DPS VS air : 9 Hydra DPS VS air : 14 Difference : Hydras have 5/6 range VS 7, have 90HP VS 175HP+1 armor, cost more (gas), don't have one of the best spells in the game, and require a special tech (and of course an upgrade to become useful). So no, definitly, queens are better anti air. By far. Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 16:43 NTGKOA wrote:
It's not a law... It's an opinion just like everything else in this forum. You didn't say it like this.
Well you are glossing over a couple of things when you say Queens are better anti-air than hydra. Hydra, as slow as they are, are much faster than queens, on and off-creep. Hydra also pack more tightly so you can get a higher effective DPS in a smaller area. And of course, build faster (33 vs 50) and they produce from larvae, allowing you to make a bunch of them quickly, unlike the queen.
They each have their role, Queens do not dominate in the zerg anti-air department in all situations, hydra are still needed.
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It seems this thread can be summed up so far with this.
If you disagree please post.
Queen Pros
Minerals Only to build
Can attacks ground and air
"Tanks" damage for your army b/c of unit type
Inject KEY for economy
Creep Spread Key for engaging enemy forces
Transfuse is VERY Versatile.
Does not use larva; builds straight from hatch.
Queen Cons
Slow and Fat
Need hatch to build, cannot mass w/ larva.
Usually you wouldn't want to mass queens anyway if you just lost a large engagement, you should still have your queens for injects and have plenty of larva for a "real army" so maybe not really a con but I felt like it could possibly go either way.
Early-->Mid Game
-Queens are great early game for base defense from early attacks and anti air.
-Queens can continue to be great base Anti Air as well as OBVIOUSLY Spread creep + Inject Larvae throughout the game.
-Transfuse is KEY in early game survival (spines/queens buildings)
Mid-->Late Game
-Continue to spread creep and larvae inject.
-Transfuse mutas for extra efficiency of each unit.
-Tank damage for the rest of your army.
-Transfuse key army units e.g roaches/broods/ultra etc
-Drops with ovies/nydus to spread creep in enemies base for vision and added pressure (T/P can't build buildings on creep)
If I missed anything let me know..
Edit: Clarified Grammar.
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Heres a replay for you guys.. it was a public game, think against a gold, just wanted to try it. I'm Diamond.
I had about 10 queens or so when we fought each other.. I checked sc2gears after and I madce 278 creep tumours, I wanted to focus on spreading the creep more then anything.
I thought my creep spread at the end was quite interesting.
Anyway, here you go. I basically just went mass queen to defend, saved up on larva and a trust fund until I needed units.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-182214.jpg)
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This thread inspired me to take a closer look at the synergy between queens and ultralisks using a unit tester map. I just did some testing (a-moved armies, arranged reasonably), and the results astonished me:
ZvT
3 Ultralisks vs. 10 marines, 10 marauders, 2 medivacs
(All units fully upgraded, fully charged, terran stimmed, combat on creep)
Results: Typically 4-6 marines, 4-7 marauders, and 2 medivacs survived.
3 Ultralisks, 2 queens vs. 10 marines, 10 marauders, 2 medivacs
Results: 2 Ultralisks, 2 queens survived.
ZvZ
3 Ultralisks vs. 10 roaches, 10 hydralisks
(All units fully upgraded, fully charged, combat on creep, hydras in back)
Results: Typically 1-5 roaches, 8-10 hydralisks survived
3 Ultralisks, 2 queens vs. 10 roaches, 10 hydralisks
Results: 2 ultralisks, 2 queens survived
ZvP
3 Ultralisks vs. 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 1 immortal, 1 colossus
(All units fully upgraded, fully charged, combat on creep)
Results: Typically 1-2 zealots, 4 stalkers, 1 immortal, 1 colossus survived.
3 Ultralisks, 2 queens vs. 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 1 immortal, 1 colossus
Results: 3 Ultralisks, 2 queens survived.
That last result blows my mind. Without the queens, zerg is basically killing one zealot per ultralisk. With just 2 fully charged queens added, zerg beats the whole protoss army with no losses! :O
I'll definitely be looking to bring queens along with my mid-late game armies in future.
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"Zerg are the only race "without" healers for harass forces. Toss have shields, Terrans have everything. But this is just an illusion."
Because Zerg units naturally regain health over time? Maybe? >_>
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On January 20 2011 14:56 whatthefat wrote:This thread inspired me to take a closer look at the synergy between queens and ultralisks using a unit tester map. I just did some testing (a-moved armies, arranged reasonably), and the results astonished me: + Show Spoiler +ZvT
3 Ultralisks vs. 10 marines, 10 marauders, 2 medivacs
(All units fully upgraded, fully charged, terran stimmed, combat on creep)
Results: Typically 4-6 marines, 4-7 marauders, and 2 medivacs survived.
3 Ultralisks, 2 queens vs. 10 marines, 10 marauders, 2 medivacs
Results: 2 Ultralisks, 2 queens survived.
ZvZ
3 Ultralisks vs. 10 roaches, 10 hydralisks
(All units fully upgraded, fully charged, combat on creep, hydras in back)
Results: Typically 1-5 roaches, 8-10 hydralisks survived
3 Ultralisks, 2 queens vs. 10 roaches, 10 hydralisks
Results: 2 ultralisks, 2 queens survived
ZvP
3 Ultralisks vs. 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 1 immortal, 1 colossus
(All units fully upgraded, fully charged, combat on creep)
Results: Typically 1-2 zealots, 4 stalkers, 1 immortal, 1 colossus survived.
3 Ultralisks, 2 queens vs. 4 zealots, 4 stalkers, 1 immortal, 1 colossus
Results: 3 Ultralisks, 2 queens survived. That last result blows my mind. Without the queens, zerg is basically killing one zealot per ultralisk. With just 2 fully charged queens added, zerg beats the whole protoss army with no losses! :O I'll definitely be looking to bring queens along with my mid-late game armies in future.
Very interesting post. What I like about this post/thread is that no one can say the absolutely ceiling for zerg is easily reached in terms of micro (not that they did anyway but =P), and that there are strategies out there that are possible and potentially practical.
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On January 20 2011 15:02 Exxo wrote:
"Zerg are the only race "without" healers for harass forces. Toss have shields, Terrans have everything. But this is just an illusion."
Because Zerg units naturally regain health over time? Maybe? >_>
key word = harass, shields have delay but recharge VERY quickly, terrans obvs, zerg heal only is noticeable for buildings/hatchqueens/drones
On January 20 2011 11:33 B34ST wrote:
Heres a replay for you guys.. it was a public game, think against a gold, just wanted to try it. I'm Diamond.
I had about 10 queens or so when we fought each other.. I checked sc2gears after and I madce 278 creep tumours, I wanted to focus on spreading the creep more then anything.
I thought my creep spread at the end was quite interesting.
Wow I know you were joking around, but LOL @ that creep
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hehe.. I've used it a few times in games, I'm still getting used to it vs terran, I played one game and he just went mass thor marine (12 thors) on 2 bases, vs me on 4 base (5 hatch), used 6 queens to defend his harrasses but didn't tech to ultras so ended up losing.
Also vs another terran I was using so little gas (8 queens defending) I forgot to take gysers so when it finally came to making units I only had 300gas.. queens made me forgot about it ha..
But yeah, I'm definatly using queen based play in my match ups now, just need to work on the harrass side.. I'm thinking either queen muta vs terran or quick tech queen ultra drops..
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Here is another replay. It's like 10°C in my room and I'm sick so I played REALLY poorly, and still... My opponent was 2500+ master.
First I went 5RR, he tried to counter with a 3 or 4 gate and a heavy count of sentries, I repelled him without much problems (didn't do a spine as I opened up 5RR).
I used the gas to go baneling drops = auto GG once I beat his Stalker/Immortal army with my Roaches and queens (yes, it works).
This replay is here to demonstrate how you can transition INTO this, which is needed if it can be as standard as I claim.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-182372.jpg)
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On January 20 2011 07:40 thurst0n wrote:
Queen Pros
Minerals Only to build
Can attacks ground and air
"Tanks" damage for your army b/c of unit type
Inject KEY for economy
Creep Spread Key for engaging enemy forces
Transfuse is VERY Versatile.
Does not use larva; builds straight from hatch.
Two more things i like to add...
-They attack twice and faster than roaches.
-They can tank even more damage if you have a proper borrow unborrow micro with the rest of your army, since a a-moved army don't switch their target unless its dead or out of range.
Both can be extremely useful against a immortal heavy army composition, even through the last one is a bit theorycrafting, because if there are immortals, there will be an orb somewhere...
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On January 21 2011 01:08 Nightmard2 wrote:
-They attack twice and faster than roaches.
They attack 4x to every 1 attack from a Roach.
This is a negative in every situation except for vs Immortals due to armor.
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On January 17 2011 06:29 Zelniq wrote:
yeah queens are definitely good
calling it now, in HotS the queen can morph into a matriarch with new abilities and more mobility
Now that would be sexy ! 
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On January 21 2011 01:36 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 01:08 Nightmard2 wrote:
-They attack twice and faster than roaches.
They attack 4x to every 1 attack from a Roach. This is a negative in every situation except for vs Immortals due to armor.
How is this a negative in every situation? We are talking about the ground attack I assume if we're comparing this to roach?
From Liquipedia, I dont' believe it's been posted in this thread yet..
+ Show Spoiler +Type Ground Unit
Description Defensive unit. Can Spawn Creep Tumors, Spawn Larva, and use the Transfusion ability. Moves much faster on creep.
Cost 150 0 50 2
Attributes Biological, Psionic
Attack Ground Attack: 4 (+1) (x2)
Air Attack: 9 (+1)
Range: 3 (ground), 7 (air)
Cooldown: 1 (air and ground)
Defense 175 1 (+1)
Hotkey Q
Energy 25 / 200
Sight 9
Speed 0.938
Speed Multiplier on Creep
Roach has 16 Ground attack with cooldown 2...
Could you elaborate on why this is bad in any situation except versus immortal.
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Think of it this way:
Base dps is the same as roach's.
Each armor the opponent has lowers the dps of a queen by 2, while it only lowers roach's dps by 0.5.
Each upgrade increases queens dps by 2, while roach's by 1.
This means, that roaches do better against targets with armor, but gain less from upgrade advantage. OTOH queens do not get any benefit from having equal upgrades with your opponent, while roaches do get one.
Examples:
DPS against unupgraded zealot:
Queen - 6
+1 Queen - 8
Roach - 7.5
+1 Roach - 8.5
Dps against unupgraded marine:
Queen - 8
+1 Queen - 10
Roach - 8
+1 Roach - 9
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I knew stuff like this would come up after seeing what people were calling crazy, impractical, and stupid....queen rushes in team games. While obviously hampered by creep spread, once mass queens can get into combat, their transfuse ability is downright scary. If they have full energy, which many will have if you've been massing them, then they have (125x4)+175 hp = 675 hp. Two queens with full energy basically have 1350 total hp.....for 300 minerals and 4 supply. And they hit both ground and air, and scale fairly well with upgrades. Imagine a +3 queen attack supported by ultras or brood lords. And that is not that far fetched of a strategy. Think T's slow tank push, just scarier because the Z can mass produce the main attacking units. Of course this relies on Z getting to t3, and Ts don't even like getting past the marine stage of the game.
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Makes a lot of sense. I think even early in games, I'm going to start making a lot more queens, 4-6 maybe more.
It is the one unit that can fight off anything you'll see early in a game. It saves larva that you can put toward drones, and once you get to about 6 or so can hold off quite a bit especially with some spines. Getting pretty old watching Phoenix fly around my base like 4 minutes into the game.
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Just checking back into this thread:
TL:DR: Queens have helped me immensely.
In ZvT (previously my worst matchup), early Queen, Sling, and Spine crawler defense protects me from nearly all of the rushes, cheese, and intense pressure that I would lose to originally. I used to fear this matchup SO much, but the early defenses and transition into Mutalisks (which can FINALLY get healed after harassing), Sling, Blings, and Queens.
In ZvP, roaches were already a dominant unit for me. With queen heals and obsessive creep spread (having 4 queens in army is always a great reminder that I should be spreading more creep), I've been winning more and more.
In ZvZ, the creap is obviously a double-edged sword, but allows for AWESOME map control. Like with T, my defenses (which, like P, is mainly roaches) are SO much stronger thanks to healed spine crawlers. The heals and creep can only positively effect my play, as they don't take up larva, I can use gas-heavy tech (like overseer harass/mutas/upgrades), they maximize production, are anti-air that doesn't require me to spend money on Hydras, and allow me to take map control.
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On January 21 2011 01:52 thurst0n wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 01:36 Jermstuddog wrote:On January 21 2011 01:08 Nightmard2 wrote:
-They attack twice and faster than roaches.
They attack 4x to every 1 attack from a Roach. This is a negative in every situation except for vs Immortals due to armor. How is this a negative in every situation? We are talking about the ground attack I assume if we're comparing this to roach? From Liquipedia, I dont' believe it's been posted in this thread yet.. + Show Spoiler +Type Ground Unit
Description Defensive unit. Can Spawn Creep Tumors, Spawn Larva, and use the Transfusion ability. Moves much faster on creep.
Cost 150 0 50 2
Attributes Biological, Psionic
Attack Ground Attack: 4 (+1) (x2)
Air Attack: 9 (+1)
Range: 3 (ground), 7 (air)
Cooldown: 1 (air and ground)
Defense 175 1 (+1)
Hotkey Q
Energy 25 / 200
Sight 9
Speed 0.938
Speed Multiplier on Creep
Roach has 16 Ground attack with cooldown 2... Could you elaborate on why this is bad in any situation except versus immortal.
This has been explained several times before, let's use the example of a Roach for defense, 0/0 ups on both sides.
A roach has 145 HP and 1 armor, lets ignore HP regen for now as it's mostly irrelevant, but know that factoring HP in further puts the queen at a disadvantage.
Please remember, you can only do whole numbers worth of attacks, so drop all fractions when making calculations here. We will ignore movement speed and range, both of which favor the roach. This is Damage dealt in a vacuum.
A roach would hit a roach for 15 damage every 2 seconds, due to the 1 armor. That means it takes 10x15=150 damage for a roach to kill a roach. 10 shots, 20 seconds.
A queen would hit a roach for 2x3 damage every one second, due to the 1 armor. That means it takes 2x3x25=150 damage to kill the roach. 25x2 hits, 25 seconds.
If we give +1 armor to the roach it gets even worse.
Our offensive roach is now hitting for 14 damage every 2 seconds. That means 11x14=154 damage to kill. 11 shots, 22 seconds.
Our queen now hits for 2x2 damage every 1 second. That is 2x2x37=148 damage to kill. 37x2 hits, 37 seconds.
Armor destroys a queens DPS, this is especially bad if you find yourself in the mid game vs a 1/2 opponent and haven't kept up on your offensive upgrades (which tend not to be all that useful for hydralisks and roaches anyway).
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*posted in wrong thread -nuked
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EPT
