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Soliduok
Canada222 Posts
I am wondering how you Zergs succeed (or you Terrans fail) against the early bio stim push. I just played close positions on Metalopolis where I scouted what I thought to be the bio stim push, and was correct, but I simply didn't prepare well enough. The attack came just before baneling speed finished at around 7 minutes, but was largely a Maurader composition anyways. When do you stop droning? What is your baneling to ling ratio? etc. | ||
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Spec
Taiwan931 Posts
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odeSSa
Sweden198 Posts
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CrayonKing
Cambodia124 Posts
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Soliduok
Canada222 Posts
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Wilder
United Kingdom33 Posts
I think it really is all about the positioning of your lings, banes and your buildings that hangs in the balance. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
It's nice to know the addons of the barracks, which I know on some maps it's easier said than done. If there's 2 reactors you can get away with lings & roach or ling/bane. if there's 2 tech labs and a reactor then you can easily do a 5:1 ling:bane ratio. If there's 3 tech labs then all lings should work if you expanded. Don't rush to tech if you see 3 rax. Typically you tech to get anti-air or counter factory or starport tactics. You also want to tech if he holds off and opts for an expand first, since there's some breathing room for you to drone up again. T1 units are actually pretty effective "ON CREEP" vs. Terran. Make sure you spread at least one tumor as well. Home field advantage is helpful for flanking. | ||
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whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
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CrayonKing
Cambodia124 Posts
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 15 2011 01:08 CrayonKing wrote: Just out of curiousty what league are you in? Im just wondering if 3rax all-in ish is still used in masters/diamond It's uncommon in masters On January 15 2011 01:04 whomybuddy wrote: terran researched Stim. Zerg need to research something to counter that or else you'll lose. That's not true. | ||
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Soliduok
Canada222 Posts
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Soliduok
Canada222 Posts
On January 15 2011 01:08 CrayonKing wrote: Just out of curiousty what league are you in? Im just wondering if 3rax all-in ish is still used in masters/diamond I am hovering at 2600 diamond. My opponent in this case was similar I believe. | ||
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
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Starshaped
Sweden575 Posts
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xciLe
Norway213 Posts
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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d_wAy
United States104 Posts
On January 15 2011 01:15 uok wrote: After watching the replay I did a little theory-crafting and I think it should be holdable if after getting ling speed, get lair, next 50 gas get baneling nest, then next 150 get baneling speed.Baneling speed will finish at 7:30 (very tight timing small maps) and all done with 1 gas. You can start pumping lings when you queen starts to give you larva, and you could probably afford a second queen somewhere in there for creep tumors. After successfully defending the attack you should have lots of minerals to expand (which the terran wil most likely be doing as well) and prepare for another bio stim (with combat shield) push at around 12. He will have double the army and following the same pattern as before you should aslo be able to conjur up double the army. Assuming all of this of course if your scouting information serves you correct. 1 gas? By that time I would expect 30-40 drones between the main and natural and in general you should take your 2nd gas during lair anyway. Also instead of pumping units when your queen can inject.. I would recommend instead trying to squeeze out every last drone you can and aside from those beginning few lings to scout and hold off super early pressure, I don't see the need to make so many attacking units. As you poke up and see the number of units he has... you can make units accordingly (but its important to know.. that if you keep up on larvae injects.. you have time to create units because he hasn't moved out nor has he crossed the map yet!). I generally keep no more than around 8-10 lings floating around the base. These are the ones I change to banelings when he actually does move out. The rest of the zerglings I make when I see him leave his base. As for the micro, sometimes its better to keep your lings slightly away from your base. This way, you can flank from behind or get your surround better. You want to run your lings slightly PAST the marines until you get a good surround and more importantly, block the marines in such a way that they can't micro against your slow banelings. Zerglings act as Zerg's forcefield, use them to block pathing so the marines cant do anything but blow up. | ||
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woowoo
France164 Posts
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Ptur
Ukraine85 Posts
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adius
United States249 Posts
On January 15 2011 07:20 woowoo wrote: Why not use burrow to counter stim? Get a group of speedlings, send them dance near terran units, wait for stim, burrow, wait for scan, unburrow, flee out of range of scan, repeat. You're gonna get hurt during the unburrow animation and during the time it takes to get out of range. | ||
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
Do not engage in narrow areas where your Banelings can be blocked by Marauders, and don't just all come from one direction. I do similar pushes as Terran, though I favor Marines and +1 Attack/Combat Shield over Stim, and I usually win the game (if not the fight) if I can block his Banelings with my Marauders at his choke, since it will usually mean we trade armies, which is great for bio Terran. | ||
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Kuzmorgo
Hungary1058 Posts
On January 15 2011 07:33 adius wrote: You're gonna get hurt during the unburrow animation and during the time it takes to get out of range. with roaches, but lings burrow in like 1/10 second. but yeah. its still easier and more safe to just run in and out.. | ||
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
On January 15 2011 07:47 Kuzmorgo wrote: with roaches, but lings burrow in like 1/10 second. but yeah. its still easier and more safe to just run in and out.. It's also 100/100 that could have went into a +1 Attack upgrade... | ||
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sicajung
United Kingdom297 Posts
goodluck in future. | ||
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eth3n
718 Posts
On January 15 2011 07:47 Kuzmorgo wrote: with roaches, but lings burrow in like 1/10 second. but yeah. its still easier and more safe to just run in and out.. Aren't all units 2ingame seconds burrow 1ingame second unburrow? | ||
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Lolmonkeyz01
4 Posts
except for ultra which is 2 (i mean think about it hes pretty beefy :D) | ||
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woowoo
France164 Posts
- Burrowed zerglings is underused and unexpected - Terran will waste a stim to chase speedlings - Terran will scan because he doesn't want to waste stim early and a group of speedlings underground is a big threat to his economy - Terran will focus on the zerglings and make him unaware of another attack like tunneling roaches or mutas on his economy. - Zerg doesn't lose units while Terran is unable to train as much as he could with mules. | ||
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Slytech
United States16 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
+1 melee attack, only costs 100/100 and has a similar research time as stim. +1 is very effective against bio, I recommend +1 with mass ling, saving your other gas for mutas for harass later on. The other thing you can do, is a roach/ling comp, because baneling speed won't finish in time but roaches will be out in plenty. Even if he goes mass marauder, sometimes you don't have enough surface area for your lings to do enough damage (especially if the terran has strong micro), a bunch of lings with 5-6 roaches can really do a lot of damage, again you aren't really spending more than 200 gas (100 for ling speed, another 100+ for roaches) which should help saving for mutas later. Then there is ling/baneling, but if you see heavy marauders it's in advised to get them, unless you plan on busting him before stim finishes which isn't a bad idea at all. Any time I see a terran one basing quite hard on close positions, a baneling bust is always viable. However, this can't be a 1 base baneling bust all-in, it has to be a 2 base eco bust which can be done before stim, just requires some gosu timing and good droning times, but it is certainly possible and very strong. It will keep the terran in his base and if you do enough damage, allow you to drone up some more or even tech if you can. btw, burrow and baneling speed research time has a difference of 10 seconds in game, if baneling speed can't finish in time, then burrow has a very slim chance as well. | ||
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
On January 15 2011 08:49 woowoo wrote: This tactic came to my mind for these reasons: - Burrowed zerglings is underused and unexpected - Terran will waste a stim to chase speedlings - Terran will scan because he doesn't want to waste stim early and a group of speedlings underground is a big threat to his economy - Terran will focus on the zerglings and make him unaware of another attack like tunneling roaches or mutas on his economy. - Zerg doesn't lose units while Terran is unable to train as much as he could with mules. Most Terran are not going to Stim until he is well and truly engaged, when against Zerglings. Though I can see how you could cause him to waste a Stim if you engage, then immediately burrow everything. I'm still not convinced it's worth the 100/100 at the 6-7 minute mark personally, however. | ||
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nanoscorp
United States1237 Posts
On January 15 2011 00:56 Amber[LighT] wrote: you shouldn't need speed banelings for this. It seems like you're teching too much. Can you post a replay? It's nice to know the addons of the barracks, which I know on some maps it's easier said than done. If there's 2 reactors you can get away with lings & roach or ling/bane. if there's 2 tech labs and a reactor then you can easily do a 5:1 ling:bane ratio. If there's 3 tech labs then all lings should work if you expanded. Don't rush to tech if you see 3 rax. Typically you tech to get anti-air or counter factory or starport tactics. You also want to tech if he holds off and opts for an expand first, since there's some breathing room for you to drone up again. T1 units are actually pretty effective "ON CREEP" vs. Terran. Make sure you spread at least one tumor as well. Home field advantage is helpful for flanking. This sound like good advice to me. Creep spread is really important. In a recent GSL match, JulyZerg used overlords spewing creep near his base along the attack path to make his territory easier to defend. Another thing you can do is park your army closer to the Terran base. Watchtowers are good. T may move out slightly before stim finishes. With lots of speedlings you can go for an early surround. If he does stim, you can pull back, wait it out and gather more reinforcements. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
however, Im not a huge fan of that because it's sort of knife edgy; and Id rather have something a bit more consistent. for that reason, I would go with something that lets me sacrifice my economy less than him. Im not going to get out of an all in by droning and placing my queens nicely. that's enough to stop a small push, but certainly not a dedicated attack, esp. with scvs. spine crawlers are good for that reason imo. spread creep way out in front of them, set them up to zone T into an area he is going to have a really hard time escaping from, and surround with speedlings. use your queen's second 25 energy to lay a creep tumor; it's sooooooooooooooooo worth losing one inject. that's assuming he is making a decent number of marauders. if it's pure marine then roaches might be a better choice. | ||
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Tynan
Canada111 Posts
Just keep half your lings out by the gold (in Metal). When he gets close to your base, hit him with a group from your base and a group from behind. Instant surround; kiting is impossible. Also makes it really hard to use Marauders to block Banelings when they come from the unexpected side. | ||
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Terminator(471)
United States243 Posts
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Noob3rt
Canada114 Posts
The key factor is information so you have time to react, so make sure you scout so you do not build a round of drones instead of Zerglings. | ||
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woowoo
France164 Posts
On January 15 2011 09:14 Scare_Crow wrote: Most Terran are not going to Stim until he is well and truly engaged, when against Zerglings. Though I can see how you could cause him to waste a Stim if you engage, then immediately burrow everything. I'm still not convinced it's worth the 100/100 at the 6-7 minute mark personally, however. I tried it and it's not worth it, burrow takes too much time. I remember it was good in BW, burrow on tier 2 sucks, I don't understand why blizz did that. The burrow animation is slower than in BW I thinks. | ||
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