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On January 09 2011 12:05 TyrantPotato wrote:
the thread is about stalkers. do not derail the thread by introducing collosus and hts.
Why? Sentries,at the very least, are critical to discussing the balance of the stalker. They are a force multiplier that increases the effectiveness of the stalker greatly. Force fields to disrupt the enemy force and guardian shield to take advantage of their already high shields.
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On January 09 2011 08:47 Theston wrote:
Roach/Hydra is much better against Stalkers than pure Hydras. Roaches are there for tanking the damage.
Ling/Roach or Ling/Hydra ist also fine. How would these roaches tank if hydras have the same range as stalkers?
You just focus down the hydras first, and then you're left only with roaches which stalkers fair much better against.
With zealot I get this idea, they are melee, but stalkers have the same range as hydras, there is nothing that stops you from focussing them down first.
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On January 09 2011 12:07 Duban wrote:Show nested quote +
the thread is about stalkers. do not derail the thread by introducing collosus and hts.
Why? Sentries,at the very least, are critical to discussing the balance of the stalker. They are a force multiplier that increases the effectiveness of the stalker greatly.
read the op.
not a word of sentries collosus opr hts are mentioned.
i agree they should be discussed as they are almost always seen with stalker armys.
however the op didn't do a good job of his opening post. and since there is no replay and with the little information given. we have to assume that he played against a low level player who just massed stalkers.
if he posts some replays. COUGH COUGH POST REPLAYS!!!!!!!!!
then we can discuss the inclusion of sentrys into the picture
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If the balls are big enough and are up against a wall so you can't get a sorround than zerglings can loose to stalkers. If you mix in ranged units like roaches, hydras or to a lesser extent muta you can even the playing field. Hydras are the best but all of them will beat equal reasorces worth of stalkers unless they do extremely well with their blink micro.
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On January 09 2011 12:08 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 08:47 Theston wrote:
Roach/Hydra is much better against Stalkers than pure Hydras. Roaches are there for tanking the damage.
Ling/Roach or Ling/Hydra ist also fine. How would these roaches tank if hydras have the same range as stalkers? You just focus down the hydras first, and then you're left only with roaches which stalkers fair much better against. With zealot I get this idea, they are melee, but stalkers have the same range as hydras, there is nothing that stops you from focussing them down first.
If the roaches or lings are closer then they hydras - which they will be due to their range -, then the stalkers will attack the roaches/lings first. Most players don't have the apm required to target each stalker without wasting tons of shots from the stalkers on an already dead hydra.
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I think shit like this is a good example of why discussing unit counters is silly - you can't just talk about one unit and ignore everything else. this isn't like the fastest maps in bw where everyone picks a unit and makes 6526552993 of it
tl;dr horrible op
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OP, can you post a replay, please?
I always lose horribly whenever I make a lot of stalkers.
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On January 09 2011 12:07 Duban wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 12:05 TyrantPotato wrote:
the thread is about stalkers. do not derail the thread by introducing collosus and hts. Why? Sentries,at the very least, are critical to discussing the balance of the stalker. They are a force multiplier that increases the effectiveness of the stalker greatly. Force fields to disrupt the enemy force and guardian shield to take advantage of their already high shields.
We're not discussing "the balance of Stalkers." You can't even have balance for a single unit.
The OP wanted to know about how to deal with mass Stalker, so we're talking about what units deal with purely them well.
If you do want to go there, though..
"Force multiplier" is not a thing. That's not a term we in StarCraft use, and it shouldn't become one. It just doesn't make sense. It's not like there's some number of sentries that you get where all of your stalkers are suddenly doubly as effective. They, as well as HTs and Collossi, do have good synergy with units that can protect them. This is true. But please, never say "force multiplier" again, because it's stupid and obfuscates your meaning.
Also, your reasoning for why these units are good with more durable units is pretty poor. Collossi and HTs are good with units that protect them because they are fragile, but do a lot of damage very quickly, and at a considerable range, so these bulky units can prevent opposing units from killing them. Sentries are similar, except instead of being strong because they deal a lot of damage, they're strong because they prevent a lot by limiting your opponent's ability to kite and form concaves, and by using guardian shield. "guardian shield to take advantage of their already high shields" also makes no sense; Guardian shield is better with a unit like the Zealot who has high HP, because then it can stack with their base armor.
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On January 09 2011 12:20 5ahj4g wrote:
I think shit like this is a good example of why discussing unit counters is silly - you can't just talk about one unit and ignore everything else. this isn't like the fastest maps in bw where everyone picks a unit and makes 6526552993 of it
tl;dr horrible op
If he's having trouble with mass Stalkers and not any well-crafted unit composition, it's perfectly reasonable for him to ask about how to deal with purely them. It's actually his opponents who are ignoring everything else, and thus them who are being 'silly'
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Against any brand of stalker, be it normal or blink, Infestor/ling works wonders.
Stalkers are really fucking fast. Even mass speedlings have a hard time getting a surround off against a large enough ball that's microing well. Add in blink and stalkers can pay for themselves five times over in the amount of damage they can do and units they can kite.
Fungal basically takes all that away from that immediately. Combine their low fire rate with subpar damage, and they simply die against almost anything in a straight up fight.
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On January 09 2011 12:20 Madslash wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 12:08 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:On January 09 2011 08:47 Theston wrote:
Roach/Hydra is much better against Stalkers than pure Hydras. Roaches are there for tanking the damage.
Ling/Roach or Ling/Hydra ist also fine. How would these roaches tank if hydras have the same range as stalkers? You just focus down the hydras first, and then you're left only with roaches which stalkers fair much better against. With zealot I get this idea, they are melee, but stalkers have the same range as hydras, there is nothing that stops you from focussing them down first. If the roaches or lings are closer then they hydras - which they will be due to their range -, then the stalkers will attack the roaches/lings first. Most players don't have the apm required to target each stalker without wasting tons of shots from the stalkers on an already dead hydra. Ah, okay, fair point, I suppose my case assumed perfect play, which players don't really do no.
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Before 20 stalkers are out pure drone is cost effective vs them. So my recommended army comp vs stalker as a Toss player is abso-frikken anything. Lings will kill them, roaches will kill them, in bigger numbers mutas will kill them. The ironic thing about the stalker is that the zerg unit they are actually most cost effective against is the hydra (I love how break even is considered cost effective for PvZ, lol. Just look at lings vs zealots :\), though in game practically speaking hydras are still incredible vs stalker as they completely nullify just about any micro you can do.
They are also hard-countered by upgrades. Any upgrades at all means that stalkers are half as or less effective.
On January 09 2011 12:42 Darthturtle wrote:
Against any brand of stalker, be it normal or blink, Infestor/ling works wonders.
Stalkers are really fucking fast.
LOL A ZERG USER SAYING 2.95 IS FAST. Dude let me tell you the only time I notice the stalker's 'speed' is when they get in front of my zealots to die to lings, roaches or marauders. Anything really. They can't even outrun slow lings on creep, and between stim and conc shells they are anything but fast, unless once again you compare them to other Toss units.
Also I am pretty sure that you cannot get a practical number of infestors out quick enough to stop any kind of mass stalker play.
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On January 09 2011 08:47 Theston wrote:
there is nothing that stops you from focussing them down first.
You are so much better off auto-attacking than focusing with stalkers its not even funny
stalkers overkill horribly and have huge recharge, gl with that
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On January 09 2011 12:27 Kpyolysis32 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 12:20 5ahj4g wrote:
I think shit like this is a good example of why discussing unit counters is silly - you can't just talk about one unit and ignore everything else. this isn't like the fastest maps in bw where everyone picks a unit and makes 6526552993 of it
tl;dr horrible op If he's having trouble with mass Stalkers and not any well-crafted unit composition, it's perfectly reasonable for him to ask about how to deal with purely them. It's actually his opponents who are ignoring everything else, and thus them who are being 'silly'
I agree with 5ahj4g. First off, the OP used the term counter (even though it was in quotation marks). It is not usually the unit that gives people trouble, but how that unit is used and under what circumstances. Asking for help against a Protoss that uses a lot of stalkers is so general that a useful discussion will probably not take place. Some replays of losing to stalkers would help and then we could see why these stalkers are giving him trouble.
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EPT
