[Q] ZVP how to "beat" stalker? - Page 2

HardCorey

United States709 Posts

January 09 2011 00:50 GMT

#21

I love infestors against stalkers. Probably zerg's most underused unit against protoss even though with roach/hydra using them as support can be crazily effective.

JMDj

United States454 Posts

January 09 2011 00:53 GMT

#22

Lots of hydras with lings and roaches mixed in will destroy mass stalkers.

ExO_

United States2316 Posts

January 09 2011 00:54 GMT

#23

Roaches fair well against stalkers cost-wise at all upgrade levels (assuming P and Z are relatively equal.) Roaches also eat Zealots making them great for all parts of the early-mid game. You do not need hydra/ling to beat roaches, just roaches will get the job done vs stalkers cost wise

TyrantPotato

Australia1541 Posts

January 09 2011 00:58 GMT

#24

On January 09 2011 09:17 Erucious wrote:

Show nested quote +

is this upgrade thing true?

Dont the stalker fire 2 shots? Doesnt the stalker get +2 to each attack upgrade?

nope just the one.

so with 3 attack upgrades.

roaches do 22 damage. stalkers 17(against armoured)

sure stalkers attack just slightly faster. but since roaches cost 50 minerals and 25 gas less. id rather be on the roaches side

Tandinel

66 Posts

January 09 2011 01:00 GMT

#25

I just played a toss who went mass stalkers with blink i beat him with roach/ling while upgrading missle and armor attacks on 3 base...was fairly easy zerglings are great for tanking and dps and roaches help dps as well especially with upgrades
you can also go roach/hydra or roach/ling with infestors

ExO_

United States2316 Posts

January 09 2011 01:01 GMT

#26

@ 3/3 I'm fairly sure roaches win 1-1 vs stalkers. The advantages stalkers have of the longer range, faster movement speed, and the ability to blink later on is neat sure, and useful. But I'd much rather have the roach if I could, straight up its one of the most efficient units for the cost

eth3n

718 Posts

January 09 2011 01:06 GMT

#27

The really damning statistic is their attack speed, for a +1/per level unit its ridiculously slow, of course this makes overkill even more painful for the P, and for all those of you who remember the overkill thread: "stalkers overkill like the motherfucking fist of the northstar!"

hydra = 12 base damage; +1/per level; attack speed = .83
stalker = 10 base damage (+4 armored); +1/per level; attack speed = 1.44

In in-game seconds:

hydra with level 2 ranged = 14 damage x .83 seconds = 16.86 dps
stalker with level 2 attack = 12 damage x 1.44 seconds = 8.33 dps

(stalker with level 2 attack = 17 x 1.44 seconds = 11.8 dps)
(roach with level 2 ranged = 20 damage x 2 seconds = 10dps)

Sbrubbles

Brazil5776 Posts

January 09 2011 01:11 GMT

#28

On January 09 2011 08:41 Motat wrote:
As zerg how do you beat stalkers when they are in big numbers. I know lings are really good against them early game, but once they get into a big ball lings are shit. How can I "counter" them?

On an open field lings are greatly cost-effective against stalkers EVEN in a big ball (350 lings will beat 50 stalkers). Remember, one stalker costs 7 lings ... the hard thing to do as zerg (when using lings against stalkers) is to have enough larvae. When you get constantly pressured, its really easy to mess up larva injection.

If you manage to get 1 upgrade ahead of your opponent then lings become even more amazing.

Twaxter

Canada190 Posts

January 09 2011 01:12 GMT

#29

Roach Hydra does very well against them, but in small numbers your best with just hydra ling. The surround is awesome. As soon as they hit a critical mass(what you stated) where they can just move back and shoot those lings, or have sentries with good force fields, roach hydra is the way. If they hit blink, then you need fungal growth, make them stand still. Early game, like a 4 gate, just go pure speedling, against stalker only, its a great trade, plus with some support from your spinecrawler.

If your going muta/ling you don't need to transition completely though, hydra/ling isn't too much of a counter, just get infestors, and make sure you surround with your lings and then attack with muta's, the muta's will get roasted 1:1 stalker, but you should have a macro advantage.

Ultras/Brood lords both work, as they are gateway units and our hive tech units counter them. Its really your choice, Ultra's are easier to transition into than brood lords but if you already have a spire, brood lords seem fine.

I really depends though on positioning, and how well you macro. Flanking with zerglings, makes them go into a position they don't want to, and lets you roach hydra kill some free stuff.

Celadan

Norway471 Posts

January 09 2011 01:16 GMT

#30

now my formula is simple: surround with some speedlings and deal the damage with roaches.

In the bigger numbers where surround might not be possible i suggest hydra/roach/infestor as your composition.

but i think having superior macro will always be the best "counter".

i always go mutaling even if its mass blink stalker im up against, and win most of my ZvP's.
(doesent work on the tiny maps tho due to the low econ)

PorkyPlague797

United States31 Posts

January 09 2011 01:16 GMT

#31

I just played a game where i had around 3:2 roach to stalker and a handful of lings and it would crush him when ever he attacked, even when he added 2 or 3 immortals. also it kept working later in the game after 1/1 upgrades.

us.insurgency

United States330 Posts

January 09 2011 01:20 GMT

#32

On January 09 2011 08:46 Zeon0 wrote:
pure hydra sucks almost always, at least u should add lings as meatshield

Have you played the game? Hydras eat stalkers alive. They are soo good till the toss gets to tier 3.

metroid composite

Canada231 Posts

January 09 2011 01:37 GMT

#33

On January 09 2011 10:06 eth3n wrote:
hydra with level 2 ranged = 14 damage x .83 seconds = 16.86 dps
stalker with level 2 attack = 12 damage x 1.44 seconds = 8.33 dps

...and Stalkers have twice the HP and more defence, so they actually win that 1v1.

Honestly, if anything I feel like a stat comparison between Hydras and Stalkers makes Hydras look bad. Stalkers (barely) win the 1v1 even though their bonus damage is to armoured. Stalkers are faster. Stalkers are lower tech. Stalkers upgrade to Blink while Hydras upgrade to the range Stalkers have by default. On the Hydra side, they cost 25 less minerals. Oh, and I've heard them argued as better for their light armour. (I'm torn on that one: Marauders are nasty and they kill armour, but Banelings are also nasty and they kill light).

tuestresfat

2555 Posts

January 09 2011 01:41 GMT

#34

On January 09 2011 08:44 Dental Floss wrote:
The easy answer is ultralisks

I highly doubt that.

Bleb

Croatia278 Posts

January 09 2011 01:43 GMT

#35

On January 09 2011 10:06 eth3n wrote:
(stalker with level 2 attack = 17 x 1.44 seconds = 11.8 dps)
(roach with level 2 ranged = 20 damage x 2 seconds = 10dps)

stalker with +2 upgrades have
vs light : 12 dmg / 1.44 s = 8.33 dps
vs armored 16 dmg / 1.44 s = 11.11 dps

@OP are you talking about 1 base protoss or 2 base protoss? did you early expand? do you have roach warren? too little info...
general rule would be : scout - notice he's going for push - cut drones if needed - make units... lots of units... any units... put down spine crawlers if map allows it

Kpyolysis32

553 Posts

January 09 2011 01:44 GMT

#36

On January 09 2011 10:37 metroid composite wrote:

Show nested quote +

Stalkers also scale worse with armor upgrades, because half of their HP is shields. The reasons Hydras eat Stalkers even though they're so close in cost-effectiveness versus one another are 1) Hydras benefit hugely from having any tank in front of them (Lings or Roaches) and 2) Zerg typically has a little higher income than Toss and has more efficiently priced unit production facilities, so Protoss units have to be more cost effective to compensate.

Robellicose

England245 Posts

January 09 2011 02:39 GMT

#37

The highlight of using stalkers as protoss is that they can kite. And kite WELL. they have high movement speed compared to all early zerg units except speedlings. However, they lose effectiveness quickly.

Stalkers are terrible units late game. The main reason protoss like myself still keep them around is because sentries are even worse ground based anti-air.

if you build the same amount (cost wise) of speedlings as the toss has stalkers, you will crush them. When I'm using a stalker heavy army, my biggest fear is the zerg getting a sneaky force of lings behind me and flanking my stalkers. If that happens, they can't escape and they get munched. As a toss player I'd suggest flanking as one of the best ways to eliminate the threat of stalkers, as if they're forced into a straight up, non-moving fight they are very substandard units.

Madslash

United States23 Posts

January 09 2011 02:52 GMT

#38

On January 09 2011 10:37 metroid composite wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hydras vs stalkers in a straight up fight may be close, but it's so easy to just get some lings/roaches to soak up the damage while your hydras sit back and rip the stalkers apart.

Duban

United States548 Posts

January 09 2011 03:03 GMT

#39

Hydras vs stalkers in a straight up fight may be close, but it's so easy to just get some lings/roaches to soak up the damage while your hydras sit back and rip the stalkers apart.

All these numbers are forgetting one thing. Protoss have some of the most powerful force multipliers in the game. Sentries are the greatest force multiplier in the early game. Colossi and HTs wreck rows of Zerg and terran units in the late game. Protoss zealot/stalker may be weak in a straight fight, but that's only because sentries increase the effectiveness of their army so much.

Tl;DR: Stalkers are fine because of protoss' powerful supporting units.