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On January 04 2011 07:52 giuocob wrote:
Mid diamond protoss player here. The one thing that shuts down my gateway+storm endgame is hellions, of all things. They are extraordinarily good at sniping HT, which, unless you are extremely mindful of your army, will always end up behind everything. They're also very good against zealots. I'd recommend having a dedicated small groups of hellions to just run around the map and snipe things when you get the opportunity...and trust me, you'll get plenty.
Yep hellions are vital vs. Toss late game IMHO.
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Check out MLG Dallas, Jinro vs Socke, game 2. Jinro uses Tanks+marauders+ghosts (ghosts used for nukes as well as EMP). It's by no means an easy game for either player though.
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United States17042 Posts
oh man, there are a bunch of things that you can do better that game other than just looking at ht. You should really worry about scouting better, as it took you a while to determine when his third, fourth, and nat were up (not in that order). You also need to think about when to use scans, instead of just using mules - sometimes, the additional information is worth much more than the additional minerals.
The protoss had more gas, less minerals than you, but had a ton of sentries. The key for T is to balance gas going towards EMP, and the gas going towards bio (if they want to go MMM/ghost/viking, instead of Tank/hellion/thor). If you had better scouting, you can cut corners (example, you shouldn't ever need to go 3 rax/bunker, unless you were having trouble against 4 gate (which you should scout, and then throw up bunkers).
In addition, if you micro'd your maruders out of the storms, you would have had a better chance - maruders can survive one whole storm, but when you combine that with the feedback that should be going on your medvacs, healing your army again takes forever.
So...Better scouting = more emp's/less vikings, and you can/should (which you were) go a maruder heavy composition because they just live longer against protoss splash damage.
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On January 04 2011 07:52 giuocob wrote:
Mid diamond protoss player here. The one thing that shuts down my gateway+storm endgame is hellions, of all things. They are extraordinarily good at sniping HT, which, unless you are extremely mindful of your army, will always end up behind everything. They're also very good against zealots. I'd recommend having a dedicated small groups of hellions to just run around the map and snipe things when you get the opportunity...and trust me, you'll get plenty.
Quoted for truth. I'm a 2400 Diamond Protoss and I'm happy when I see Ghosts, but when the T goes Hellions I curl up in to a little ball and cry myself to GG.
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Yeah Hellion are pretty good agaisn't Zealot and HT, they are really fast so you can run around and poke at zealot or even off position templar.
Another good thing to do is to scout where the templar archive is, drop with with like 2 dropship full of marauder then run away (if you can).
Immediately after, move out with cloaked Ghost and Emp templars. Then you move out with your army with at least 2 unused ghost in case you missed some templars.
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As a protoss player, Hellions just ruin my day. =<
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I practiced a sort of mix between MM, ghosts and mech with a friend of equal skill. I asked him to play kind of randomly, rather than saying "just go ht's". He opened colossi, so that forced plenty of vikings. Then I scouted the templar archives as it was going down and threw down an additional 2 factories, and started upgrading mech. The resulting bio/mech composition actually worked pretty well.
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United States7483 Posts
Drop play (marauder drops with stim are awesome), and snipe key structures. Keep your opponent busy, and take out gas whenever possible. High Templars are very very expensive on the gas. If you can get the templar archives, that's huge.
Don't stop harassing just because it's the mid-late game!
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How about exploiting the timing window where Templar Archives was just built, to when Psi Storm finishes?
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mech vs protoss is just bad. I've been working with it for several days now, and to no avail. (2400 diamond)
Protoss players who i can crush with just MM will somehow beat me vs mech (or at least put up a good fight).
There are some replays of TvP mech floating around however.....
in every one of those replays you'll see that terran player completely outplayed the protoss players, so it really wouldn't make a difference if he went mech or bio
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Tanks by the time he gets his amulet out which i consider tier 3 since it takes two upgrades. You shouldnt still be only a complete bio composition if he goes HT go more tanks if he go Colossus get more vikings the warp in is annoying but HT cost 150gas to make and only very bad macro Toss can warp in more then 2 at a time after being EMPd. It gets real hard if the toss is real good and is spreading his HT and keeping them in the back with an obs on his army, to spot for cloak.
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Painuser has been doing some really cool stuff with Thors and cloaked Banshees in the late game vs Protoss. Use Thors to kill any observers in the area and move your cloaked Banshees in to wipe out his army. You'll have a lot of extra minerals when you do this so build a lot of Hellions like people have been saying to roast Zealots.
In my experience MMM + Ghosts gets rolled everytime.
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As a Protoss player, what really ruins storm usage is a Terran who is good at predicting when and where I'm going to storm.
You also need to change the way you attack. Standard terran timing is to stim, run in, and engage. Against an enemy with storms, particularly a lot of storms, you want to avoid stimming until the first storms go out, at which point you stim and move out.
You also want to try to, if the terrain and timing of the attack permits, spread out your units before you engage, so that when you do, you already have a concave and your units are in a line, not in a ball, making storms exponentially less effective.
When defending against a protoss who is attacking with storm support, make sure you have plenty of bunkers and keep them full of marines. The bunkers will die to the support units eventually, but as long as those marines are inside bunkers they won't die to storm and you won't have to worry about microing them against storm.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
keep the pressure and bait storm where ever you can. If you hold back and eangage at 200/200 or something his templars are going to have like so much energy with 20 storms which obliterates everything. Drop play, poking with infantry etc...
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This comes from a Platinum Terran, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but the way I deal with HTS early-game is to just EMP the shit out of them. Normally I just run a couple of marines ahead of my army to see where he is, that way I have more time to see where his HT are and hit them. My aim is always for the clump of army, but normally I have enough EMPs to just hit his whole army. Also that extra shield damage is excellent for your Bioball to abuse. If he gets his storms off i try to run my army out of the storm and then do some EMPing. If he only gets one or two storms off on me that I dodge rather quickly and I get to EMP his whole army thats a good trade for me.
Once I am on 3 or more bases I keep the minerals for MMG and start transitioning to BCs, which have absolutely no problem with HTs.
Splitting your army also helps, attack at three different places, his army will only be in one. Kill the 2 undefended places and pull back the army that is attacking into defenses, but dont forget to EMP everything you can before pulling back.
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Low diamond protoss player here. When I go HTs the thing that scares me in order of scariest are:
1. Good micro - Lower skill terrans just stim and try to run at me. I move my army away and storm ahead of his army making him run into the storm. Better players dance around. With EMP vs storm, whoever is advancing/chasing is at a disadvantage as their movements are predictable. I also try to peel small numbers of units to storm a large bio ball. Lower skill terrans just 1a around a giant ball and which is easy to harass with say 3 zealots, 2 HTs. Better terrans shut this down with cloacked ghosts sniping the HTs before they reach their main army or by peeling off small numbers of units to attack that are not worth storming.
2. Good macro - Trading armies is quite good for terran as protoss cannot replace their units as quickly as a terran spamming MMM. I've had many battles where I come out on top every time in engagements with HTs but just cannot keep up with the constant MMM onslaught. HTs really cannot hold the line in a cost effective manner vs a maruader heavy army.
3. Helions - I agree with giuocob on the helion point. When P gets HTs we end up with a ton of minerals which get spammed into zealots. Hellions are good not only vs HTs and zealots but are really good for late game harass. MMM drops are more expensive and protoss usually has excess minerals to spam cannons with. Plus if they watch minimap can feedback you medivacs. Hellions cost only minerals and come out of the factory which you wont use anyway if you are going MMM and arent that easily killed by cannons.
4. Turtling - HTs are great defensively but are not good for breaking down a fortified position. Use bunkers and PFs to give time to transition away from MMM
5. Ghosts - Protoss going HTs will be really gas starved and depending on how quickly they have rushed for HTs. Their mobile detection will not be that good. Cloaked ghosts can catch a protoss player off-guard and completely render useless a clump of HTs.
Also remember from another thread that even Blizz has acknowledged that PvT match-ups is a bit little bit broken. Terran has advantage in the early game while Protoss has an advantage in the late game. They said that in Korean diamond T was beating P because they can micro lots of drops that forces P to split forces up creating a state of play similar to the early game. So implies just kill P before he gets to late game.
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The scariest and most frustrating thing about that game was
+ Show Spoiler +He was EMPing as they warped in. Not many Ts seem to be doing this right now, but it really hurt my P soul to watch
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I go Thor/Banshee late-game just because of storm. May not be the best alternative, but I have an impressive late-gate record vs P.
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EPT
